A crime or a right? Some Danish Muslims defy face veil ban

[bristolboy]

13 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

@bristolboy. Your comments on this and other threads consist mainly of one liners and ad hominem attacks. They're not worth serious replies.

 

To make it easier for you, in terms of public figures that you may have heard of, my position on this is very similar to that of Richard Dawkins - one of the most highly respected scientists, academics and intellectuals, not just in the UK, but in the world.

 

I am a lifelong liberal and have always resisted illiberalism. Islam is the most illiberal of superstitions in the world today.

 

Richard Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist. He is not an authority on Islam. He may be a liberal about other matters. That is not proof that you are.

You have yet to produce any evidence that you have read even one book about Islam. As for your personal experience, who knows? You're anonymous here.  I do know people who have lived in Islamic nations. They don't seem to share your caricature view of Islam. But of course you're as free to disbelieve me about that as I am to disbelieve you. Especially since I am providing just as much evidence on that score as you are: namely, none.

 

[My Thai Life]

@simple "wrong"

 

wow....from one liners to one-worders. Can you let me know how the Danish government is limiting freedom of movement? I must have missed it in all the stimulating debate..

[mikebike]

19 hours ago, giddyup said:

The Danes disagree, and it's their country. Done deal.

To be clear and honest the Danish GOVT disagrees. I have yet to see a pole of the Danish people. If you have one, please share.

 

EDIT: Have now seen BB's linked article. Thanks!!

 

https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-ban-burqa-survey

Edited August 3, 2018 by mikebike

[vogie]

1 minute ago, mikebike said:

To be clear and honest the Danish GOVT disagrees. I have yet to see a pole of the Danish people. If you have one, please share.

Bristolboy posted the link yesterday.

[duanebigsby]

On 8/2/2018 at 9:04 AM, Ks45672 said:

Why not allow 70 million UK people to wear balaclavas in public ..... 

 

Society has progressed and Muslims will have to conform to the standards of the free world or go back to where they came from

 

 

It's not illegal to wear a balaclava but entering a bank or jewelry store might be a mistake.

[simple1]

2 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Much like the moslems (that arrived decades ago) that I met in the uk, the Thai Moslems where I live in Rawai, Phuket are great.  They are part of the community.

 

A few (possibly the majority? - I haven't cared enough to notice) wear a head covering - but certainly not a burka.

Exactly. The blanket hatred towards all Muslims on this forum is absurd, plus against forum rules. Yes there are  Islamists who commit terrible oppression and atrocities against their fellow Muslims and the rest of the world, focus on them and the push back by me and assumedly by others would cease.

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, mikebike said:

To be clear and honest the Danish GOVT disagrees. I have yet to see a pole of the Danish people. If you have one, please share.

The government is elected by the people, if the Danish population disagrees with their governments decision, they can voice their opposition, as with any democracy.

[stevenl]

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Much like the moslems (that arrived decades ago) that I met in the uk, the Thai Moslems where I live in Rawai, Phuket are great.  They are part of the community.

 

A few (possibly the majority? - I haven't cared enough to notice) wear a head covering - but certainly not a burka.

You're wrong, a few wear a burka.

 

Agree with the rest of your post.

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by stevenl

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, giddyup said:

The government is elected by the people, if the Danish population disagrees with their governments decision, they can voice their opposition, as with any democracy.

I don't know what the Danish constitution says, but I doubt Denmark is a pure democracy where a majority of citizen get to decide the rights of a minority.

[mikebike]

18 hours ago, jvs said:

Not good enough,do you agree there need to be rules in a society?

 

Of course.

 

It is a patently stupid question though.

 

Bluespunk's point was that citizens are allowed to protest "rules" (which most of us call "laws") which they do not believe in.

 

You may find it surprising that other Danish citizens protest "rules" as well...

 

https://nordic.businessinsider.com/80000-citizens-are-protesting-against-a-new-educational-law-by-the-danish-government-2017-1/

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, simple1 said:

Exactly. The blanket hatred towards all Muslims on this forum is absurd, plus against forum rules. Yes there are  Islamists who commit terrible oppression and atrocities against their fellow Muslims and the rest of the world, focus on them and the push back by me and assumedly by others would cease.

Perhaps we see the burka as a form of oppression.

[My Thai Life]

@Bristolboy

 

my reference to Dawkins was in response to your comment about scientists. I never suggested that Dawkins is an expert on Islam, though clearly he is far more expert than you.

 

He is an example of the British liberal intelligentsia which finds Islam illiberal. There are many others of course.

 

You seem to be driven by dogma, not facts or experience.

 

People like you do a great disservice to liberal muslims who are under siege both at home and in the UK/Europe.

 

[bristolboy]

If the face veil ban is truly about security, then there ought to be a balaclava ban as well.

[Jai Dee]

A deliberate troll comment has been removed from this thread.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, simple1 said:

Exactly. The blanket hatred towards all Muslims on this forum is absurd, plus against forum rules. Yes there are  Islamists who commit terrible oppression and atrocities against their fellow Muslims and the rest of the world, focus on them and the push back by me and assumedly by others would cease.

I agree about the "blanket hatred towards all Muslims on this forum" - but this thread is about banning the burka, with which I entirely agree.

 

Quite apart from anything else, the burka hardly endears those of that faith to the general population....

[bristolboy]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

@Bristolboy

 

my reference to Dawkins was in response to your comment about scientists. I never suggested that Dawkins is an expert on Islam, though clearly he is far more expert than you.

 

He is an example of the British liberal intelligentsia which finds Islam illiberal. There are many others of course.

 

You seem to be driven by dogma, not facts or experience.

 

People like you do a great disservice to liberal muslims who are under siege both at home and in the UK/Europe.

 

So now you concede that there are liberal Muslims? In fact, you haven't a clue about what percentage of the Muslim population in the UK could be identified as Islamist, do you?

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Exactly. The blanket hatred towards all Muslims on this forum is absurd, plus against forum rules. Yes there are  Islamists who commit terrible oppression and atrocities against their fellow Muslims and the rest of the world, focus on them and the push back by me and assumedly by others would cease.

The people shouting hardest now due to the security risk will also be the ones who are protesting hardest when they realise authorities can keep an eye on them 24/7 due to privacy concerns.

 

Which shows this is only about one thing: against Islam.

[My Thai Life]

@ Simple1. I have not expressed any hatred towards muslims.

 

If I may say so, you are missing the point. Yes, there are liberal muslims. Anyone who reads news from any mainstream source (my major MSM sources are The Guardian and the BBC) knows that these liberal muslims are under threat in their own countries. Many of them are murdered, or live under cover. Others seek refuge in liberal countries like ours.

 

Islam is the enemy of liberalism.

[dick dasterdly]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Much like the moslems (that arrived decades ago) that I met in the uk, the Thai Moslems where I live in Rawai, Phuket are great.  They are part of the community.

 

A few (possibly the majority? - I haven't cared enough to notice) wear a head covering - but certainly not a burka.

 

Just now, stevenl said:

You're wrong, a few wear a burka.

 

Agree with the rest of your post.

 

You said this before in a reply, but I can only repeat that having lived in the Rawai area for 12 years, I've only seen a burka a couple of times.

 

Normally I'd put it down to my being unobservant - but a burka stands out like a sore thumb!

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, stevenl said:

The people shouting hardest now due to the security risk will also be the ones who are protesting hardest when they realise authorities can keep an eye on them 24/7 due to privacy concerns.

 

Which shows this is only about one thing: against Islam.

Not really....

 

I'm not at all keen about the way it's possible to 'keep track of us 24/7' (reminds me too much of '1984') - but that's an entirely different discussion IMO.

[mikebike]

18 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

The world is a much different place to-day from 1985. Especially in regards to militant Muslims. Take a look at what Muslim girls were wearing in the 50’s Cairo. Now a days they wear far more conservative cloths, otherwise they could be attacked and probably sexually assaulted.

My first Muslim experience, Libya the early 60’s.

You may not have caught the drift in the convo I was having. The other poster was attempting a "gotcha" moment ...

 

Anyway, what makes you think I am not as aware as you or anyone else as to the changes which have taken place in the ME in the last 3 decades? I live in a rural seaside village - but not on a desert isle!!

 

My point regarding secular ME of the 20th century was in response to a comment that all Muslims, BY NATURE are violent, radical, extremists. They are not. Many enjoyed a secular lifestyle until the laws in their countries were changed by a newly invigorated and well funded emerging radical, theologically right-wing, fundamentalist sects either being handed power through external "regime change"  or internal military struggles.

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, mikebike said:

My point regarding secular ME of the 20th century was in response to a comment that all Muslims, BY NATURE are violent, radical, extremists.

I don't remember seeing that comment.

 

[mikebike]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

Bristolboy posted the link yesterday.

Yeah... a few more pages of reading before I saw it!!

[stevenl]

12 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

You said this before in a reply, but I can only repeat that having lived in the Rawai area for 12 years, I've only seen a burka a couple of times.

 

Normally I'd put it down to my being unobservant - but a burka stands out like a sore thumb!

2 on a motorbike yesterday coming from the market.

[stevenl]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not really....

 

I'm not at all keen about the way it's possible to 'keep track of us 24/7' (reminds me too much of '1984') - but that's an entirely different discussion IMO.

It is not a different discussion if people claim to be against wearing a burka due to security issues.

[mikebike]

5 hours ago, giddyup said:

The subject is the burka, and it's possible misuse, not whether border control was doing it's job, and I'm not sure if that legislation was in place in 2006, and the fact remains that it was the burka that allowed this lowlife to escape.

The subject is the burka, so when you use this particular example of a criminal escaping using one to bolster your position it is appropriate and logical to question the circumstances.

 

I'd also question whether the burka is the only disguise which has been successfully used in this manner, and whether there was any payment indicating an inside helper...

[mikebike]

4 hours ago, giddyup said:

The offense would not have been possible without the burka, put any spin on it you like, the fact remains. I guess you blame the bartender for allowing the drunk driver to get behind the wheel? Everyone is at fault except the actual perpetrator.

Yes, the offense would have been possible without a burka. Do you honestly believe no-one has ever evaded airport security wearing a disguise other than a burka?

 

Ban wigs and facial surgery!!

Edited August 3, 2018 by mikebike

[duanebigsby]

23 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Never mind how one looks on it - wearing a full, face-covering burqa is contradictory to the secular 'norms' of western countries.

The wearing of a cross is also contradictory to secular norms but the practice isn't banned.

 

[dick dasterdly]

13 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

You said this before in a reply, but I can only repeat that having lived in the Rawai area for 12 years, I've only seen a burka a couple of times.

 

Normally I'd put it down to my being unobservant - but a burka stands out like a sore thumb!

 

Just now, stevenl said:

2 on a motorbike yesterday coming from the market.

Again, I can only say that your 'experience' of living in Rawai is entirely different to my experience!

[VocalNeal]

4 minutes ago, duanebigsby said:

The wearing of a cross is also contradictory to secular norms but the practice isn't banned.

 

Agreed but a cross doesn't hide the identity of the wearer. Easy really just make benefit collection a personal matter and the claimant must be pass a facial recognition test.

 

Make access to public buildings based on facial recognition. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by VocalNeal