UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Card]

I know that - go back over what you said originally and what you are saying now and get back to me when you have aligned the two.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, aright said:

I didn't include the best rumor………...

 

"This is the question being asked in Berlin. Might Angela Merkel herself seek to be the first woman president of the commission? She has the weight, the authority, the proven government record, international reputation and status, and more political experience and skills than all of today’s European politicians put together."

IMO.....the best bet.

 

I kinda doubt that

Would be a rather big step down for her

also

that lady is mega smart,

my guess is that she understands very well that she is not the right person to create renewed enthusiasm for EU

 

but of course, should never say never

[Card]

6 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

 

It doesn't put Brexit into law. It governs how the Parliament will deal with possible outcomes of the negotiations. Nothing in the bill prevents or can prevent another bill from being enacted in regard to Brexit including its nullification.

The Brexit Bill means that if MPs decline to vote in favour of the Brexit deal then we will still fall out of the EU, just without a trade deal. 

[Scott]

Troll post reported and removed.  

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, Card said:

The Brexit Bill means that if MPs decline to vote in favour of the Brexit deal then we will still fall out of the EU, just without a trade deal. 

You seem determined not to understand that another bill could be passed nullifying the process. Of course, the EU would have to agree to it. But I don't think that's an unlikely prospect.

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, Card said:

There are no sovereign states in the EU because EU law takes precedence over all their laws.

Then the U.K. better never do any trade deals, standards, etc. Ideally completely seal off from the world like North Korea, otherwise you wouldn’t be a sovereign state. 

 

Typjcal brexiteer Nonsense. 

[Bluespunk]

15 minutes ago, Card said:

The Brexit Bill means that if MPs decline to vote in favour of the Brexit deal then we will still fall out of the EU, just without a trade deal. 

It’s still not binding or irreversible. 

[aright]

16 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

I kinda doubt that

Would be a rather big step down for her

also

that lady is mega smart,

my guess is that she understands very well that she is not the right person to create renewed enthusiasm for EU

 

but of course, should never say never

Why a big step down. Her current position is threatened she is not the popular figure she once was......her open door immigration policy put paid to that and I don't get the impression she is ready to retire.

"Merkel always says her last great challenge is to restore confidence in and purpose to the European Union. She is the one German who could lead post-Brexit Europe and make presidents Trump, Putin and Xi sit up and realise the EU is now getting serious."

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 minute ago, aright said:

Why a big step down. Her current position is threatened she is not the popular figure she once was......her open door immigration policy put paid to that and I don't get the impression she is ready to retire.

"Merkel always says her last great challenge is to restore confidence in and purpose to the European Union. She is the one German who could lead post-Brexit Europe and make presidents Trump, Putin and Xi sit up and realise the EU is now getting serious."

 

 

yes agree, she would be a good match with xi trump putin and make 'em listen

but I doubt she could create any grassroot enthusiasm  in EU

 

anyway, going from pm Germany to chair of the commission I would call a significant step down the ladder

 its a bit like going from being a decision maker to a carrying out orders

 

[aright]

9 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

yes agree, she would be a good match with xi trump putin and make 'em listen

but I doubt she could create any grassroot enthusiasm  in EU

 

anyway, going from pm Germany to chair of the commission I would call a significant step down the ladder

 its a bit like going from being a decision maker to a carrying out orders

 

Tony Blair did it. He was selected by the USA, EU, Russia and the UN to be Special Envoy to the Middle East.....not that he was very successful.

It is a medium step down but power for some people is addictive at whatever level; only she can determine how important that is in her life.

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, aright said:

Tony Blair did it. He was selected by the USA, EU, Russia and the UN to be Special Envoy to the Middle East.....not that he was very successful.

It is a medium step down but power for some people is addictive at whatever level; only she can determine how important that is in her life.

yes man, you said it, power is addictive, right you are

if she did that, and got rid of this saylmar chap and got hold of someone who could bring about some joy and enthusiasm in the younger generations, then yes maybe

 

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, tebee said:

 

It's a pretty bad compromise, it's Brexit in name only under another name. I must admit I would be happy to settle for  it, though I won't campaign for it. I would have thought leavers had more reasons to be unhappy about it  though. Needs to be in conjunction with remaining in the CU to make any sense though.

 

I can't see us having time to negotiate it now though - either within the Tory party or with the other members.

 

I more and more think it going to be down to a choice of remain or no deal.

 

 

No time? it's soft Brexit. Virtually no change.

 

Remain isn't an option, is it?

[tomacht8]

I do not understand why the UK Parliament does not make a secret vote in parliament, who is for what.
Five options and everyone is allowed to make a choice cross.

- Hard Brexit without regulations
- Canada model
- Norway model
- Transition period
- Remaining.

Business people, as private people need a clear political decision.
No one knows what the UK wants to this day.
There will not be a Checkers deal in any case.

[tebee]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

No time? it's soft Brexit. Virtually no change.

 

Remain isn't an option, is it?

Remain is a considerably easier option than EEA

 

Remain = send EU 27 a nice letter saying we want to revoke art 50 please.

 

EEA will need approval from other EEA states + EU 27 + we need change domestic law to accommodate our new status.

 

We either stay in CU - this is a new status, EU need to change their law to accommodate this or we leave CU - we need set up customs posts everywhere(inc NI border!) UK exporters have to deal with lots new paperwork/boarder chaos on day 1  

[Grouse]

Sobering view from Austria

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45409188

 

Sounds about right to me

[melvinmelvin]

7 hours ago, tebee said:

Remain is a considerably easier option than EEA

 

Remain = send EU 27 a nice letter saying we want to revoke art 50 please.

 

EEA will need approval from other EEA states + EU 27 + we need change domestic law to accommodate our new status.

 

We either stay in CU - this is a new status, EU need to change their law to accommodate this or we leave CU - we need set up customs posts everywhere(inc NI border!) UK exporters have to deal with lots new paperwork/boarder chaos on day 1  

1) eu-27 is included in eea states

 

2) however, step 1 would be to seek approval from efta-4

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, rixalex said:

No particular moral high ground on either side of the debate.
 

No dispute there, but unfortunately morality does not fund the essential services, that takes money. The limited resources available are being spent on brexit rather than say the mentally ill, do you really believe that is what people voted for?

 

TM is a world leader when it comes to morality, appears to have circumvention in her DNA.

 

"Theresa May will by-pass Brussels negotiators and intensify her efforts to press EU member state leaders into doing a Brexit deal at a crucial meeting later this month.

The prime minister will use the mini-summit to convince leaders that her Chequers proposals constitute a viable route to sealing a full Brexit agreement later in the year."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-chequers-plan-eu-leaders-france-germany-brussels-deal-a8522441.html

[melvinmelvin]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

Sobering view from Austria

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45409188

 

Sounds about right to me

bank of england, former boss:

 

Lord King expressed regret and surprise that it was more difficult for a single country to present a united front than the other 27 EU members.

He said: "They must have been really worried that they had 27 countries to try to corral, how could they have a united negotiating position, they were dealing with a country that was one country, made a clear decision, voted to leave, it knew what it wanted to do, how on earth could the EU manage to negotiate against this one decisive group on the other side of the Channel?

"Well, the reality's been completely the opposite. The EU has been united, has been clear, has been patient and it's the UK that's been divided without any clear strategy at all for how to get to where we want to go."

He also said he found the current level of debate around Brexit "depressing" and said it obscured the real challenges ahead.

"The biggest economic problems facing the UK are, we save too little, we haven't worked out how to save for retirement, the pension system is facing I think a real challenge, we haven't worked out how to save enough for the NHS and finance it, we haven't worked out how we're going to save enough to provide care for the elderly.

•  

 

 

 

[sandyf]

8 hours ago, tebee said:

 

EEA will need approval from other EEA states + EU 27 + we need change domestic law to accommodate our new status.

 

 

That has never been clarified. TM has claimed that leaving the EU automatically means leaving the EEA but that has been disputed by some legal experts that say under the constitution EEA members must give 12 months notice of their intention to leave under Article 127.

One may wonder if this is TM's get out of jail card.

 

Article 127 declares that contracting parties - one of which is the UK - must give twelve months’ notice of departure. As things stand in our case, that's March 29th 2019. The logical extension is that if a contracting party does not do so, they must consider themselves still members and therefore bound by all the ensuing obligations. In other words, we stay in the single market until we trigger the clause.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/03/01/article-127-the-key-brexit-decision-with-a-one-month-deadlin

[melvinmelvin]

13 minutes ago, sandyf said:

That has never been clarified. TM has claimed that leaving the EU automatically means leaving the EEA but that has been disputed by some legal experts that say under the constitution EEA members must give 12 months notice of their intention to leave under Article 127.

One may wonder if this is TM's get out of jail card.

 

Article 127 declares that contracting parties - one of which is the UK - must give twelve months’ notice of departure. As things stand in our case, that's March 29th 2019. The logical extension is that if a contracting party does not do so, they must consider themselves still members and therefore bound by all the ensuing obligations. In other words, we stay in the single market until we trigger the clause.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/03/01/article-127-the-key-brexit-decision-with-a-one-month-deadlin

 

what is it that you call consitution? treaty of rome as amended or the eea treaty?

 

anyway,

 

there is very strong legal support for TM's view, both among eea and eu legal scholars and among uk legal experts

 

if an eea signatory withdraws from efta or eu, the whole basis for being party to eea vanishes

being party to eea and not being party to either of efta/eu is kinda vacuum without much meaning

 

I know there are some legal papers in UK challenging TM's views, built on fairly shallow analysis me thinks

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

bank of england, former boss:

 

Lord King expressed regret and surprise that it was more difficult for a single country to present a united front than the other 27 EU members.

He said: "They must have been really worried that they had 27 countries to try to corral, how could they have a united negotiating position, they were dealing with a country that was one country, made a clear decision, voted to leave, it knew what it wanted to do, how on earth could the EU manage to negotiate against this one decisive group on the other side of the Channel?

"Well, the reality's been completely the opposite. The EU has been united, has been clear, has been patient and it's the UK that's been divided without any clear strategy at all for how to get to where we want to go."

He also said he found the current level of debate around Brexit "depressing" and said it obscured the real challenges ahead.

"The biggest economic problems facing the UK are, we save too little, we haven't worked out how to save for retirement, the pension system is facing I think a real challenge, we haven't worked out how to save enough for the NHS and finance it, we haven't worked out how we're going to save enough to provide care for the elderly.

•  

 

 

 

 

Sounds like King has woken up!

 

Earlier in 2016 he uttered such tripe I thought he had gone senile. 

 

Another port m'lud?

[rixalex]

No dispute there, but unfortunately morality does not fund the essential services, that takes money. The limited resources available are being spent on brexit rather than say the mentally ill, do you really believe that is what people voted for?
 
TM is a world leader when it comes to morality, appears to have circumvention in her DNA.
 
"Theresa May will by-pass Brussels negotiators and intensify her efforts to press EU member state leaders into doing a Brexit deal at a crucial meeting later this month.
The prime minister will use the mini-summit to convince leaders that her Chequers proposals constitute a viable route to sealing a full Brexit agreement later in the year."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-chequers-plan-eu-leaders-france-germany-brussels-deal-a8522441.html

Governments find money when they need to and want to. Just look at the way the current government found money to throw at the DUP.

Blaming the shortage of funds for the mentally ill on the cost of Brexit is a nonsense. Quite possible to fund both things if both things are seen as a priority. And there's the rub.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mommysboy]

Support to remain is gaining momentum.  My take is that while a small majority would like to leave the EU, the way events have unfolded it would be very unwise to do so at this point in time- and increasingly people are realising just that.

 

For many, the deal, the determining factor, the deal clincher, was an assurance that we could leave the EU and have a free trade deal.  

 

Are we seeing the death throes of spin?  Perhaps politicians will now need to understand that if you make promises you have to keep them.  The silent majority now growls.  Both camps fought disgraceful campaigns.

 

I don't know how the failure of Brexit will be played out, none of us do, and it's so fast moving, but it's increasingly likely it will falter in Parliament, and take the Government with it.  My guess is that MPs have gone back to their constituencies during the recess, gauged real opinion, and now feel brave enough to openly express dissent against the Government, and demerit the Chequer's plan in particular.  

[Card]

16 hours ago, bristolboy said:

You seem determined not to understand that another bill could be passed nullifying the process. Of course, the EU would have to agree to it. But I don't think that's an unlikely prospect.

The EU don't want us anymore - they are tired of the whole Brexit affair. They would only ask us to re-apply

 

[Henryford]

It's all part of Quisling May's cunning plan. She makes a complete balls up of the Brexit negotiations then says "look we are heading for chaos we have to have another vote", knowing full well that the people will not vote for chaos.

 

You have to admit it is clever. She gets to stay in the EUSSR without looking like she has ignored the original vote.

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, Henryford said:

It's all part of Quisling May's cunning plan. She makes a complete balls up of the Brexit negotiations then says "look we are heading for chaos we have to have another vote", knowing full well that the people will not vote for chaos.

 

You have to admit it is clever. She gets to stay in the EUSSR without looking like she has ignored the original vote.

 

 

Mervyn nailed it......

 

Former Bank of England governor Lord King has blasted Brexit preparations as "incompetent".

King said it "beggared belief" that the world's sixth-biggest economy should be talking of stockpiling food and medicines.

This left the government without a credible bargaining position, he said.

 

A spokesperson for the Department for Exiting the European Union (DExEU) said that getting a good deal with the EU was "by far, the most likely outcome".

Lord King said that "a government that cannot take action to prevent some of these catastrophic outcomes illustrates a whole lack of preparation".

 

"It doesn't tell us anything about whether the policy of staying in the EU is good or bad, it tells us everything about the incompetence of the preparation for it."

 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Card said:

The EU don't want us anymore - they are tired of the whole Brexit affair. They would only ask us to re-apply

 

That's actually not a bad idea. Let UK to reflect for a while what it has done to the rest of the EU with this unnecessary Brexit drama. 

[Henryford]

26 minutes ago, Card said:

The EU don't want us anymore - they are tired of the whole Brexit affair. They would only ask us to re-apply 

 

Yes and you can imagine the terms of our readmission. They would make us grovel, take the Euro with the Pound at an all time low, and give us the same bargaining rights as Malta. It makes me sick that the once Great Britain has to beg to be part of this corrupt Fourth Reich.

[melvinmelvin]

33 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Perhaps politicians will now need to understand that if you make promises you have to keep them.

 

 

easy man, you must warn readers before you make burps like that, I almost spit out my Belhaven . . .

 

[melvinmelvin]

19 minutes ago, oilinki said:

That's actually not a bad idea. Let UK to reflect for a while what it has done to the rest of the EU with this unnecessary Brexit drama. 

 

waddya mean unnecessary?