UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[candide]

22 minutes ago, aright said:

In what way is the EU a safeguard against fascism? My quoted article was published in 2014; there has been a significant  increase in extreme right wing people elected to their Parliaments since then......Italy a great example. How has the EU reacted to this ? As far as I can see they continue to sit on their hands and don't consider any reforms. I am guessing, having done no research, the UK is the only state without an extreme right wing MP.

 

This from the Telegraph

"But although mavericks of all stripes threaten the established order, the rise of Marine Le Pen fits an emerging pattern of hard-Right resurgence that should chill all those who inhabit the tolerant centre ground. Le Pen is a proto-fascist, peddling a glossy rebrand of hatred that has seduced some French voters and disarmed observers on both sides of the Channel who have greeted her achievement with something approaching respect. Yet its patina of politeness makes designer fascism more insidious, and thus more poisonous, than cruder anti-immigrant bile."

 

One more reason for my wanting to leave the club.

 

The EU laws and institutions are a safeguard against fascism. The Polish and Hungarian leaders have fascist tendencies, but they are limited by the EU, i.e. the Polish case

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-poland/eu-gives-poland-new-deadline-for-rule-of-law-deal-idUSKCN1IF1YB

 

As for the French case you cite, this article (The Telegraph) is from 2012. Actually since the 2017 elections the Front National is declining (and also has dropped its sovereignist stance, i.e. leaving the Eurozone, as it was one of the reasons for its flop).

 

The rise of extreme right wing parties in Europe is a problem, but proto-fascism is far from being a reality.

[The manic]

17 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

""Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth, for being correct, for being you.  Never apologise for being correct, or for being years ahead of your time.  If you're right and you know it, speak your mind. Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth."" - Gandhi

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6074691/One-five-people-arrested-Britain-foreign-one-three-minutes.html

[aright]

29 minutes ago, candide said:

The EU laws and institutions are a safeguard against fascism. The Polish and Hungarian leaders have fascist tendencies, but they are limited by the EU, i.e. the Polish case

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-poland/eu-gives-poland-new-deadline-for-rule-of-law-deal-idUSKCN1IF1YB

 

As for the French case you cite, this article (The Telegraph) is from 2012. Actually since the 2017 elections the Front National is declining (and also has dropped its sovereignist stance, i.e. leaving the Eurozone, as it was one of the reasons for its flop).

 

The rise of extreme right wing parties in Europe is a problem, but proto-fascism is far from being a reality.

The fact is proto-fascism is a reality fascism is not. What problems do you think the extreme right give the EU and iyo how should the EU react to them?

 

As for the rise of  nationalism  June 2018. 

 

[kwilco]

10 hours ago, 3 minus 2 said:

'Issues are deeper than that' enlighten me  please..

I think he means "nationalism" (or racism)...

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, The manic said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6074691/One-five-people-arrested-Britain-foreign-one-three-minutes.html

from the paper that supported Hitler!

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, candide said:

The EU laws and institutions are a safeguard against fascism. The Polish and Hungarian leaders have fascist tendencies, but they are limited by the EU, i.e. the Polish case

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-poland/eu-gives-poland-new-deadline-for-rule-of-law-deal-idUSKCN1IF1YB

 

As for the French case you cite, this article (The Telegraph) is from 2012. Actually since the 2017 elections the Front National is declining (and also has dropped its sovereignist stance, i.e. leaving the Eurozone, as it was one of the reasons for its flop).

 

The rise of extreme right wing parties in Europe is a problem, but proto-fascism is far from being a reality.

what makes you think it is "photo-facism" - it is simply fascism or Neo-facsism, but basically  right-based ignorance using racism and scapegoatism....same ol', same ol'.....

 

mostly famously joined the "international Nazi party" after the war - sounds a bit of an oxymoron but they still seem to be active today.

Edited August 20, 2018 by kwilco

[Stupooey]

7 hours ago, The manic said:

Today the British police statistics indicate that 1 in every 5 crimes are committed by foriegn born people.

Approximately 14% of the UK population were born overseas. As the large majority of them are relatively poor, they tend to live in the more disadvantaged areas that have naturally higher crime rates. The fact that 20% of crimes are said to be committed by those born overseas is therefore probably very much in line with the number committed by those born in the UK in these areas.

You're not a reader of the Mail or express by any chance, who tend to specialise in scaremongering headlines which are not borne out by the facts.

Edited August 20, 2018 by Stupooey
Posted when incomplete

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 hours ago, aright said:

Certainly. This from a previous post of mine.

 

No mention of (...)

With all due respect, if you wanna make a case for Brexit, you should come up with:

 

1. Facts (and, thus, sources stating these);

2. How these actually impact the U.K.;

3. How a Brexit would change/improve that sitution. 

 

And, no, I am not saying this to make things difficult for you. It’s pretty much what every proposal requires, and it’s exactly what makes some of the analyses about the negative impacts of Brexit so brilliant. 

 

Your list is missing at least some, if not all of these. It reads like a compilation of fluffy accusations and irrelevant ideas about the EU, and overall like a pretty helpless attempt to bash someone. If that is all what Brexit supporters can produce, I really don’t who you want to convince, especially in light of the very strong analyses others came up with. 

[melvinmelvin]

across Europe and also beyond it is (rightly or wrongly) a fairly widely shared view

that EU has contributed significantly to keeping fascism out and peace in

[My Thai Life]

17 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

With all due respect, if you wanna make a case for Brexit, you should come up with:

 

1. Facts (and, thus, sources stating these);

2. How these actually impact the U.K.;

3. How a Brexit would change/improve that sitution.

With all due repect to you, the case for brexit was made, and the vote was carried.

 

Endless post mortems on Thai Visa will not help you.

 

If some people have some personal potential downsides from brexit, they'd be better off planning how to mitigate them, or perhaps even to turn them to advantage, rather than endlessly debating the pros and cons of a decision which was taken a long time ago.

[My Thai Life]

23 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

across Europe and also beyond it is (rightly or wrongly) a fairly widely shared view

that EU has contributed significantly to keeping fascism out

Across the world it is an accepted view the the UK and its allies have done quite a bit to keep Fascism out ?

Edited August 20, 2018 by My Thai Life

[brewsterbudgen]

With all due repect to you, the case for brexit was made, and the vote was carried.
 
Endless post mortems on Thai Visa will not help you.
 
If some people have some personal potential downsides from brexit, they'd be better off planning how to mitigate them, or perhaps even to turn them to advantage, rather than endlessly debating the pros and cons of a decision which was taken a long time ago.

Of course that is total nonsense. In a democracy people can change their mind just as they can change their government.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

Not at all - everything I wrote is based on observations and personal experience. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and accept?

 

p.s. My support for our West Indian community against racists doesn't bring "balance" to my post?

It brings reggae to your post!

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

It brings reggae to your post!

And what is your reggae sorce?

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, aright said:

In what way is the EU a safeguard against fascism? My quoted article was published in 2014; there has been a significant  increase in extreme right wing people elected to their Parliaments since then......Italy a great example. How has the EU reacted to this ? As far as I can see they continue to sit on their hands and don't consider any reforms. I am guessing, having done no research, the UK is the only state without an extreme right wing MP.

 

This from the Telegraph

"But although mavericks of all stripes threaten the established order, the rise of Marine Le Pen fits an emerging pattern of hard-Right resurgence that should chill all those who inhabit the tolerant centre ground. Le Pen is a proto-fascist, peddling a glossy rebrand of hatred that has seduced some French voters and disarmed observers on both sides of the Channel who have greeted her achievement with something approaching respect. Yet its patina of politeness makes designer fascism more insidious, and thus more poisonous, than cruder anti-immigrant bile."

 

One more reason for my wanting to leave the club.

 

I think you are confusing coalition government with membership of the EU. I find coalitions (frequently labelled as weak) to be superior. Our FPTP system ends up with dissatisfied stagnation. The extreme right should have their say. I'm an extreme centrist 

[My Thai Life]

20 minutes ago, brewsterbudgen said:

Of course that is total nonsense. In a democracy people can change their mind just as they can change their government.

Of course people can change their mind. But attempting to stage a 2nd referendum before the result of the 1st is even enacted would be a constitutional, legal, political and operational nightmare. Apart from that, it has been ruled out by the current powers-that-be.

 

I've mentioned a couple of times in jest that if we were to have a 2nd referendum, we should really have a prior one to determine whether a majority supports a 2nd. In both cases, as remainers have requested, we should have a 66% majority and it should only be advisory.

 

Surely even the most hardened remainer can see the farce in all this?

[welovesundaysatspace]

34 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

With all due repect to you, the case for brexit was made, and the vote was carried.

I can’t see where a case was made. Yes, a vote was carried out, but a case made? No. 

 

34 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Endless post mortems on Thai Visa will not help you.

Not sure why I would need help and for what. If I recall correctly, people were asking what the actual opportunities of a Brexit are, because someone (or some article) suggested there are. I merely responded to a list of so-called opportunities. 

 

34 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

rather than endlessly debating the pros and cons of a decision which was taken a long time ago.

If you don’t like this debate, I don’t think anyone forces to be here. Either way you will have to let those who like „endlessly debating the pros and cons of a decision which was taken a long time ago“ continue their discussion. 

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think you are confusing coalition government with membership of the EU. I find coalitions (frequently labelled as weak) to be superior. Our FPTP system ends up with dissatisfied stagnation. The extreme right should have their say. I'm an extreme centrist 

 

agree, coalition governments are good for you,

highly educational for politicians to work in a coalition

 

both uk and us would benefit from such

 

(minority governments are also very educational, both for the government and the opposition)

 

[Srikcir]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think you are confusing coalition government with membership of the EU. I find coalitions (frequently labelled as weak) to be superior. Our FPTP system ends up with dissatisfied stagnation. The extreme right should have their say. I'm an extreme centrist 

The EU operates with very unique governance perhaps not found anywhere else to make it comparable and thus, easily understood. Although it can be characterized as having both Parliamentary and Republic connotations.

• It is a derivative political organization composed of republics without being one in its own capacity.
• It does not have "a primary corpus of law called a 'constitution' but clearly contains, at least in principle, all of the essential elements that make up a constituted polity.
• The European Parliament has no powers over the European Council: it can neither hold accountable any of the national political leaders nor can it gain access to the inner workings of its meetings.

https://protesilaos.com/eu-republic/

[My Thai Life]

Someone asked me about cases for or against brexit. Such cases are a good idea, but I have not seen any cases here which are actually connected to members on the forum. All I have seen is cut and paste from learned sources.

 

In my case a hard brexit would be favourable because

> a weak pound would benefit me

> I would be able to export to the UK without the EU's bureaucracy and non-tariff barriers.

 

By the way, I didn't vote, and had I voted I'm still not sure which way I would have voted, for reasons given in an earlier post.

[Chomper Higgot]

19 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Someone asked me about cases for or against brexit. Such cases are a good idea, but I have not seen any cases here which are actually connected to members on the forum. All I have seen is cut and paste from learned sources.

 

In my case a hard brexit would be favourable because

> a weak pound would benefit me

> I would be able to export to the UK without the EU's bureaucracy and non-tariff barriers.

 

By the way, I didn't vote, and had I voted I'm still not sure which way I would have voted, for reasons given in an earlier post.

“Someone asked me about cases for or against brexit. Such cases are a good idea, but I have not seen any cases here which are actually connected to members on the forum.”

 

I, and a number of other TVF members, have frequently made pro Remain arguments based on my (our) experiences of how the U.K.’s membership of the EU has supported the U.K. businesses we work for, win and deliver contracts/business/products/services around the world - debunking the Leave campaign claims that the EU restricts Britain in international trade and business.

 

First hand experiences, not ‘cut and paste’.

[Bluespunk]

9 hours ago, The manic said:

Today the British police statistics indicate that 1 in every 5 crimes are committed by foriegn born people.

Link to those stats please. 

 

Edit: a link to a daily mail article claiming to have obtained the stats doesn’t count. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Bluespunk

[brewsterbudgen]

55 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Of course people can change their mind. But attempting to stage a 2nd referendum before the result of the 1st is even enacted would be a constitutional, legal, political and operational nightmare. Apart from that, it has been ruled out by the current powers-that-be.

 

I've mentioned a couple of times in jest that if we were to have a 2nd referendum, we should really have a prior one to determine whether a majority supports a 2nd. In both cases, as remainers have requested, we should have a 66% majority and it should only be advisory.

 

Surely even the most hardened remainer can see the farce in all this?

I do accept some merit in your argument.  Personally, I'm hoping Comrade Corbyn will be persuaded to let Labour campaign on a "People's choice or Remain" ticket in the next General Election, which is likely to happen before March 2019 when May gets thrown out by the hard Brexiteers in her party.  I doubt a Boris/Rees-Mogg led "Hard Brexit" ticket would win a General Election.

[My Thai Life]

If there is a second referendum, and if there is a sufficient majority for remain. I will accept it without any problem.

 

I have been working internationally for 30 years, I am a poster boy for globalisation.

 

I also accept the fact that the referendum returned a vote to leave.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, vogie said:

Do you honestly think that Juncker should control anything?

That is what brexit means, on the basis that 'Juncker' stood for the EU.

TM has a list of EU agencies that she must come to some arrangement with, one way or another. The only question is will it be a constructive withdrawal arrangement or will it be a series of panic decisions post brexit.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

In my case a hard brexit would be favourable because

> a weak pound would benefit me

> I would be able to export to the UK without the EU's bureaucracy and non-tariff barriers.

If you export products to the UK, how would weak pound be beneficial for you? I would assume the opposite.

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

36 minutes ago, oilinki said:

If you export products to the UK, how would weak pound be beneficial for you? I would assume the opposite.

 

 

And would the UK's bureaucracy be any less than the EU's?

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

And would the UK's bureaucracy be any less than the EU's?

 

To start with there would only be one country instead of 27 trying to change things.

[Stupooey]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

If there is a second referendum, and if there is a sufficient majority for remain. I will accept it without any problem.

 

 

What do you consider to be a 'sufficient majority' for a decision of this magnitude? 60-40?

Edited August 20, 2018 by Stupooey
Posted when incomplete

[billd766]

38 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

What do you consider to be a 'sufficient majority' for a decision of this magnitude? 60-40?

 

That would seem reasonable provided that it excludes those who didn't vote. Perhaps 2/3 would be better.

 

What happens if neither side gain the majority required?