UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[aright]

4 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

There is nothing undemocratic in calling for a second vote. 

 

I’m not calling for a vote on anything. 

 

Just disagreeing with the authoritarian position that there cannot be one. 

 

Edit: The EU is perfectly democratic. 

 

 

Tell me what part I played in the democratic election of Head Honcho Martin Selmayr then, and, what democratic process I can use to get rid of him.

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Stop clutching at straws......????

I clutching at democracy.

 

The problem we have is that a majority of our politicians do not have the fortitude to act according to what they really believe. A people's vote now would mean that they need not fear going against there constituents. They could chuck Brexit which is clearly the best decision for parliament to take

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Many of the posters are not even British.

And some are not even European.

[Bluespunk]

52 minutes ago, transam said:

Just to please remainers like you because you ain't happy........????

 

If it were the other way round you would be here shouting..

 

."No new vote comrades"...????

A: I'm not calling for a vote.

 

B: Just against the authoritarian anti democratic voices that would deny others the right to call for one.

 

c I would not be shouting any such thing.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Bluespunk

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, aright said:

Why would anyone want to use a democratic vote to stay in an undemocratic Union?

Well half of us did the first time!

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, aright said:

Tell me what part I played in the democratic election of Head Honcho Martin Selmayr then, and, what democratic process I can use to get rid of him.

Selmayr is a civil servant, not a politician. Most countries do not have elections for civil servants.

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, whatsupdoc said:

The article says the orchestra relies on EU funding. Only fair it is based in an EU country, not the UK.

 

 

Yes... a bit like the UK giving aid to India...

 

 

.... perhaps they should move Delhi to Surrey ?

 

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I am saying UK wanted to leave but central to that desire was a Free Trade Deal.  The heart said Leave (very important that), but the head said Free Trade deal. 

MB I'm really having difficulty understanding what you are saying. You've made the distinction between a Free Trade Deal and a Free Trade Agreement a couple of times. Can you let me know what the main differences are? Thanks.

[Bluespunk]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Tell me what part I played in the democratic election of Head Honcho Martin Selmayr then, and, what democratic process I can use to get rid of him.

The EU is a democratic body with rules for the election of officials that governments of countries who are members have agreed upon.

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Yes... a bit like the UK giving aid to India...

 

 

.... perhaps they should move Delhi to Surrey ?

 

So you want the EU to give aid to the UK????? Well maybe, depends on how bad Brexit will turn out to be for the UK.....

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, whatsupdoc said:

So you want the EU to give aid to the UK????? Well maybe, depends on how bad Brexit will turn out to be for the UK.....

 

 

You probably think that twisting words is a skill !

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

A second referendum on Brexit is pointless since it would also be indeterminate in that it would merely be 1-1 if Remain won... best of 3, 5, 7?.  I'm happy to sit with the UK's decision to Leave as being a genuine expression of what people want.

 

Yet we are left with something that is in fact undeliverable because of the pie in the sky promises under which Leave was secured.  Brexit must be shelved.  That's what happens when things go wrong in our own lives, in business, in just about anything where real life shows us it is not possible or nonsensical to continue.

A second opinion from the people after two years of enlightenment will allow weak MPs to do what they believe is the correct thing already - bury Brexit

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Yes... a bit like the UK giving aid to India...

 

 

.... perhaps they should move Delhi to Surrey ?

 

They moved it to Bradford

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The EU is a democratic body with rules for the election of officials that governments of countries who are members have agreed upon.

The rules weren't followed though were they. This is a quote from the Ombudsman. As you love democracy and due process so much I'm sure you're outraged.

 

"Based on the inspection of Commission documents, the Ombudsman inquiry has identified several issues of concern:

• Mr Selmayr did not recuse himself in January 2018 from the decision-making that led to the creation of the vacancy, and the approval of the vacancy notice, for the post of Deputy Secretary-General, despite the fact that it is highly likely he knew that he would apply for the post and later did so.
• At that point Mr Selmayr had to recuse himself from taking part in the Consultative Committee on Appointments (CCA), which interviews and gives an opinion on the merits of candidates. However, contrary to the applicable binding rules, no replacement was appointed.
• Documentary evidence of the sequencing of events shows that the Deputy Secretary-General appointment procedure was not undertaken to fill that post, but rather to make Mr Selmayr eligible for his immediate reassignment as the new Secretary-General.
• When valid concerns were raised in relation to how the surprise double-appointments were made, the Commission reacted in an evasive, defensive and legalistic manner, which served further to increase concerns."

[mommysboy]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

MB I'm really having difficulty understanding what you are saying. You've made the distinction between a Free Trade Deal and a Free Trade Agreement a couple of times. Can you let me know what the main differences are? Thanks.

In the context of this argument:

 

Free Trade Deal- AKA the single market. A deal as good as the deal the UK presently enjoys.  It was to be done in afternoon as I recall.

 

FTA- A deal rather similar to the Canada/EU deal.

 

(In my personal opinion a free trade deal is a simple exchange between people without further obligation and the EU free trade deal is no free trade deal at all since it attaches some pretty onerous terms, but that's another argument for another time).

 

I, too, am puzzled how a person of great intellect and experience can possibly believe the vote was as simple as you believe.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by mommysboy

[aright]

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

No reason there cannot be another vote before brexit.

Because of the fuss of the margin of the first referendum I am agreeable as many Remainers have said after the last vote, it is fair that it must be at least an equal or greater than a 65%:35% split whatever the outcome.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

The rules weren't followed though were they. This is a quote from the Ombudsman. As you love democracy and due process so much I'm sure you're outraged.

 

"Based on the inspection of Commission documents, the Ombudsman inquiry has identified several issues of concern:

• Mr Selmayr did not recuse himself in January 2018 from the decision-making that led to the creation of the vacancy, and the approval of the vacancy notice, for the post of Deputy Secretary-General, despite the fact that it is highly likely he knew that he would apply for the post and later did so.
• At that point Mr Selmayr had to recuse himself from taking part in the Consultative Committee on Appointments (CCA), which interviews and gives an opinion on the merits of candidates. However, contrary to the applicable binding rules, no replacement was appointed.
• Documentary evidence of the sequencing of events shows that the Deputy Secretary-General appointment procedure was not undertaken to fill that post, but rather to make Mr Selmayr eligible for his immediate reassignment as the new Secretary-General.
• When valid concerns were raised in relation to how the surprise double-appointments were made, the Commission reacted in an evasive, defensive and legalistic manner, which served further to increase concerns."

Good to see the checks and balances of the system catching such people out.

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Free Trade Deal- AKA the single market. A deal as good as the deal the UK presently enjoys.  It was to be done in afternoon as I recall.

Thanks. The single market provides for the 4 freedoms. How can anyone have said that was a target for Brexit?

 

The zero tariff zero quota proposed as the basis of a deal by Tusk more than once is still on the table. Johnson, Rees-Mogg & co are in agreement. This seems to me to honour the referendum result and provide the quickest and cleanest solution. 

[vogie]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

A second opinion from the people after two years of enlightenment will allow weak MPs to do what they believe is the correct thing already - bury Brexit

Bury Brexit = agree with you. ????

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

Thanks. The single market provides for the 4 freedoms. How can anyone have said that was a target for Brexit?

 

The zero tariff zero quota proposed as the basis of a deal by Tusk more than once is still on the table. Johnson, Rees-Mogg & co are in agreement. This seems to me to honour the referendum result and provide the quickest and cleanest solution. 

You see the single market option which indeed is clearly not compatible with Brexit, was replaced with a broad sword free trade deal which promised all the benefits of the single market, with all those of Brexit too.

 

I will check out the 'Tusk Deal'.  Yes, in principle that would be worthy. But it must roughly correspond.

[aright]

13 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

The EU is a democratic body with rules for the election of officials that governments of countries who are members have agreed upon.

Can you identify what rules allowed me to vote for Martin Selmayr and the rule which allows me to get rid of him. because I can't find them. You obviously know them since you feel the Union and the Commission were democratically elected.

Do the voting patterns of the last 2 years show that the electorate are satisfied with the undemocratic response to their needs? . 

[aright]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Those of us who are British are in this sh1t together, even if we don't live in the UK. 

What a funny statement akin to saying the vegetables in the fridge are in the same soup that's on the stove

[My Thai Life]

Here's a quote from Lord Wolfson, the CEO of Next, from today's Telegraph. Hope this will lighten some of the doom and gloom among our remain friends.

 

"The company I work for, Next, is one of the UK’s largest traders. We move over £4 billion of stock around the globe and cross most of the world’s customs borders. We have taken steps to ensure we have the administrative systems and legal structures needed to allow the business to continue to run smoothly – deal or no deal.

We have set up bonded warehouses, which allow us to defer customs payments until goods are distributed to shops and customers. That means goods can move across customs borders and between bonded facilities, without incurring duties.

Our preparations mean there will be little or no direct impact on our trading operations or costs, even from no deal Brexit."

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

but if the first vote isn't enactable in any form that was envisioned then what can we do?

 

It was envisioned by the majority that we would leave. So leave.

[aright]

33 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Good to see the checks and balances of the system catching such people out.

Had he been a British MP he would have been out on his ear but he is still in post.

So tell me how do I get rid f him?

[whatsupdoc]

18 minutes ago, aright said:

Can you identify what rules allowed me to vote for Martin Selmayr and the rule which allows me to get rid of him. because I can't find them. You obviously know them since you feel the Union and the Commission were democratically elected.

Do the voting patterns of the last 2 years show that the electorate are satisfied with the undemocratic response to their needs? . 

The power in the EU ultimately is with the EU parliament and yes there are regular elections for it. Did you miss that one??

 

The voting patterns do not suggest anything about what you seem to claim. Some anti-EU parties have gained yes but that might just as well be because of their xenophobic stance (it often goes together) and their growth seems to have stopped, possibly even reached its inherent maximum already. No country other than the UK is serious about leaving the EU, not even Greece. All in all, the EU is widely supported by its member countries and their citizens.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I don't quite understand your logic

 

GEs happen after a set period, or after a vote of no confidence. How can I influence that?

 

If you are referring to the EU referendum, it was a farce and has resulted in a pantomime. It is clearly moronic to lose what we have in return for intangible and unceasingly unlikely benefits.

 

I think a people's vote will enable parliament to overturn a moronic decision by the people.

It was only regarded as a farce by remoaners after the result was known! In fact they were quite enjoying it it up to that point! That is the real pantomime.

[Grouse]

I think May is on the ropes now

 

She was trying to protect the UK from as much damage as possible due to Brexit but it hasn't worked

 

If there is an election, she will definitely lose. What would the Cons put in their Manifesto about Brexit? It could result in a break up of the Tory Party

 

Best thing she can do is call for a peoples vote. If Labour speaks to DUP they could force it.

 

I believe that this would result in a majority in favour of remaining. Super majority is not required. These referendums are opinion polls only.

 

That would allow MPs to vote as they surely believe and bury brexit

 

She can then fall on her sword and the Tory party would survive in tact

 

I think a deal on restricting free movement IS possible for the whole of the EU

 

I think UK can negotiate to retain the rebates and opt outs.

 

If they can't, Ill do it.

 

 

[Esso49]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

I think May is on the ropes now

 

She was trying to protect the UK from as much damage as possible due to Brexit but it hasn't worked

 

If there is an election, she will definitely lose. What would the Cons put in their Manifesto about Brexit? It could result in a break up of the Tory Party

 

Best thing she can do is call for a peoples vote. If Labour speaks to DUP they could force it.

 

I believe that this would result in a majority in favour of remaining. Super majority is not required. These referendums are opinion polls only.

 

That would allow MPs to vote as they surely believe and bury brexit

 

She can then fall on her sword and the Tory party would survive in tact

 

I think a deal on restricting free movement IS possible for the whole of the EU

 

I think UK can negotiate to retain the rebates and opt outs.

 

If they can't, Ill do it.

 

 

She has been on the ropes for months,  Just trying all manner of things to fix up directorships once she resigns from the Tory party, hopefully soon, just like her buddy  David Cameron did.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

The article says the orchestra relies on EU funding. Only fair it is based in an EU country, not the UK.

Oh Gawd...