UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

incorrect

what you and this kwilco guy is saying is not correct

 

you have a fairly narrow view of what say is, I have a fairly broad view

you are talking about the final stage where a directive fly or is ditched or returned by parl.

(for certain classes of directives the comm. not the parl. has the upper hand

 - those directives are becoming fewer and farther apart as time flies though)

 

now, the fly/ditch/return stage is for members only - but in my view it is also the least interesting stage at which to have a say

now, assume the parl. says fly, then journal then enter into force

 

however, after parl. says fly - efta states can still say formally no to implementation

- that is having a say in my view - but still not very interesting

 

------

 

important directives, and other acquis for that matter,  are normally developed by comm and frequently presented to and massaged

in working groups/committees, being discussed in detail, ad nauseam, comm takes it back and massages again

these entities are open to members, efta/eea and CH.

this, in my view, is the important stage at which to have a say - when the stuff is drafted

you have a yes say, you don't have a no say, but you can participate in the development of the text and argue all you like at an early stage

 

in this respect I find EU exemplary open

Well we will have to agree to disagree on how "say" would be defined, bearing in mind it is subject to EU law.

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32012R1025

 

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/european-standards/key-players_en

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

I believe that a "people's Vote" will now take place. It is a face saving way out for cowardly MPs who damn well the Brexit is idiotic but dare not say so for fear of alienating some less well informed voters 

 

Corbyn will agree to Labour supporting this (partly due to momentum) on condition that no leadership change is threatened (much the same as labour supporting our nuclear deterrent).

 

This is why money is pouring in to support both sides

 

Extend the deadline to enable this. At least the country will be brighter after 31 March 2019 as BST will begin again.

 

ha

start off dire brexit in brighter sun !!

 

remain in sunshine

leave in sun shine

 

win win

 

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Well we will have to agree to disagree on how "say" would be defined, bearing in mind it is subject to EU law.

 

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32012R1025

 

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market/european-standards/key-players_en

 

but the point I thought I made clear is that it is not subject to EU law exclusively,

it is also a matter for the EEA treaty, which gives EFTA signatoties to that treaty the option to say NO after parliament says fly.

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

ha

start off dire brexit in brighter sun !!

 

remain in sunshine

leave in sun shine

 

win win

 

It just "dawned" on me that 29 March was last working day on UTC/Zulu/GMT. By design?

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

It is wonderful how people seem to know what I want and how I thing more than I do.

 

You manage to twist my words from saying that some companies who change their standards are not so smart to saying that some people are not so smart.

 

Who decides who is the truly smart person? You, me or somebody else?

 

I am quite happy that in your quote "assessment is a no deal Brexit will cost 5-10% of GDP growth, but there may be long term gains; the former is more certain than the latter." but I don't agree with the last part.

 

Another quote "

Nevertheless, it is what people want or believe and that is that.  If Parliament decide to veto a deal/no deal then that is also a democratic decision based on feasibility."

 

The people, as you call them, have no input to what they want. They can rant and rave but it is not in their power to change things. There is a possibility that if enough people badger their MP, perhaps or not the MP will listen and try to do something. However there is little the average MP can do unless they can get on to PM question time or get a private bill going.

 

It is down to the PM, the cabinet and Ministers to get the UK through Brexit and unless Theresa May calls a snap election (unlikely after the last shambles) this government will be responsible for the success or failure of Brexit.

 

The result of the next election also depends on the success or failure of Brexit.

Honestly, you clearly made a statement to the effect that nobody knows the future, and then contradicted it with a statement that suggests you know it!  You can't have it all ways!

[billd766]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

So what are the long term gains?

 

I have no ideas, do you?

 

Sadly I don't have a crystal ball that will tell me the future, nor do I know what the PM and ministers are thinking or doing with Brexit. Like you, I have left it in the hands of the government, be cause I am thousands of miles away from what is going on, I am not a minister or even an MP.

 

I have no control over what is happening but if I want to know accurately I would consult Mystic Meg or any of the other horoscope writers in the newspapers.

 

I have grown tired and bored of all the "experts" who are sometimes right and sometimes wrong, of all the doom and gloom merchants such as yourself and half the UK government, of the pushers of Project Fear, of all those on both side, past and present, who churn out lies, wrong predictions and only make a bigger buggers muddle of what could have been something reasonable.

 

I am bored sh*tless with Barnier, Juncker and all the other EU "leaders.

 

They remind me of Charlie "Big Nose" De Gaulle whose main words about the UK were "Non".

 

What I dislike most of all is the negative attitude off so many people.

[Henryford]

If there were to be a vote on the final deal what would be the question :-

 

1. Accept the proposed deal. Would most voters even know the consequences of this.

2. Reject the deal, and then what

2.a Ask for a new/better deal

2.b Forget the whole thing and stay as we are (having wasted 3 years talking about it).

If you go for 2b what was the point of the referendum in the first place.

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

 

If you go for 2b what was the point of the referendum in the first place.

There wasn’t. 

[kwilco]

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I have no ideas, do you?

QED

[3NUMBAS]

george soros and blair are pushing hard to thwart brexit .why ask yourself ?money hungry maggots at work

 

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I have no ideas, do you?

 

Sadly I don't have a crystal ball that will tell me the future, nor do I know what the PM and ministers are thinking or doing with Brexit. Like you, I have left it in the hands of the government, be cause I am thousands of miles away from what is going on, I am not a minister or even an MP.

 

I have no control over what is happening but if I want to know accurately I would consult Mystic Meg or any of the other horoscope writers in the newspapers.

 

I have grown tired and bored of all the "experts" who are sometimes right and sometimes wrong, of all the doom and gloom merchants such as yourself and half the UK government, of the pushers of Project Fear, of all those on both side, past and present, who churn out lies, wrong predictions and only make a bigger buggers muddle of what could have been something reasonable.

 

I am bored sh*tless with Barnier, Juncker and all the other EU "leaders.

 

They remind me of Charlie "Big Nose" De Gaulle whose main words about the UK were "Non".

 

What I dislike most of all is the negative attitude off so many people.

I have no ideas, do you?

 

Somewhat worrying then.

 

Did you just toss a coin ?

[tebee]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I have no ideas, do you?

 

Somewhat worrying then.

 

Did you just toss a coin ?

Problem is No One has any ideas how to do Brexit.....

[mommysboy]

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

Problem is No One has any ideas how to do Brexit.....

The Remainers don't have any claim to be able to stop it; the Brexiters don't have the wherewithal in any regard to bring about anything other than a bad deal/no deal.

 

Whatever people wanted, it certainly wasn't this bugger's muddle.

 

 

 

 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

12 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

There wasn’t. 

Well, only a couple of little things called sovereignty and national independence. Immigration control, unilateral business development and legislative freedom come to mind as a very close second, third and fourth.

 

Today it seems most people don't place too much importance / value on any of these things. Mystifying.   

Edited August 28, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Chomper Higgot]

17 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

ha

start off dire brexit in brighter sun !!

 

remain in sunshine

leave in sun shine

 

win win

 

The Joys of winning:

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

but the point I thought I made clear is that it is not subject to EU law exclusively,

it is also a matter for the EEA treaty, which gives EFTA signatoties to that treaty the option to say NO after parliament says fly.

 

Again will have to agree to disagree, the links posted are fairly clear that EU standards are subject to EU law, which in itself is exclusive.

 

All a bit academic as the UK has rejected the EEA and the ECJ they have effectively opted to have no say.

[sandyf]

One day the brexit brigade will wake up to the fact that to the EU there are some things more important than what the UK wants.

 

In his first response to their emergency talks, the French president said he respected the UK’s decision to leave the bloc – but vowed to protect the EU’s “integrity” at all costs. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/emmanuel-macron-therese-may-brexit-no-deal-uk-eu-a8509731.html

[Chomper Higgot]

12 hours ago, 3NUMBAS said:

george soros and blair are pushing hard to thwart brexit .why ask yourself ?money hungry maggots at work

 

Rees-Mogg opens a Hedge Fund in Ireland and advises his clients to join him betting against the UK in the Brexit shambles he is promoting.

 

’maggots’ you say!

[Chomper Higgot]

And here’s another Brexit backer betting against the U.K.:

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/investing/article-5824697/Brexiteer-Odey-bets-500m-AGAINST-British-businesses.html

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Well, only a couple of little things called sovereignty and national independence. Immigration control, unilateral business development and legislative freedom come to mind as a very close second, third and fourth.

 

Today it seems most people don't place too much importance / value on any of these things. Mystifying.   

Why don't you give us some tangible benefits?

 

Soveignty? Independence? We could discuss those for weeks!

 

What about cheese and cheese cake?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why don't you give us some tangible benefits?

 

Soveignty? Independence? We could discuss those for weeks!

 

What about cheese and cheese cake?

I'm not about to repeat myself again. Feel free to go back and read my comments where I have done as you requested already, a few times. Without any proper rebuttal from yourself on the supposed benefits of remaining part of this steadily failing, stagnating and splintering socialist experiment, I might add. 

I even reiterated the major points, summarily, in the comment you are replying to...

 

Maybe you are happy to remain in, with the UK existing as an indentured lackey by another name, but that says a lot more about you and other remainers, and your mindset, than it does about myself IMO.

 

I (and many I know) never voted for Brexit imagining it would be an easy split or an smooth road ahead for the short term, far from it. I voted for fundamental reasons (which I have detailed at length already) that make sense to any thinking person, who has some pride in themselves, their country and it's history, and who is pro-democracy and self determinism, which I thought is what the UK and the Western world at large, was supposed to be all about? Brexit is a shambles, I will not argue that point, it is being handled terribly, but it needn't have been the case. When the majority of those put in place to negotiate it were for remaining in the first place, (for a number of mostly self serving reasons) this should come as no surprise. We have precious few politicians who have any backbone or who are actually in their position to serve the people of the UK, whom they are supposed to represent.

 

On that point, the one admission I will make as a Brexit voter is this - it was perhaps somewhat ill conceived and myopic of us, who voted to leave, to imagine that the current government or it's opposition would have the inclination, spine or intelligence to handle Brexit competently. Sometimes the bigger picture overrides the detail. On balance though, as long as we actually get what we voted for, I still think it will be worth it and that we who instigated it will be on the 'right side of history', even if that understanding takes some time to crystalise and the road ahead is bumpy for a time. This was never about short term self interest, but long term national and social well-being through self determination via a return to parliamentary democracy et al.

[Chomper Higgot]

22 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I'm not about to repeat myself again. Feel free to go back and read my comments where I have done as you requested already, a few times. Without any proper rebuttal from yourself on the supposed benefits of remaining part of this steadily failing, stagnating and splintering socialist experiment, I might add. 

I even reiterated the major points, summarily, in the comment you are replying to...

 

Maybe you are happy to remain in, with the UK existing as an indentured lackey by another name, but that says a lot more about you and other remainers, and your mindset, than it does about myself IMO.

 

I (and many I know) never voted for Brexit imagining it would be an easy split or an smooth road ahead for the short term, far from it. I voted for fundamental reasons (which I have detailed at length already) that make sense to any thinking person, who has some pride in themselves, their country and it's history, and who is pro-democracy and self determinism, which I thought is what the UK and the Western world at large, was supposed to be all about? Brexit is a shambles, I will not argue that point, it is being handled terribly, but it needn't have been the case. When the majority of those put in place to negotiate it were for remaining in the first place, (for a number of mostly self serving reasons) this should come as no surprise. We have precious few politicians who have any backbone or who are actually in their position to serve the people of the UK, whom they are supposed to represent.

 

On that point, the one admission I will make as a Brexit voter is this - it was perhaps somewhat ill conceived and myopic of us, who voted to leave, to imagine that the current government or it's opposition would have the inclination, spine or intelligence to handle Brexit competently. Sometimes the bigger picture overrides the detail. On balance though, as long as we actually get what we voted for, I still think it will be worth it and that we who instigated it will be on the 'right side of history', even if that understanding takes some time to crystalise and the road ahead is bumpy for a time. This was never about short term self interest, but long term national and social well-being through self determination via a return to parliamentary democracy et al.

Brexit is a shambles because it rooted in lies.

 

There is no Brexit that will not severely damage the UK’s economy and political status in the world.

 

The actuality of the post Brexit sovereignty you harp on about was perfectly demonstrated when within days after the referendum the UK PM was forced to U-Turn on Hinckley Power Plant and do exactly as instructed by the Chinese government.

 

The U.K. outside of the EU will be treated according to its place in the world - insignificant on the world stage.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

55 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Brexit is a shambles because it rooted in lies.

 

There is no Brexit that will not severely damage the UK’s economy and political status in the world.

 

The actuality of the post Brexit sovereignty you harp on about was perfectly demonstrated when within days after the referendum the UK PM was forced to U-Turn on Hinckley Power Plant and do exactly as instructed by the Chinese government.

 

The U.K. outside of the EU will be treated according to its place in the world - insignificant on the world stage.

And you sir, typify the classically pessimistic, unashamedly self-loathing remainer attitude. The UK is nothing, corrupted, small minded, insignificant and deserving of a slow, miserable submergence in to the North Sea - something along those lines. What sad and pathetic rhetoric. Shameful.

 

And if Brexit is/was rooted in lies, then what is the EU and remain's cause rooted in, exactly? ?

 

Again, with the right people in place there is no need for any of this masochistic doom-mongering. What is needed is strong leadership, rekindling some renewed self confidence, along with proactive and sometimes tough decisions to be made, that in my opinion will be the difficult thing to achieve - but it's only even conceivable - after Brexit.

 

Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Singapore,  Malaysia, Taiwan among literally dozens more are all much less 'significant' on the world stage, yet have done fine outside the confines of large political/monetary and trade protectionist blocs. Your assumption that somehow the EEA cares a damn for the prosperity of the UK or adequately represents our business/national interests (when proportional representation for Malta out-weights the UK in the CoEU) is totally erroneous and undermines the point you are trying to make, as I see it.

 

The UK has always been geographically small, rather isolated and on the face of it yes, totally insignificant. Just look at what was achieved by the UK over the last half millennia.

- Cue: all manner of slurs, polemic criticism of the Empire blah blah blah. I'll preempt that one, utterly predictable as it is. ?

 

We might be insignificant in your eyes, but your opinion, shared by all too many, is a political line that has been fed to the population. We can never go back to our past status, nor should we, but just because times have changed, it doesn't mean the UK cannot prosper in the modern world with our specialisation in a number of areas, historic ties to major emerging markets and nascent, but easily consolidated links to the Anglosphere nations. Positiveness is what is required going forward, not what your pushing. 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

And you sir, typify the classically pessimistic, unashamedly self-loathing remainer attitude. The UK is nothing, corrupted, small minded, insignificant and deserving of a slow, miserable submergence in to the North Sea - something along those lines. What sad and pathetic rhetoric. Shameful.

 

And if Brexit is/was rooted in lies, then what is the EU and remain's cause rooted in, exactly? ?

 

Again, with the right people in place there is no need for any of this masochistic doom-mongering. What is needed is strong leadership, rekindling some renewed self confidence, along with proactive and sometimes tough decisions to be made, that in my opinion will be the difficult thing to achieve - but it's only even conceivable - after Brexit.

 

Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Singapore,  Malaysia, Taiwan among literally dozens more are all much less 'significant' on the world stage, yet have done fine outside the confines of large political/monetary and trade protectionist blocs. Your assumption that somehow the EEA cares a damn for the prosperity of the UK or adequately represents our business interests (when proportional representation for Malta out-weights the UK in the CoEU) is totally erroneous and undermines the point you are trying to make, as I see it.

 

The UK has always been geographically small, rather isolated and on the face of it yes, totally insignificant. Just look at what was achieved by the UK over the last half millennia.

- Que: all manner of slurs, polemic criticism of the Empire blah blah blah. I'll preempt that one, utterly predictable as it is. ?

 

We might be insignificant in your treacherous eyes, but your opinion, shared by all too many, is a political line that has been fed to the population. We can never go back to our past status, nor should we, but just because times have changed, it doesn't mean the UK cannot prosper in the modern world with our specialisation in a number of areas, historic ties to major emerging markets and nascent, but easily consolidated links to the Anglosphere nations. 

 

 

To hold a different view to you is not treachery.

 

“The UK is nothing, corrupted, small minded, insignificant and deserving of a slow, miserable submergence in to the North Sea - something along those lines.”

 

Que: all manner of slurs, polemic criticism of the Empire blah blah blah. I'll preempt that one, utterly predictable as it is.

 

Your words not mine.

 

If you find yourself having to make up statements and assigning them to people you disagree with, which you have,  you are in truth arguing with your own imagination.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

OK, perhaps I've done you a disservice? I removed 'treacherous' from my reply as, on reflection, I felt it was uncalled for. You're right in-so-far-as, having a different view to me is fine and acceptable. However, I know the type, having spoken with, listened to and read so many espousing the same negative old opinion, so 'assigning' said characteristics has become a standard response based on empiricism, I'm afraid. If you don't fall in to this demographic then please accept my apology. I don't hear you refuting anything though.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

I'm not about to repeat myself again. Feel free to go back and read my comments where I have done as you requested already, a few times. Without any proper rebuttal from yourself on the supposed benefits of remaining part of this steadily failing, stagnating and splintering socialist experiment, I might add. 

I even reiterated the major points, summarily, in the comment you are replying to...

 

Maybe you are happy to remain in, with the UK existing as an indentured lackey by another name, but that says a lot more about you and other remainers, and your mindset, than it does about myself IMO.

 

I (and many I know) never voted for Brexit imagining it would be an easy split or an smooth road ahead for the short term, far from it. I voted for fundamental reasons (which I have detailed at length already) that make sense to any thinking person, who has some pride in themselves, their country and it's history, and who is pro-democracy and self determinism, which I thought is what the UK and the Western world at large, was supposed to be all about? Brexit is a shambles, I will not argue that point, it is being handled terribly, but it needn't have been the case. When the majority of those put in place to negotiate it were for remaining in the first place, (for a number of mostly self serving reasons) this should come as no surprise. We have precious few politicians who have any backbone or who are actually in their position to serve the people of the UK, whom they are supposed to represent.

 

On that point, the one admission I will make as a Brexit voter is this - it was perhaps somewhat ill conceived and myopic of us, who voted to leave, to imagine that the current government or it's opposition would have the inclination, spine or intelligence to handle Brexit competently. Sometimes the bigger picture overrides the detail. On balance though, as long as we actually get what we voted for, I still think it will be worth it and that we who instigated it will be on the 'right side of history', even if that understanding takes some time to crystalise and the road ahead is bumpy for a time. This was never about short term self interest, but long term national and social well-being through self determination via a return to parliamentary democracy et al.

as long as we actually get what we voted for

 

We won't unfortunately get a free trade deal with the EU- all deals come with strings attached. I can live without that, but going it alone requires an acceptance of reality, willingness to suffer a while, a shared vision, a restructured economy, and above all strong leadership.  We have none of this- none!

Edited August 28, 2018 by mommysboy

[Chomper Higgot]

21 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

OK, perhaps I've done you a disservice? I removed 'treacherous' from my reply as, on reflection, I felt it was uncalled for. You're right in-so-far-as, having a different view to me is fine and acceptable. However, I know the type, having spoken with, listened to and read so many espousing the same negative old opinion, so 'assigning' said characteristics has become a standard response based on empiricism, I'm afraid. If you don't fall in to this demographic then please accept my apology. I don't hear you refuting anything though.

 

 

There’s the mark of a gentleman.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

9 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

as long as we actually get what we voted for

 

We won't unfortunately get a free trade deal with the EU- all deals come with strings attached. I can live without that, but going it alone requires an acceptance of reality, willingness to suffer a while, a shared vision, a restructured economy, and above all strong leadership.  We have none of this- none!

I half agree with you there, I'm afraid to say. I would contest that no-one has the willingness, or has at least accepted the reality that - we will suffer somewhat in the short term. I think it is fair to say, a decent amount of people who voted Leave are on that page. A restructured economy is well within the bounds of possibility in time, leaving is the catalyst to necessitate this prerequisite to our success, but again it will take time, as something of this nature always does. A shared vision and strong leadership is where we fail miserably, at this moment, at least.

 

Free trade deal or not, the UK is simply to vitally important a market to the EU, so that has never worried me as much as it has many. I agree with you that we need to galvanise and join together moving forward and what we need most to enact this much needed positive and pragmatic change is strong leadership, which we definitely don't have....right now. You have to hope that this will change, of course. 

[mfd101]

Brexiters will be delighted to learn that the French PM has instructed his Ministers to prepare for a no-deal exit of UK from the EU. They will take this as proof of a conspiracy ...

 

For the rest of us, it merely shows a major EU government preparing itself and its people sensibly for what is an increasingly likely outcome over the next few months, the exact repercussions of which are difficult to predict in micro-detail.

[tebee]

What I find most frightening about the prospect of a no deal brexit is both the lack of preparation for it on our side  and the lack of any coherent vision of what a post-no deal brexit Britain should look like.

 

WTO trade is not a policy, it is accepting being put into the worst possible position and trying to manage from there.  All visions and promises of the sun-lit uplands have evaporated and now it's about managing the self-induced crisis so it's not armagedon or the end of the world.  

 

There is no leadership on either side and no vision of where we are going. No plan on how we restructure the economy or how we help those businesses who find the principles they had built their plans on disappearing from under their feet.    

 

Would it not be sensible to pause and reflect about where we want to go before commiting to an irrevocable cause of action ?