Boris Johnson slammed over Islamophobic comments

[7by7]

9 hours ago, Opl said:

 

+ be able to explain the legacy of the Magna Carta

 

[7by7]

8 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

 

The 6% figure apparently comes from the mcb, based on an unbelievably flawed method, but of course the "muslim council" wouldn't have an agenda would they. 

 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/22-muslim-women-say-they-dont-speak-english-or-dont-speak-it-well/

 If you read the article fully, you will see that Cameron is talking about people who do not yet have ILR. Your census figures include everyone, no matter when they first came to the UK and their immigration status.

 

The MCB's method 'unbelievably flawed?' Not perfect, and they were comparing apples with oranges to a certain extent; but there was a reason. As the Full Fact report says, at the time the census figures did not break down English ability by religion; so the MCB had to use an alternative method.

 

As already explained to you, for many years immigrants from all countries and of all religions had little incentive to learn English.

 

Now they have to, or they wont be allowed to stay.

 

Obviously, there are still substantial numbers who achieved settled status in the UK, even naturalisation, before the rules changed. But changed those rules have and the problem you are so concerned about is gradually solving itself.

 

Twenty years ago my local council produced leaflets etc. in a number of languages; including Urdu. Now, they're in English only.

 

BTW, to obtain PR in Thailand, let alone Thai citizenship, one has to be able to speak Thai. How many here who criticise non English speakers in the UK can speak Thai, I wonder. Of course, they can get by without learning Thai with their non immigrant visas or by border runs; but neither of those are an option for immigrants in the UK. If you can't meet the requirements for FLR, including the language one, then at best you will be faced with a lengthy and expensive court case (no legal aid for such appeals); at worst an immigration detention centre followed by deportation.

 

BTW: still waiting for you to say where in the UK you live. Considering that you have consistently lambasted Chomper Higgot for not revealing his nationality, said this means that he is not British and therefore unqualified to comment on UK matters and accused him of having some form of hidden agenda as he wont tell you his nationality, I find your refusal to answer this simple question baffling!

 

So come on; where do you live?

[7by7]

4 hours ago, cmsally said:

Trying to have a conversation with anyone that hides their face is going to be difficult. Depending on the situation we always need NVC to make sense and make decisions about what people say. The 7/38/55 study was extreme but we certainly use NVC a lot .

 Which is why Muslim women who wear a burka or niqab must remove it in a court of law before entering a plea, if the accused, or giving evidence.

 

Many NHS trusts also say that frontline staff who speak to patients must not have their faces covered during their shift, some have banned them completely, for the same reason.

 

Other employers may ban them, even hijabs and chadors for health and safety reasons, or even due to a uniform code. Otherwise they can only legally ban them if all religious symbols and modes of dress are banned.

 

Source; Full Fact.

[Opl]

49 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

I'm not sure you'll like it, but it was possible a few years ago

 

[My Thai Life]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

If you read the article fully, you will see that Cameron is talking about people who do not yet have ILR. Your census figures include everyone, no matter when they first came to the UK and their immigration status.

 

The MCB's method 'unbelievably flawed?' 

 

BTW, to obtain PR in Thailand, let alone Thai citizenship, one has to be able to speak Thai. 

 

BTW: still waiting for you to say where in the UK you live. Considering that you have consistently lambasted Chomper Higgot for not revealing his nationality, said this means that he is not British and therefore unqualified to comment on UK matters and accused him of having some form of hidden agenda as he wont tell you his nationality, I find your refusal to answer this simple question baffling!

 

> Yes I read the article, I posted it! Cameron is talking about 22% of muslim women who cannot speak English. The census figures also show 22%. You're saying this is a different 22%? Up to you, but it doesn't change the point. 

 

> Yes the "muslim council" method was unbelievably flawed. So flawed it's hard to believe they'd release such nonsense. But that's ok with you because it fits your agenda, and obviously it fits theirs too.

 

> Re your point about PR in Thailand. I agree with you completely. The Thai approach to residence and citizenship control is far superior to the UK's. I have already made this point earlier on this or a related thread.

 

> I haven't lambasted anyone for not revealing their nationality. I have suggested that certain topics do require some relevant experience to make informed comment. I would say that this topic requires experience of the UK, particularly those areas most adversely affected by muslim immigration (Woking is not one now is it old bean), and of living in the muslim world. I have pretty substantial experience of both.

 

> Do you really live in Woking? If so you must be keeping really strange hours given the timing of your visits to  this forum.

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by My Thai Life

[My Thai Life]

9 hours ago, Naam said:

no, but i lived a number of years in Saudi Arabia (Al Khobar and Jeddah) two cities adversely affected by Westerners during my time.

So you have half the picture then, that's good.

 

I lived a number of years in Riyadh with regular visits to Jeddah. I was about to fly to Al Khobar to start a new assignment when the extremists blew up that compound and all internal travel was frozen; and the project was subsequently canned.

 

I'm not sure what kind of westerners you were involved with that had such an "adverse" effect on Saudi, but I and my colleagues were invited into the kingdom and paid handsomely for our expertise.

[notmyself]

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 7:05 AM, oldgit said:

Boris is just participating in an age old British tradition of observational comedy. We take the p**s out of each other, with the way we look and act, so anybody taking up residence in the UK, better get used to it as well.

 

British humour is well respected.

 

 

To get back on topic this whole deflection is so people are talking about a side non issue rather than the issue itself. The sad thing is that it works well within the population of the U.K. and in fact, the entire globe, Islam is no better or worse in this regard. Is attire being used a weapon? I think you will find that even most saps will agree it does but for fear of accusations of racism, sexism, being called an Islamophobe or anti-Semite or any other term they will not talk about it.

 

This entire thing is politically driven with the method being something (anything) to avoid talking about also anything. It's global because the subject could also be anything, which in this case is political, so any political question. When I say 'boy who cried wolf' I don't mean only the meaning of the story but that sometimes there is indeed a wolf. Does Islamophobe or pick a number exist? Yes of cause. This is where the media should step up but no way will they point it out, also because of fear. Point out that people can fear an ideology and in come the nutters shouting that it must mean they also must hate the people who believe it. Boom! TV forum run a tight ship here so I'll pick my words carefully.

 

5) You will not use Thaivisa as a platform to gather support to effect changes on religious, political, or governmental issues.

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/terms/

 

The will, feeling, vibe or direction of the British population is becoming less corporatist and has been for quite some time. With corporatism comes a need for subjection at any cost so leaving the EU takes out some of their back-up/ bodyguards/ pointmen. People are now starting to ask questions of domestic politics and they are not good. Tories just jumped on the back of the also corrupt AF Labour party (loyalists) trying to attempt the anti-Semitism angle. Ah but people are easily duped.

 

I'm offended they say... well I'm offended by them being offended. Here's a couple of sheets of paper and a crayon... take your time and see if you can find how being offended has some special meaning. 

 

 

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

 

> Yes I read the article, I posted it! Cameron is talking about 22% of muslim women who cannot speak English. The census figures also show 22%. You're saying this is a different 22%? Up to you, but it doesn't change the point. 

 

> Yes the "muslim council" method was unbelievably flawed. So flawed it's hard to believe they'd release such nonsense. But that's ok with you because it fits your agenda, and obviously it fits theirs too.

 

> Re your point about PR in Thailand. I agree with you completely. The Thai approach to residence and citizenship control is far superior to the UK's. I have already made this point earlier on this or a related thread.

 

> I haven't lambasted anyone for not revealing their nationality. I have suggested that certain topics do require some relevant experience to make informed comment. I would say that this topic requires experience of the UK, particularly those areas most adversely affected by muslim immigration (Woking is not one now is it old bean), and of living in the muslim world. I have pretty substantial experience of both.

 

> Do you really live in Woking? If so you must be keeping really strange hours given the timing of your visits to  this forum.

 

But you have repeatedly claimed that certain posters are not of British nationality even though they have not claimed any particular nationality. This is just a cheap way of delegitimizing their comments.

In addition, just because a poster claims he or she is British is not proof that this is the case. And since you can neither prove the nationality of others or yourself, what is the point of dwelling on it at all?

 

And then there is the question whether a UK background is even germane. We have instances of posters commenting about Islam in the UK who claim to be widely read in studies of Islam yet refuse to cite even one book that they have read.

 

In both cases, if the evidence offered is not independently verifiable, why should it be credited at all?

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And then there is the question whether a UK background is even germane. We have instances of posters commenting about Islam in the UK who claim to be widely read in studies of Islam yet refuse to cite even one book that they have read.

Well I'd say some relevant knowledge is germane to any informed discussion. But of course others are welcome to their opinion. 

 

Not only have I read extensively about Islam in the works of muslim writers, I have lived for quite a few years in various muslim countries and worked extensively with muslims.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

I'm not sure what kind of westerners you were involved with that had such an "adverse" effect on Saudi, but I and my colleagues were invited into the kingdom and paid handsomely for our expertise.

i was not involved with Westerners who had an adverse affect but the behaviour of many khowajas in public made us foreigners  (who tried to adhere to Saudi customs and traditions) feel ashamed. the latter in a way how i feel ashamed when i cross the property line to go downtown  and see how many Farangs (tourists and residents) behave in Thailand. that we all were paid very "hansumly" goes without saying. 

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, Naam said:

i was not involved with Westerners who had an adverse affect but the behaviour of many khowajas in public made us foreigners  (who tried to adhere to Saudi customs and traditions) feel ashamed.

So we have a few things in common anyway, that's nice to know. I was the only westerner in the various large multinational corporations that I worked for who didn't want to live in a compound, and who chose to live independently (in a discrete hotel, where I was the only "paleface"). I'd like to digress further, but, in the interests of the topic, I won't. Have a good day.

 

 

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Not only have I read extensively about Islam in the works of muslim writers, I have lived for quite a few years in various muslim countries and worked extensively with muslims.

And this claim of yours is independently verifiable how? In other words you make a claim to experiecne that is unprovable and use that claim to assert that your opinions are more informed than those of others. What probative value should such claims have. It's clear that the answer is none.

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

And this claim of yours is independently verifiable how?

Well I'm not in the habit of lying about my experience. But I think in the interests of this thread we should move on.

[cmsally]

17 minutes ago, Naam said:

i was not involved with Westerners who had an adverse affect but the behaviour of many khowajas in public made us foreigners  (who tried to adhere to Saudi customs and traditions) feel ashamed. the latter in a way how i feel ashamed when i cross the property line to go downtown  and see how many Farangs (tourists and residents) behave in Thailand. that we all were paid very "hansumly" goes without saying. 

So whilst it would be expected of Westerners to behave and carry themselves in accordance with local customs in foreign countries; surely Westerners could expect visitors/immigrants to their countries to do the same. One of those customs being we expect people to reveal their face in public and treat women as equals.

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, cmsally said:

So whilst it would be expected of Westerners to behave and carry themselves in accordance with local customs in foreign countries; surely Westerners could expect visitors/immigrants to their countries to do the same. One of those customs being we expect people to reveal their face in public and treat women as equals.

And since citizens of the UK can be imprisoned for voicing unfavorable opinions about a  country they reside in, then foreigners should expect to be imprisoned for voicing unfavorable opinions about the UK if they reside there.

That's one way to justify lowering the level of freedom in the UK.

Since when did the UK adopt the standards of governance of less free nations?

 

[Naam]

15 minutes ago, cmsally said:

So whilst it would be expected of Westerners to behave and carry themselves in accordance with local customs in foreign countries; surely Westerners could expect visitors/immigrants to their countries to do the same. One of those customs being we expect people to reveal their face in public and treat women as equals.

i don't expect any Muslim lady to reveal her face to me, i don't expect to shake hands with any Indian lady (no matter whether she is a Hindu, Sikh or Muslim) because it's not the done thing.

 

it is none of my business to criticise "unfamiliar" behaviour but i do not condone that women are treated badly according to customs and traditions in some societies and that is not limited to Islamic ones. by the way... "treated badly" is a matter of perspective.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Naam

[cmsally]

6 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And since citizens of the UK can be imprisoned for voicing unfavorable opinions about a  country they reside in, then foreigners should expect to be imprisoned for voicing unfavorable opinions about the UK if they reside there.

That's one way to justify lowering the level of freedom in the UK.

Since when did the UK adopt the standards of governance of less free nations?

 

In which case Boris should be allowed to say what he likes about Muslim head coverings, as the UK has freedom of speech.

 

[vogie]

50 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

But you have repeatedly claimed that certain posters are not of British nationality even though they have not claimed any particular nationality. This is just a cheap way of delegitimizing their comments.

In addition, just because a poster claims he or she is British is not proof that this is the case. And since you can neither prove the nationality of others or yourself, what is the point of dwelling on it at all?

 

And then there is the question whether a UK background is even germane. We have instances of posters commenting about Islam in the UK who claim to be widely read in studies of Islam yet refuse to cite even one book that they have read.

 

In both cases, if the evidence offered is not independently verifiable, why should it be credited at all?

I think it would be fair to say that someone like you who appears to have had a good education, would spell words like humour the english way and not humor the american way. Not that I am bothered, it's just an observation.?

[cmsally]

4 minutes ago, Naam said:

i don't expect any Muslim lady to reveal her face to me, i don't expect to shake hands with any Indian lady (no matter whether she is a Hindu, Sikh or Muslim). it is none of my business to criticise "unfamiliar" behaviour but i do not condone that women are treated badly according to customs and traditions in some societies and that is not to Islamic ones. by the way... "treated badly" is a matter of perspective.

In their own countries and cultures that is fine. But if they move to the UK (presumably because it is beneficial in many ways) then they should be expected to behave in ways appropriate to that culture. If that means exposing their face , shaking hands etc then that is what they should do; it is regarded as polite and appropriate.

Just as one takes off shoes to enter a house, wais instead of handshake, speaks Thai etc here - because it is polite and situation/location appropriate; I would have the same expectations for others to behave appropriately in UK.

[bristolboy]

30 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Well I'm not in the habit of lying about my experience.

And this is provable how?

[My Thai Life]

22 minutes ago, cmsally said:

In their own countries and cultures that is fine. But if they move to the UK (presumably because it is beneficial in many ways) then they should be expected to behave in ways appropriate to that culture. If that means exposing their face , shaking hands etc then that is what they should do; it is regarded as polite and appropriate.

Just as one takes off shoes to enter a house, wais instead of handshake, speaks Thai etc here - because it is polite and situation/location appropriate; I would have the same expectations for others to behave appropriately in UK.

Exactly, just as women from all over the world have to wear some form of head covering in public in Saudi Arabia.

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, cmsally said:

In which case Boris should be allowed to say what he likes about Muslim head coverings, as the UK has freedom of speech.

 

Boris is allowed to say what he wishes.

 

He just has to accept the consequences for what he says.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Exactly, just as women from all over the world have to wear some form of head covering in public in Saudi Arabia.

 

Not true.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Exactly, just as women from all over the world have to wear some form of head covering in public in Saudi Arabia.

 

So the Saudi culture of intolerance is something to be emulated in the UK?

[cmsally]

15 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Boris is allowed to say what he wishes.

 

He just has to accept the consequences for what he says.

The case of Salman Rushdie and the Satanic Verses comes to mind. Often Islamic intolerance is not confined to national borders..

[Julie H]

Hello

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, cmsally said:

In their own countries and cultures that is fine. But if they move to the UK (presumably because it is beneficial in many ways) then they should be expected to behave in ways appropriate to that culture. If that means exposing their face , shaking hands etc then that is what they should do; it is regarded as polite and appropriate.

Just as one takes off shoes to enter a house, wais instead of handshake, speaks Thai etc here - because it is polite and situation/location appropriate; I would have the same expectations for others to behave appropriately in UK.

Your argument falls apart when people are born, raised and educated in the UK but choose to adopt customs or forms of dress you believe to be ‘foreign’.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

30 minutes ago, cmsally said:

The case of Salman Rushdie and the Satanic Verses comes to mind. Often Islamic intolerance is not confined to national borders..

Often people attribute the actions or words of a minority to the majority.

 

[Opl]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your argument falls apart when people are born, raised and educated in the UK but choose to adopt customs or forms of dress you believe to be ‘foreign’.

 

 

when people choose their religion to be their Identity 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Opl

[Naam]

2 hours ago, cmsally said:

2 hours ago, Naam said:

i don't expect any Muslim lady to reveal her face to me, i don't expect to shake hands with any Indian lady (no matter whether she is a Hindu, Sikh or Muslim). it is none of my business to criticise "unfamiliar" behaviour but i do not condone that women are treated badly according to customs and traditions in some societies and that is not to Islamic ones. by the way... "treated badly" is a matter of perspective.

In their own countries and cultures that is fine. But if they move to the UK (presumably because it is beneficial in many ways) then they should be expected to behave in ways appropriate to that culture. If that means exposing their face , shaking hands etc then that is what they should do; it is regarded as polite and appropriate.

Just as one takes off shoes to enter a house, wais instead of handshake, speaks Thai etc here - because it is polite and situation/location appropriate; I would have the same expectations for others to behave appropriately in UK.

exposing face YES, shaking hands NO. one of my closest friends since a few decades is a hassidic Jew living in Belgium. he jokes with my wife, makes fun of her accent when they converse in French, even telling her 'piquante' jokes but he would never touch her or shake her hand. we consider that as normal and pull his leg making jokes about his appearance (which he doesn't mind).