DIY aound the house-Any danger work permit wise?

[hackjam]

I do a little DIY work around the house, power wash tiles, painting, no major construction jobs.

Was just wondering, what are the legal implications of carrying out such work?

I am on retirement visa and house is in Thai wife's name. 

[johng]

You should be perfectly ok  doing that..what they normally catch people on is if there is any sort of "business" being conducted on the premisses...say for instance your wife run a  laundry or small shop from home they could  construe your D.I.Y as work for the business,

it would be risky ( slight but possible) to  go to a friend or neighbours house and help them do D.I Y there.

You also can't have a "hobby" say building boats and then sell lots of boats..thats certainly work ?

[Jonathan Fairfield]

You'll be fine. You don't need a WP to do DIY at home

[impulse]

Over 7+ years, every anecdote I've read where people have gotten into WP issues, digging into the details reveals they were in it for financial gain.  Mostly, it made sense (like the guys building their X..th boat for sale or being paid to take wedding photos), sometimes it didn't (like permitted dive instructors helping their students carry gear, or a husband helping out in a wife's bar), but I have never read one where someone got grassed up for working on their own home.

 

On an aside, with the current punishment for WP violations being reduced to deportation, who wants to live anywhere you can't do your own home projects -or even your own cooking- anyway?   If I can't wash my own car or...or..., show me the way to the airport...

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by impulse

[elviajero]

There are no legal issues. It is not ‘work’ in the context of ‘work’ requiring permission (a work permit).

 

The word work has has many uses/meanings. Working (as in physical effort) around the home is not the type of work that requires a work permit.

 

The law doesn’t say you can’t work, it says that you need permission to carry out your occupation or to be employed. Doing DIY around your home is neither.

[jackdd]

41 minutes ago, elviajero said:

There are no legal issues. It is not ‘work’ in the context of ‘work’ requiring permission (a work permit).

 

The word work has has many uses/meanings. Working (as in physical effort) around the home is not the type of work that requires a work permit.

 

The law doesn’t say you can’t work, it says that you need permission to carry out your occupation or to be employed. Doing DIY around your home is neither.

Actually the law defines work as "engaging in any profession, with or without employer ", so according to the law painting your own house clearly requires a work permit. If this is enforced is of course a completely different topic...

[stud858]

If you haven't upset anyone then you should be fine.

If you have upset someone don't let them see you doing anything that resembles work..

 

Another definition of work,

Work = Force x distance.

 

[asiaexpat]

Unless you intend on painting the entire outside of your house or build an addition, etc do not fear needing a work permit. Some would tell you that you need a work permit to change a light bulb but routine and simple house maintenance will not be seen as requiring a work permit or create problems for you.

[elviajero]

21 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Actually the law defines work as "engaging in any profession, with or without employer ", so according to the law painting your own house clearly requires a work permit. If this is enforced is of course a completely different topic...

Nonsense. Since when is DIY around the home a "profession"?

 

profession

1. a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

"his chosen profession of teaching"

synonyms:career, occupation, calling, vocation, line of work, line of employment

 

The changes to the rules regarding foreigners working do not change anything regarding what expats can do around their home. If the OP were to set up business as a 'handyman' he'd need permission (work permit), as he's not he doesn't need permission or a work permit.

Edited August 30, 2018 by elviajero

[jackdd]

27 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Nonsense. Since when is DIY around the home a "profession"?

 

profession

1. a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

"his chosen profession of teaching"

synonyms:career, occupation, calling, vocation, line of work, line of employment

 

The changes to the rules regarding foreigners working do not change anything regarding what expats can do around their home. If the OP were to set up business as a 'handyman' he'd need permission (work permit), as he's not he doesn't need permission or a work permit.

For example painting a house is the profession of a "House painter and decorator" in which OP would be engaging when painting the house and if somebody gets paid or not doesn't matter according to Thai law

Edited August 30, 2018 by jackdd

[elviajero]

1 minute ago, jackdd said:

For example painting a house is the profession of a "House painter and decorator" and if somebody gets paid or not doesn't matter according to Thai law

Painting a house is not a profession. The occupation/job/etc. of "House painter and decorator" is a profession. There is a big difference, and the latter almost always includes being paid. How many people working at the profession of painter and decorator make their living by working for free!

 

The reason Thai law always includes clauses such as -- "if somebody gets paid or not" -- is to stop people claiming their work is unpaid to avoid the need for permission (work permit). If they didn't include such clauses foreigners could work without permission by being paid under the table. 

 

 

 

[stud858]

There are no rules. The immigration officers will make the rules on the day if they are informed about you.

 

You can't foresee. Best keep your DIY quiet and all will be ok.

 

There are obvious situations of foreigners working without permits for doing full on paid work and they are left alone. They have no problems because they haven't upset anyone.

I've known of three foreigners getting into trouble. All upset a Thai person prior to their immigration officer visits.

 

[hackjam]

I see many references to "own house" or "your home" but it not mine, it is Thai wife's house, as its not in my name?? 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, hackjam said:

I see many references to "own house" or "your home" but it not mine, it is Thai wife's house, as its not in my name?? 

You don’t have to own the place you live in for it to be your home.

[mikebell]

16 hours ago, impulse said:

Over 7+ years, every anecdote I've read where people have gotten into WP issues, digging into the details reveals they were in it for financial gain.  Mostly, it made sense (like the guys building their X..th boat for sale or being paid to take wedding photos), sometimes it didn't (like permitted dive instructors helping their students carry gear, or a husband helping out in a wife's bar), but I have never read one where someone got grassed up for working on their own home.

 

On an aside, with the current punishment for WP violations being reduced to deportation, who wants to live anywhere you can't do your own home projects -or even your own cooking- anyway?   If I can't wash my own car or...or..., show me the way to the airport...

 

My friend has a Thai wife.  She has a bar/restaurant.  He scrupulously avoided any sort of 'work' in it.  He was picked up by Immigration 'Police' who observed him making himself a coffee in the bar's kitchen; the bar wasn't open.  It cost him 50K.

[stud858]

15 minutes ago, mikebell said:

My friend has a Thai wife.  She has a bar/restaurant.  He scrupulously avoided any sort of 'work' in it.  He was picked up by Immigration 'Police' who observed him making himself a coffee in the bar's kitchen; the bar wasn't open.  It cost him 50K.

Yes, 50k. That seems to be the magic number. 

[Grusa]

The truth is, the definition of "work" is whatever the officer concerned wants it to be on the day.

If you are "shopped" by a farang, it is unlikely anything will happen. If you are "shopped" by a Thai, you will be prosecuted to the limit of the law, regardless of the validity of the accusation. 

As ever, the effort expended is directly, or possibly exponentially, proportional to the potential financial return. 

Whatever the outcome, it will cost you!

[stud858]

11 hours ago, hackjam said:

I see many references to "own house" or "your home" but it not mine, it is Thai wife's house, as its not in my name?? 

Married. Live together. It's both your home.

I rent from someone. It's my home.  It's not my house.

[advancebooking]

18 hours ago, jackdd said:

Actually the law defines work as "engaging in any profession, with or without employer ", so according to the law painting your own house clearly requires a work permit. If this is enforced is of course a completely different topic...

Bar stool talk. I recently ask immigration officer about this and he said no problem for me to paint my comer building. He kind of laughed when I ask such a stupid question 

[Kurtf]

You obviously haven't seen much of Thai workmanship. And permits for any plumbing are unheard of. We built a house from the ground up and all we needed was a building permit. Nothing else.

[jackdd]

6 minutes ago, advancebooking said:

Bar stool talk. I recently ask immigration officer about this and he said no problem for me to paint my comer building. He kind of laughed when I ask such a stupid question 

You asked the wrong person. The department of employment says what is work and what is not, not an immigration officer.

[stud858]

4 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You asked the wrong person. The department of employment says what is work and what is not, not an immigration officer.

The immigration police are the ones that make the arrest. They say, hello, you are here on retirement visa, why you work? Come with us please.

 

[finnishmen]

6 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You asked the wrong person. The department of employment says what is work and what is not, not an immigration officer.

not need workpermit papers if build own house,make elewktric work at home, painting,etc home build work, i has build 2 house aND immigration police has go looking my papers then i work, say only good jobm 5555 and i do code to elektric project to friend no need permit, or build machine, etc. all have my "hobby" only 55 some project has ready i sell thatsm 555 i no work ?

 

[Peterw42]

2 hours ago, stud858 said:

Yes, 50k. That seems to be the magic number. 

And the stories are always told 2nd/3rd hand. and it usually is a poor excuse that someone puts foward when they were actually working, and did get caught.

[Peterw42]

3 hours ago, mikebell said:

My friend has a Thai wife.  She has a bar/restaurant.  He scrupulously avoided any sort of 'work' in it.  He was picked up by Immigration 'Police' who observed him making himself a coffee in the bar's kitchen; the bar wasn't open.  It cost him 50K.

If there isnt more to that story I will eat my hat. I am yet to come across one of these stories, that is told first hand and turns out to be genuine. 

 

[janclaes47]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

If there isnt more to that story I will eat my hat. I am yet to come across one of these stories, that is told first hand and turns out to be genuine. 

 

Well I know 3 stories first hand, one of them even has its own thread as it was in the newspapers.

 

1. Man sits in bar. Not his own bar. Beer delivery guy comes delivering, and he helps them unloading the beer boxes. Arrested

 

2. Man sits in his own bar in soi 7, of course not in his name, and sits at the corner of the bar and is checking the bills from the day before. Arrested and deported

 

3. Man sits in his bar on Soi Bhuakhow, doesn't do any work any time, but every day sits in the same location near the street, which is a long table where 15 - 20 people can sit. Arrested and passport seized. He wasn't deported but it has taken months to  get his passport back, so I guess some arrangements were made.

[jackdd]

34 minutes ago, stud858 said:

The immigration police are the ones that make the arrest. They say, hello, you are here on retirement visa, why you work? Come with us please.

 

If you read news about foreigners working illegally, for example here a recent example: https://www.mmtimes.com/news/rights-groups-thailand-demand-release-3-myanmar-teachers.html

You will see that in most news it says "immigration police, department of employment...", because immigration police usually don't come alone, but  have somebody from the department of employment with them who will give his opinion if what the foreigner did is actually considered work.

I think if somebody gets arrested for working and there is just immigration police and nobody from the department of employment, it might very well just be an attempt to extort money and if you just don't pay you would be released the next day.

 

[Peterw42]

7 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

Well I know 3 stories first hand, one of them even has its own thread as it was in the newspapers.

 

1. Man sits in bar. Not his own bar. Beer delivery guy comes delivering, and he helps them unloading the beer boxes. Arrested

 

2. Man sits in his own bar in soi 7, of course not in his name, and sits at the corner of the bar and is checking the bills from the day before. Arrested and deported

 

3. Man sits in his bar on Soi Bhuakhow, doesn't do any work any time, but every day sits in the same location near the street, which is a long table where 15 - 20 people can sit. Arrested and passport seized. He wasn't deported but it has taken months to  get his passport back, so I guess some arrangements were made.

Unless the stories happend to you personally, that is by definition a second hand story.  As I said, in ten years of reading these threads on Thaivisa, I am yet to come across one that is told first hand, and by page 3 of the thread, turns out to be someone working. If you can quote me a thread or a newspaper story, will be glad to read it. 

These threads usually follow the same "i got arrested for making my own coffee" etc as they usually wont come out and admit they were in fact working. Just because the guys are trying to downplay getting caught, doesnt mean it didnt happen. 

 

Number 3 is probably the best urban myth I have heard so far, a guy got arrested for sitting in a bar as a customer !!!!!  Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds ?

[janclaes47]

1 minute ago, Peterw42 said:

Number 3 is probably the best urban myth I have heard so far, a guy got arrested for sitting in a bar as a customer !!!!!  Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds ?

Even not worth the time replying.

 

Do your own homework, that particular story is widely covered in the local press and Thaivisa

[jackdd]

5 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

Even not worth the time replying.

 

Do your own homework, that particular story is widely covered in the local press and Thaivisa

Can you provide a link?