UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, vogie said:

It is part of the divorce separation from the EU, so it is very relevant.

I read the Schengen visa handbook a few times when I registered a visa violation with SOLVIT, something I did for the benefit of expats. Brexit has proved that thinking of others is not in anyone's interest.

 

SOLVIT, another service that the leavers think UK business can do without.

 

Unfair rules or decisions and discriminatory red tape can make it hard for you to live, work or do business in another EU country.

So, if you as an EU citizen or business face extra obstacles in another country because a public authority isn't doing what is required under EU law...

...SOLVIT can help.

SOLVIT reminds the authorities in question what your EU rights are and works with them to solve your problem.

http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index_en.htm

[sandyf]

Not quite cut and dried yet.

 

Negotiators have just 24 hours left to resolve outstanding issues with the Brexit deal if a summit on Sunday is to go ahead, Brussels has warned.

A senior EU official said on Wednesday that time was running out to produce a final text in time for the planned summit, with last-minute concerns around fishing rights and Gibraltar threatening to sink the plan.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-latest-eu-24-hours-deadline-summit-theresa-may-a8645301.html

[Henryford]

I don't see what the problem is, Theresa Chamberlain has given in to every EUSSR demand, what more do they want?

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

 

The thing is, had Farage lost and had he called for another vote, you know that the vast majority of the country would have ignored him and accepted the result, including those who voted leave. Farage hasn't been elected by leavers as an official spokesperson. So ok, call HIM a hypocrite if you like, but don't imply he speaks or spoke for other people. He certainly didn't when he spoke of another vote.

And on the subject of hypocrisy and the matter of another referendum, unless you are seriously telling me that remainers would have been supporting Farage his right to have another vote, supposing he lost the 2016 one, what does that make remainers? Are you seriously suggesting there were remainers sitting at home listening to Farage that night say that the fight would go on in the event of a narrow loss, thinking to themselves, the man has a good point. Of course not. They were thinking, what a imbecile who can't accept democracy. And now here they are, doing that exact same thing.

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I was one of those people watching him that night, and I had no problem with what he said. That is his life’s work. Same with the SNP after the Scottish referendum. Democracy is a process, not a stopped clock, where once the vote is in we are all locked in to a decision, with no right to change our mind or continue to campaign for what we think is right. Many leavers seem to think you just should fall in line and get behind it ... for a remainer that’s like joining a suicide pact. Remainers will go along with a Brexit that has a deal attached that minimises the economic damage, but nowhere on that ballot did it say we would crash out without one, all the prominent leave campaigners promised a great deal ... cake and eat it, they need us more than we need them, the EU will bend to our demands, German carmakers will put pressure on Merkel, the easiest deal in the world ... it turns out not to be. You might not like it, but to protest and overturn decisions is also democracy. You cannot overturn democracy with a universal vote. That is democracy.

[JAG]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Well there we have it. Unlike you my views are based on experience rather than "considerable thought". I was exporting around the world before and after the introduction of the single market and saw the benefits it brought to UK business. No one with an argument based on thought will ever convince me that things could ever be better outside the single market. We can only hope that the final outcome produces something nearly as good.

 

In 2016 as a member of the EU the UK had become the 5th largest economy by GDP, do you really think that being outside the EU that can be improved on?

 

The United Kingdom, with a $2.62 trillion GDP is the fifth largest economy in the world. When compared in terms of GDP PPP, UK slips to the ninth spot with a GDP (PPP) of $2.91 trillion. It ranks twenty third in terms of GDP per capita which is $39,734.59. Its nominal GDP is estimated at $2.96 trillion during 2018, but its ranking is expected to slide to the seventh spot by 2023 with a GDP of $3.47 trillion. 

https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/

None of what you now say nor the statistics which you quote (and with which I have no cause to argue) addresses my objections to your suggestions that I am an enthusiast for trade deals with despotic or unsavoury regimes, nor that my instinctive dislike of centralised unaccountable beaurocracy, overriding national government, is merely paranoia!

 

It is pretty obvious that by "considerable thought" I include reading and investigating the subject, together with my own various experiences over the years.

Edited November 22, 2018 by JAG

[rixalex]

I was one of those people watching him that night, and I had no problem with what he said. That is his life’s work. Same with the SNP after the Scottish referendum. Democracy is a process, not a stopped clock, where once the vote is in we are all locked in to a decision, with no right to change our mind or continue to campaign for what we think is right. Many leavers seem to think you just should fall in line and get behind it ... for a remainer that’s like joining a suicide pact. Remainers will go along with a Brexit that has a deal attached that minimises the economic damage, but nowhere on that ballot did it say we would crash out without one, all the prominent leave campaigners promised a great deal ... cake and eat it, they need us more than we need them, the EU will bend to our demands, German carmakers will put pressure on Merkel, the easiest deal in the world ... it turns out not to be. You might not like it, but to protest and overturn decisions is also democracy. You cannot overturn democracy with a universal vote. That is democracy.

You may not have had a problem with what he said, but are we really expected to believe you would have been arguing now in favour of another referendum, using the arguments you use above about democracy not being a stopped clock etc etc, had remain won? I'm sorry but I don't believe that. You'd be arguing that the vote had been cast and that people had to accept it and move on. And you would have been right. We can't forever be stuck in limbo, inbetween one decision and another. The vote was leave so we leave. If people don't like things once we have left, just like people didn't like things once we had joined in 75, they can campaign for change. That's democracy. You have a vote and the outcome of the vote is respected by winners and losers alike.

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[Grouse]

4 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

Bizarre.

Maybe you don't understand?

 

Right now our immigration system is out of control

 

We don't count people in, we don't count them out and we don't maintain records while they're here

 

So we don't know who has work and what they are being paid

 

We WILL reduce the numbers entering from the EU but increase the numbers coming from elsewhere

 

We already have the ability to throttle the flow from the EU generally and certain countries in particular but do not do so

 

As I say JFDI

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Maybe you don't understand?

 

Right now our immigration system is out of control

 

We don't count people in, we don't count them out and we don't maintain records while they're here

 

So we don't know who has work and what they are being paid

 

We WILL reduce the numbers entering from the EU but increase the numbers coming from elsewhere

 

We already have the ability to throttle the flow from the EU generally and certain countries in particular but do not do so

 

As I say JFDI

 

maybe there is a job and biz opportunity for Big Joke in UK

 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, vogie said:

Do you think you will have "its not the EUs fault" etched on your gravestone or will you be more truthfull and have 'the UK is to blame for everything'? Just wondering.

 

And as for speaking a foreign language, it is usually a case of 'needs must' I would suggest that because the world generally speaks english, there is less of an incentive for a Brit to learn a foreign language. That being said I know many Brits that indeed do speak a foreign language, infact the best Thai speakers (non Thai of course) I have come across are Brits. I personally speak French and German and I am struggling to learn Thai, so are you sure that this is just another attempt of yours to Brit bash.

Why do you so frequently misinterpret what I am saying?

 

My point was that if it's a Brit v Herr Schmidt (who is not a native English speaker) the Brit should get the job right?

 

The problem is that our "government" fails to keep proper computer records so do not know who is earning what and whether they have the right to work.

 

I blame the UK government mainly but we do have an increasing number of, er, twits in the population [frequently young people I note] I think this due to our underclass which accounts for an embarrassingly large percentage of our population.

 

I am not anti Brit I am anti moron though.

 

You will be please to note that my son, who is a captain with an airline not far from here, always signs off after "clear for take off" with "Cheerio" which is what all "Speedbird" (BA) pilots say! We're royalists also.

 

Did you see Slash in HK? Another first class Brit!

[rixalex]

 
We WILL reduce the numbers entering from the EU but increase the numbers coming from elsewhere
 

Good. Exactly what needs to happen.

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[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

 

Good. Exactly what needs to happen.

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why?

[rixalex]

 
We already have the ability to throttle the flow from the EU generally and certain countries in particular but do not do so

"Throttle the flow" is jargon speak that sounds good but we all know the truth of the matter is, if you're from the EU and you decide you fancy relocating to the UK, UK authorities can throttle away all they like, you'll still be able to waltz in freely.



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[BwindiBoy]

51 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Maybe you don't understand?

 

Right now our immigration system is out of control

 

We don't count people in, we don't count them out and we don't maintain records while they're here

 

So we don't know who has work and what they are being paid

 

We WILL reduce the numbers entering from the EU but increase the numbers coming from elsewhere

 

We already have the ability to throttle the flow from the EU generally and certain countries in particular but do not do so

 

As I say JFDI

It is you that does not understand.  And who the hell do you think you are, twice telling me to just <deleted> do it?!

[BwindiBoy]

31 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

 

Good. Exactly what needs to happen.

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Probably, but don't let the self proclaimed almighty Grouse's words be interpreted as anything other than his own opinion.

[rixalex]

why?

Judge immigrants by the person not by the passport.

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[anon537687643]

Leaving EU means UK CAN decide who comes ! Not some failing fake organisation and it’s bureaucratic leeches


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[damascase]

2 minutes ago, markaoffy said:

Leaving EU means UK CAN decide who comes ! Not some failing fake organisation and it’s bureaucratic leeches

Ahhh, another victim of ignorance...........

[anon537687643]

Ahhh, another victim of ignorance...........

Nah! Uk taxpayers are the victims! Damascase has all the ignorance !


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[transam]

3 minutes ago, damascase said:

Ahhh, another victim of ignorance...........

Where do you come from....????

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

Where do you come from....????

 

I come from Muhamedania

 

 

[Grouse]

On 11/16/2018 at 11:28 PM, mogandave said:

 

You were going to put together a list of specific reasons why brexit would not work.

 

OK, here are MY options and conclusions on why Brexit will not work

 

I am not going to give you loads of references. Look up yourself.

 

(A) because you want my opinions and views really

 

(B) Brexiters only read articles that agree with their point of view

 

1) Sovereignty is not an issue. We already have sovereignty which is why we are able to leave. I do believe that sharing some sovereignty in exchange for shared and increased benefits is a good thing. Brexit will take away many benefits that we have from sharing sovereignty such as shared common rights and standards. 

 

2) As I understand it, the 28 member EU already has trading agreements with about 80 countries. This is more than a third of the world. Leaving the EU means going back to the drawing board rather than increasing the number of deals. I do not think the EU alone will be able to get better deals because we are only about 10% the size of the EU market. Many of the countries that the EU does not have an agreement are frankly not worth the effort. As far as the huge economies are concerned we MUST be better off negotiating as a block

 

3) Alliances are good. Isolation is bad. Leaving a group like the EU looks bad and leaves a bad taste. We will be less likely to build alliances elsewhere

 

4) I appreciate the intangible benefits we obtain by being a member of the EU. Frankly I find many of our EU partners rather more civilised than the UK. I like their consensual approach, their social justice and yes, their social democracy.

 

5) Leaving the EU will accelerate the break up of the UK

 

6) Lower standard, cheaper food and clothing will be imported thus damaging our own farmers and what is left of our footwear and garment industries. Farmers will have to reduce standards to compete

 

7) The pound will crash. We will be lucky to maintain parity with EUR and USD and will certainly drop below 40Baht

 

8 )immigration will not reduce. We will get more immigrants from Africa and the sub continent. I am an anti muslim bigot so I am against that

 

9) It will be much more difficult to work in EU countries. Not impossible, difficult like getting a green card for the USA. I know, I have done both

 

10) It will be more difficult to buy property in countries where I have owned property before: Denmark, Germany and Switzerland

 

11) It will be more difficult to retire to an EU country. Not impossible but you will have to demonstrate proof of income for example. Poor pensioners can forget it.

 

12) We will lose out on all kinds of grants including regional grants and R&D grants. Don't tell me the government will fill the gap; they won't. And you know it. Cornwall is an excellent example.

 

13) There are myriad ways in which EU cooperation and coordination benefit us as a member. From security, through telecom, pharma, aviation, atomic energy, sat comm etc etc. No point trying do all this alone.

 

 

Then we get to the issues that are not an immediate effect of leaving but are likely to result

 

I] The Right wing Tory Brexiters (The Bastards) will exploit leaving the EU to reduce environmental and animal husbandry standards

 

ii] They will reduce corporation taxes with the result that government spend will reduce at the expense of the population generally

 

iii] Working conditions will be allowed to deteriorate including undermining the minimum wage, tax credits and benefits generally

 

iv] In short they want a low cost, low benefit, low quality, low rent, low tax offshore trading machine to compete with much higher prices and living standards within the EU

 

Frankly, leaving the EU is a moronic idea!

 

BTW, don't think I agree with everything EU!

 

a) The Brussels /Strasbourg farce must cease

 

b) The Euro, although we are out of that, and are guaranteed to stay out unless we leave the EU, is a good but half baked idea. It needs as serious rethink

 

c) CAP has improved significantly. It has much further to go. I accept the historical reasons for it but the French, in particular, need to be weened off.

 

d) I'm not impressed by Junker though I would drink a bottle of whisky with him! He's on the way out.

 

e) The EU IS democratic though you wouldn't necessarily believe it. It need increased transparency

 

f) I have no problem with their salaries and expenses. Par for the course

 

 

OK, Mogadon, you have my response. I am not quoting other peoples analysis, you have mine.

 

I would appreciate a response from you. One word will do....

 

I am waiting ????

 

[Kieran00001]

50 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

"Throttle the flow" is jargon speak that sounds good but we all know the truth of the matter is, if you're from the EU and you decide you fancy relocating to the UK, UK authorities can throttle away all they like, you'll still be able to waltz in freely.



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It truly is astonishing that Brexiteers know so little about the issue, the Eu do not force us to have open borders.  The Leave brigade put out the fake news that open borders is because of the EU, as if they dictated that we must open the borders, when in reality we chose to open our borders earlier than the EU even recommended.  When we signed up, Thatcher negotiated a clause to allow us to maintain control of our border, Blair chose to lift that and also allow the then recently ascended countries to come to the UK earlier than the EU had recommended, and so we saw a great deal of Polish and others head to the UK, which was great for the economy.  The decisions was made by the British government and could be changed back tomorrow should that be what they want, however they do not want that, they want open borders with Europe, so what do you think we need to leave for now?

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Me being English I actually failed my English O-level exam, which shows up in my posts here....????

I am truly amazed to hear that!

[mogandave]

One word will do....
 
I am waiting [emoji16]
 

Thanks

[melvinmelvin]

Grouse,

in your -not-work- list I fully agree with 6

I don't understand your 8

 

cheerio

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

 

"Throttle the flow" is jargon speak that sounds good but we all know the truth of the matter is, if you're from the EU and you decide you fancy relocating to the UK, UK authorities can throttle away all they like, you'll still be able to waltz in freely.



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Its such a pity that you know so little

 

There are existing rules that can be used to reduce the flow rate

 

If we knew if people were working and what they were earning they could be kicked out

 

This is a UK problem NOT an EU problem

 

OFF with blinkers and get your reading specs on!

[Grouse]

43 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

Probably, but don't let the self proclaimed almighty Grouse's words be interpreted as anything other than his own opinion.

 

44 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

Probably, but don't let the self proclaimed almighty Grouse's words be interpreted as anything other than his own opinion.

Enough of the attacks.

 

I do not claim to be "almighty" or even particularly intelligent,

 

I have had an excellent education and I read widely. Thats all.

[Grouse]

48 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

It is you that does not understand.  And who the hell do you think you are, twice telling me to just <deleted> do it?!

JFDI was aimed at our "government"; don't be so paranoid

 

I would not expect you to do anything demanding

 

Sorry to say, that it is indeed you that does not understand the position. Are you British? Did you watch Border Force?

[rixalex]

Its such a pity that you know so little
 
There are existing rules that can be used to reduce the flow rate
 
If we knew if people were working and what they were earning they could be kicked out
 
This is a UK problem NOT an EU problem
 
OFF with blinkers and get your reading specs on!

"Kick people out". Yeah like that's so easy. You're having a laugh. Have you seen some of the reprobates we haven't been able to kick out. Deary me. And you accuse me of knowing so little.

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[melvinmelvin]

16 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I come from Muhamedania

 

 

this Muhamedania joke comes from Denmark,

 

in early 70s a new political party was formed, the former and leader, Mr Glistrup, quite a character,

lawyer by profession as far as I remember

this party's focus was primarily the reduction of taxes fees etc etc,

they were not particulary happy about muslims

 

Glistrup never used the term muslim

he always referred to them as Muhamedanians

and he wanted them out of Denmark and back to Muhamedania

 

terminology did create some fuss in the danish parliament