UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Kieran00001]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

right, ta

 

same goes for some of these small islands off Germany in the North Sea then?

tax free areas - splendid for week end piss ups

and excellent for pleasure crafts going to Norway

 

 

seems to me that EU has amassed an awful lot of incongruent arrangements re borders and tax arrangements over the years

 

so another hack re NI should maybe not be a big thing

 

 

Its not that they couldn't make an arrangement for NI, its that they have categorically stated that they won't.  And to be honest, comparing tiny holiday islands with Northern Ireland is ludicrous, the issue it not just about money like those places, in Ireland its about peace and security.

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

A sea border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK is what they are talking about, something that has already been rejected by the EU, so that will not happen, they will not allow the UK to have some access to the common area in Northern Ireland and not have access to the same for the rest of the UK, its all or nothing with them.

 

And the DUP have stated that a deal that closes the border will result in them pulling out of the coalition and shutting down government, May's only option is to keep the border open, something that the EU also will not allow unless we also agree to the four freedoms, which were the reason people voted to leave.

 

Best chance now is to dissolve parliament, have a GE and then new government can try to negotiate some more time with the EU, which would probably come with the clause that we have to hold a second referendum.

Sorry, maybe I am daft but I don't understand what you say re sea border.

How can you possibly not have a sea border between UK and Ireland after Brexit?

 

Yes, I understand the DUP stance. But what does the national assembly or the government of Ireland think

re this border? Important or not important?

 

Ha! at last some humour! Request for more time, granted if 2nd ref is arranged?

That would be the day!

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

2 hours ago, damascase said:

Another fine example of blaming the EU for something that is the responsibility of the UK and the result of the complete absence of any forward thinking.

 

Blame blame blame. This whole thing has become one big mud-slinging match.

 

I'm Not sure why you or anyone else would see the issues of border controls and customs checks etc. as the sole responsibility of the UK? The British people voted to Leave the club, as is their (and should be) the right of any member state. Once this happens the country doesn't simply disappear from the world, far from it. And since we're the largest market for the EU and co-operate on a number of important international affairs/directives and have so many historically significant ties, surely these issues should be approached as a joint venture with as much cooperation and good will as possible to ensure the new set up goes ahead smoothly.

 

To create friction unnecessarily seems to underscore the comments made by Hunt and others. Namely that the UK shall be penalised for going against the wishes of the big wigs within the EU, via a democratically delivered mandate I might add. Treated like a naughty school child, as Juncker himself said, in so many words.

 

If it the European project is really all about altruism, mutual benefit and cooperation then punitive measures would not be seen as warranted nor would the atmosphere surrounding Brexit have turned as bitter or assailing as it has. 

 

It is fair to say that Brexit has been poorly planned and badly managed, I wouldn't argue that point, but equally true is the fact that this transition is totally unprecedented. So it was never going to be a straightforward process in practice, as there is seemingly no proper existing framework for its application.

 

Point is, surely working together would make more sense rather than continued reproaches and butting of heads from both sides. As we're gonna have to continue living together in the future after all. Cooperation should be paramount, we need to remain friendly and cooperative with the EU and yes, they very much NEED to reciprocate this feeling with the UK too. I don't like the EU, neither do a great many others, but while it still exists both the UK and the EU should do their best to work together for the common benefit of the people that constitute both.

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, damascase said:

Interesting, but useless questions posed, as full access to the Single Market is NOT a realistic option. Furthermore, where the EEA-type relation is mentioned one would still have ‘hard borders’ because there is truly free circulation of goods ONLY within the Customs Union, not within the EEA. So as far as Customs procedures/formalities are concerned there isn’t any difference between an EEA-type deal and a Canada-style agreement.

Why useless? Surely fundamental in deciding what type of Brexit we have? It's democratic to follow the will of the people.  Had we had something like this at the start we would have avoided rather a lot of acrimony. But I think acrimony is what some hard liners are all about!

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

If it the European project is really all about altruism, mutual benefit and cooperation then punitive measures would not be seen as warranted nor would the atmosphere surrounding Brexit have turned as bitter or assailing as it has. 

Some answers for you

 

[My Thai Life]

Some posters have expressed interest in the Irish border “issue” in the last day or two. So here’s a snippet that may help bring everyone up to date.

 

The ERG and Tusk-Barnier have consistently proposed a Free Trade solution. This would also deliver on the referendum result.

 

“Senior members of the Conservatives’ 60-strong European Research Group (ERG) have told The Telegraph they would support EU officials being stationed at UK ports after Brexit to break the impasse with Brussels.

The MPs, including Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, and Jacob Rees-Mogg, the ERG chairman, also suggest that they would support the Government enforcing EU rules on goods exported to the bloc by firms in this country.

Brexiteers regard both proposals as a significant concession to help avoid a “hard” border with Northern Ireland, while paving the way for a much looser relationship with the EU than under the “common rulebook” envisaged by Theresa May’s Chequers plan.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/10/06/brexiteers-offer-may-lifeline-will-see-eu-officials-based-uk/

 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

Sorry, maybe I am daft but I don't understand what you say re sea border.

How can you possibly not have a sea border between UK and Ireland after Brexit?

 

Yes, I understand the DUP stance. But what does the national assembly or the government of Ireland think

re this border? Important or not important?

 

Ha! at last some humour! Request for more time, granted if 2nd ref is arranged?

That would be the day!

 

 

IMHO the government of Eire will do what the EU commission wants them to do or they will be in trouble with the EU, and the government of N Ireland (2 separate countries BTW) will in the end, under great protest and at great expense, will do what the UK national government wants, assuming that they want to stay in power.

[tebee]

23 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

IMHO the government of Eire will do what the EU commission wants them to do or they will be in trouble with the EU, and the government of N Ireland (2 separate countries BTW) will in the end, under great protest and at great expense, will do what the UK national government wants, assuming that they want to stay in power.

Of course, one of the problems is that there isn't a government in Northern Ireland at the moment.

[Kiwiken]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

Of course, one of the problems is that there isn't a government in Northern Ireland at the moment.

They could always join in Union with the Southern part of Ireland. Like that has be successful over the past 100 years.

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

Sorry, maybe I am daft but I don't understand what you say re sea border.

How can you possibly not have a sea border between UK and Ireland after Brexit?

 

Yes, I understand the DUP stance. But what does the national assembly or the government of Ireland think

re this border? Important or not important?

 

Ha! at last some humour! Request for more time, granted if 2nd ref is arranged?

That would be the day!

 

 

A sea border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK as opposed to a land border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and no sea border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, there will always be a sea border between the Republic of Ireland and the rest of the UK, its just the Northern Ireland one that the EU will not accept.

[7by7]

50 minutes ago, Kiwiken said:

They could always join in Union with the Southern part of Ireland. Like that has be successful over the past 100 years.

 

The majority of Northern Irish are Unionists.

 

If offered the choice of becoming part of the Republic and remaining in the EU or remaining in the UK and so leaving the EU most Unionists would choose the latter.

 

May has made it clear that as far as she is concerned, Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until and unless the majority of it's citizens decide otherwise. That is non negotiable; and rightly so.

[tebee]

51 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

The majority of Northern Irish are Unionists.

 

If offered the choice of becoming part of the Republic and remaining in the EU or remaining in the UK and so leaving the EU most Unionists would choose the latter.

 

May has made it clear that as far as she is concerned, Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until and unless the majority of it's citizens decide otherwise. That is non negotiable; and rightly so.

According to the latest polls there is now a majority for union with the South if the UK leaves the EU.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

According to the latest polls there is now a majority for union with the South if the UK leaves the EU.

That's worrying!  So leave at any price anyone?  Not for me.  

 

I'd rather ditch Brexit than risk a break up of UK.

 

There's a real chance a measly 14% of voters are going to determine the future of this nation.

 

Little England!

[kwilco]

think this cartoon sums up Brexit for me........

 

 

[Stupooey]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

According to the latest polls there is now a majority for union with the South if the UK leaves the EU.

Possibly the only good thing to come out of Brexit if that happens.

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 

The majority of Northern Irish are Unionists.

 

If offered the choice of becoming part of the Republic and remaining in the EU or remaining in the UK and so leaving the EU most Unionists would choose the latter.

 

May has made it clear that as far as she is concerned, Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until and unless the majority of it's citizens decide otherwise. That is non negotiable; and rightly so.

48% Proddie and 45% Catholic, but many of the Proddies are pro EU, by 2021 the Catholics will be the majority

[billd766]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

According to the latest polls there is now a majority for union with the South if the UK leaves the EU.

 

What poll and where are the links to it?

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

What poll and where are the links to it?

I think this what he means:

 

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/poll-northern-ireland-voters-will-back-united-ireland-after-brexit-37275256.html

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

According to the latest polls there is now a majority for union with the South if the UK leaves the EU.

 

ok, but what kind of stance does the South have re this?

[Kieran00001]

13 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

ok, but what kind of stance does the South have re this?

 

You question whether the South would want to unify with the North?

[Kieran00001]

2 hours ago, kwilco said:

48% Proddie and 45% Catholic, but many of the Proddies are pro EU, by 2021 the Catholics will be the majority

Quote

Over half (52%) said they would vote for a united Ireland after Brexit, with 39% wishing to stay part of the UK.

In the event of Brexit with a hard border, 56% favoured a united Ireland, with 40% choosing to stay in the UK.

Should the UK somehow remain in the EU, the poll found that more than half (52%) would want to stay in the UK, with just 35% supporting a united Ireland.

Only around three quarters (73%) of those from a nationalist background said they would support a united Ireland if Brexit was avoided - compared to 94% wanting to leave the UK after Brexit.

Some 59% of those who didn't consider themselves unionist or nationalist supported a united Ireland after Brexit, but this dropped to 23% if Brexit was avoided.

 

[kwilco]

25 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

ok, but what kind of stance does the South have re this?

seriously?

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

You question whether the South would want to unify with the North?

 

Yes, would they welcome an opportunity to fold NI into Ireland or would they rather keep a distance to NI?

[Kieran00001]

8 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Yes, would they welcome an opportunity to fold NI into Ireland or would they rather keep a distance to NI?

 

Funnily enough there are not that many Orange sympathizers in Southern Ireland.  In a recent poll, 66% said they would like to see a united Ireland, while 14% said they would not, with 20% undecided.

[melvinmelvin]

6 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Funnily enough there are not that many Orange sympathizers in Southern Ireland.  In a recent poll, 66% said they would like to see a united Ireland, while 14% said they would not, with 20% undecided.

substantial,

66% plus some of those undecided 20%

 

this seems to be significantly higher than the %age in NI wanting to leave UK after Brexit

 

[tebee]

7 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Yes, would they welcome an opportunity to fold NI into Ireland or would they rather keep a distance to NI?

To this, I would point out that they already claim Northern Ireland as part of their territory eg. If you are born there you have Irish citizenship.

[Kieran00001]

6 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

substantial,

66% plus some of those undecided 20%

 

this seems to be significantly higher than the %age in NI wanting to leave UK after Brexit

 

 

Yes, just as everyone expects and how its been since the division.

[Srikcir]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

To this, I would point out that they already claim Northern Ireland as part of their territory eg. If you are born there you have Irish citizenship.

It makes sense for unification of Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland.

UK position seems to argue against it:

'No UK PM could ever agree to it': May condemns EU's power grab over Northern Ireland as Barnier says he is just being 'realistic' by demanding province obeys Brussels rules

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5444117/Brexiteers-accuse-EU-trying-ANNEX-Northern-Ireland.html

From an economic viewpoint, can ROI afford unification?

Northern Ireland has more of the identifiable spending per head than Scotland and Wales, receiving 21% more than the UK as a whole. In terms of investment if you look at how EU structural and investment funds are distributed among the nations, while Wales comes out on top Northern Ireland places second with England lowest in last place. https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40248345

 

[kwilco]

This gives the lie to some of the myths promulgated by Brexiteers...

You'll find examples on this thread.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by kwilco

[JAG]

39 minutes ago, tebee said:

To this, I would point out that they already claim Northern Ireland as part of their territory eg. If you are born there you have Irish citizenship.

The Republic formally relinquished that claim as part of the Good Friday Agreement.