BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, smotherb said:

I have been through immigration not wanting to accept my income statement twice. Each time they reluctantly accepted it and told me to show proof of my B65k/monthly into Thailand. The first time it was just a warning and they gave me no specific instructions. The second time, which was two years later; they made me write and sign a letter stating I would deposit B65k/month in a Thai bank to show them in order to get my retirement extension.  Last year, after my wife diligently posted monthly to a Thai bank the previous year, the Immigration Office did not even ask about it and  accepted the income statement without question. 

 

One argument I had that is still pertinent, is the fact that the total money a foreigner is required to have by the Thais is not what you are required to spend in Thailand. As it stands, it appears those on income are going to have to show B65k/mo entering Thailand. Are those on lump sum going to have to show at least B65k is spent monthly of the B800k in the bank?  

Which office?

[david555]

4 minutes ago, kinyara said:

No, and if you bring your 65k in a month for a couple of years you could save enough to meet the 800k requirement and your problem is solved.

 

And same time you create a limited financial buffer for unexpected happenings ...

[theoldgit]

25 minutes ago, kinyara said:

Would be interested to know how many income verification letters the British Embassy in Bangkok were issuing annually and therefore how many retirees are affected by this. I don't think I've ever seen a figure for how many Brits are on "retirement" visas here. 

https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-information-request

[Peterw42]

7 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Maybe everyone should " take a step back "..let the dust settle, and hopefully a solution can be found.


Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Great advice, I think there is actually a Thai government department whose job is to keep expats busy and occupied, idle hands are the devils work etc. Better to have us occupied speculating on forums, in bars etc, than planning the expat revolution.

[8OA8]

19 minutes ago, kinyara said:

No, and if you bring your 65k in a month for a couple of years you could save enough to meet the 800k requirement and your problem is solved.

 

 

20 minutes ago, kinyara said:

No, and if you bring your 65k in a month for a couple of years you could save enough to meet the 800k requirement and your problem is solved.

 

Isn't that a bit like the old chestnut, Two persons can live as cheaply as one, as long as one of them don't eat"

Surely the 65k month was to assist with the daoly expenses rather than for saving towards the 800k?

[fforest1]

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Great advice, I think there is actually a Thai government department whose job is to keep expats busy and occupied, idle hands are the devils work etc. Better to have us occupied speculating on forums, in bars etc, than planning the expat revolution.

True..

[fforest1]

18 minutes ago, 8OA8 said:

 

Isn't that a bit like the old chestnut, Two persons can live as cheaply as one, as long as one of them don't eat"

Surely the 65k month was to assist with the daoly expenses rather than for saving towards the 800k?

At 65k a month you can save 800k in only one year if you sleep on the beach or on a cardboard box in front of 7-11 and beg for food at the temple.....But if you cheat like with a 30 baht bowl of noodles some times it will take longer to save 800k...

Edited October 10, 2018 by fforest1

[Peterw42]

I think there is some poor wording (deflection) in the British Embassy statement. "Thai immigration want us to verify your income, we are unable to do this". Leading to the assumption that its a Thai immigration thing. (it would appear that is the intent)

 

I can write a statement "I am unable to attend your BBQ this weekend as Thai police want me to wear a helmet, I am unable to wear a helmet". There is no new Police helmet law, its just me not wanting to wear a helmet.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Peterw42

[JackThompson]

37 minutes ago, smotherb said:

The second time, which was two years later; they made me write and sign a letter stating I would deposit B65k/month in a Thai bank to show them in order to get my retirement extension. 

I recall the original thread about this, and I believe you were not alone.  My concern is that this manner of thinking may be in-play beyond what is going on with the British Embassy's letters. 

 

I suspect if they try to force that much spending out of everyone, it will backfire spectacularly.  On the upside, the uproar by businesses losing huge money, where expats used to live, could turn the tables, and we might see a more accommodating future policy.

 

39 minutes ago, smotherb said:

Are those on lump sum going to have to show at least B65k is spent monthly of the B800k in the bank?  

Yes - exactly.   Some folk's lifestyles are well over 65K/mo, but others are less, yet those folks are still contributing foreign-currency directly into the Thai economy and taking nothing out in return.

 

38 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

It may come down to immigration accepting bank statements for brits in the absence of their consulate  providing letters. I cant imagine how the banks could do this, accounting for variable and multiple income sources, technically you could take money out of the atm and deposit it back as income, bounce money between 2-3 accounts and call it income etc..

They would probably want to see the deposits as originating from abroad, but - withdrawing the money from the primary account, sending it out to a foreign-acct, then bringing it back, would still make the "same money" appear to be cumulative foreign-income. 

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, kinyara said:

Would be interested to know how many income verification letters the British Embassy in Bangkok were issuing annually and therefore how many retirees are affected by this. I don't think I've ever seen a figure for how many Brits are on "retirement" visas here. 

 

Whilst it's an issue for those affected, the numbers involved might reveal whether the change assumes huge importance for the Thai authorities. I don't see why they should change their policy if this is a unilateral decision by the British Embassy, although I'm not clear if that's the case as other Embassies were mentioned at the start of the thread.

 

Figures should be available via FoI request.

Edited October 10, 2018 by evadgib

[smotherb]

57 minutes ago, kinyara said:

No, and if you bring your 65k in a month for a couple of years you could save enough to meet the 800k requirement and your problem is solved.

 

My my, bless your heart. You see, I spend far ore than my B65k/month so I could not possibly save the B800k from that.

 

While it is rather naive--had to edit this--of you to think that I do not have B800k to post. However, I cannot see the advantage of selling producing investments to put in Thailand. And, I have sufficient income to not need to.

 

However, my question was will they make you B800k posters show at least B65k/mo too, like they will likely ask the the income statement people to do?  

Edited October 10, 2018 by smotherb

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

They would probably want to see the deposits as originating from abroad, but - withdrawing the money from the primary account, sending it out to a foreign-acct, then bringing it back, would still make the "same money" appear to be cumulative foreign-income. 

I am doing a similar exercise with my wife at the moment, she is trying to refinance a mortgage and needs to show a certain income for so many months, so every time I am going to get money from the ATM, or bring funds in from home, it goes via her account and the Thai bank is happy to see it as income.

[smotherb]

55 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Which office?

Hatyai

[mfd101]

I attended Kap Choeng office at 0830 this morning for my annual renewal based on retirement (+ 90-day report). Out the door all done at 0930 which, considering that I was 1st up, counts as some kind of success, I guess.

 

With one exception, everything was as usual - chaos as papers, passports & photocopies shuffled around at snail's pace between half a dozen people. And as usual it felt like time travel back to The Lucky Country 1965. Not helped by the unpleasant individual in charge who seeks to make everything as difficult as possible. My papers were immaculate (I wasn't a bureaucrat for nothing) but he didn't know what "$A" on the statdec meant & didn't agree with us when we told him ... Like last year they weren't interested in my lovely photos of me scowling at the camera near our front gate.

 

The exception to the usual was that, right at the beginning, as soon as I handed him my wad of docos he demanded to see my bankbook (which of course was irrelevant as I was using the income method). Fortunately, in light of the hysteria on this site over the last 48 hours in relation to The British Problem, I had brought along backup just in case. So I handed over my bank book, which was then photocopied page by page. They appeared not to notice that it currently has only 22000฿ in it and certainly made no connection between that and my more-than-ample monthly income. Which shows what a load of mindless process it all is.

 

The fact of his asking MAY be a sign of things to come (or he may simply not have noticed first up that I was using the income method). Anyway there'll be plenty of time to find out whether The British Problem is to be generalized or not. Till then I shall let sleeping chihuahuas lie.

[007 RED]

As many posters have already pointed out, we really don’t know if Thai immigration have imposed additional requirements on the BE in respect of their letter confirming income, or if the BE is reducing its workload in advance of its move to new accommodation in July next year.

 

The Freedom of Information Act 2000 provides members of the public (of any nationality or any location) to submit a request to any UK public body for information which they hold.

 

This morning I  submitted a request to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) via the WhatDoTheyKnow website https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwN_Mg_n63QIVVRuPCh2ApgvBEAAYASAAEgJYbfD_BwE

 

The request is as follows:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

On the 8th October 2018 the British Embassy in Bangkok announced on its website that with effect from the 1st January 2019 it will no longer be providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income.  This letter has previously served as a supporting document for British National obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.

 

According to the announcement the Embassy is stopping certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai Authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals. 

As the Embassy has not given any details as to why they cannot fulfil the Thai Authorities requirements I should be grateful if you would provide me, under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, the following information:

 

1.  The total number of letters confirming income issued to British Nationals by the Embassy during the following periods:

 

a)  8th October 2015 to 7th October 2016.

b)  8th October 2016 to 7th October 2017.

c)  8th October 2017 to 7th October 2018.

 

2.  Minutes of meetings, notes, correspondence (including emails) and conversation recordings between Embassy staff and Thai Authorities, and between Embassy staff which relate to the withdrawal of the provision of letters confirming income to British Nationals.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

The FCO should receive the request today and they have 20 working days (from tomorrow) to respond with the information requested or provide explanations as to why they cannot provide the information.

TV members will be able to see the request and responses on the above mentioned website – search under either FCO or Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

[Greenside]

On 10/8/2018 at 3:23 PM, Pilotman said:

No mate, the next step will be compulsory Health Insurance.  That will be the death of expats in Thailand, excuse the pun . Lets face it, the Thais, aided by the Embassy, dont' really want us here.  We are a problem that they would rather not have.  Death by a thousand cuts.   Or is it death by a thousand cxxxs? 

Sadly, you are probably spot on.  That'll really be an issue with so many not being eligible, let alone the cost for those who are.

[fforest1]

 

 

Thailand does not give no one any thing free here...If you can not take care of yourself your homeless...Thats what I call full-proof income verification....       

Edited October 10, 2018 by fforest1

[Shoeless Joe]

In summary - (perhaps UbonJoe or CharlieH might be kind enough to confirm, add, amend or delete).

 

1) From 1 January 2019, the British Embassy, Bangkok will no longer be able to provide British ex-pats with a letter verifying ones income when applying for a retirement or marriage visa in Thailand. The embassy says this is because Thai Immigration want them to verify the income and they (the embassy) are unable to do so).

 

2) The British Embassy will however, continue to accept applications for the "income verification" letter until the 12 December 2018

 

3) Apparently, the "income verification" letter is valid for 6 months from the date on the letter and will be accepted by Thai immigration for visa extension purposes (has this been confirmed by the Thai Immigration authorities?).

 

3) If that's so, there's a window of opportunity for those who's retirement / marriage visas expires in the months up to June 2019 (I don't know the exact date but maybe the 11th June 2019(?)) to apply to the British Embassy for their "income verification" letter, in time for their retirement / marriage visa renewal.

 

4) None of this affects those ex-pats who deposit "seasoned" funds of either 800,000 baht (or 400,000 baht for a marriage visa) in a Thai bank

 

Finally, everything else is a matter of conjecture until / unless the Thai Immigration authorities provide some additional clarification (or not) regarding an alternative process that satisfies their requirement for "proof" of income.

 

My apologies to all those who have fully understood everything within the previous 63 pages. If nothing else, it's a been a cathartic exercise for me to write it down.

 

Regards,

 

Joe

Edited October 10, 2018 by Shoeless Joe

[Peterw42]

12 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

As many posters have already pointed out, we really don’t know if Thai immigration have imposed additional requirements on the BE in respect of their letter confirming income, or if the BE is reducing its workload in advance of its move to new accommodation in July next year.

 

The Freedom of Information Act 2000 provides members of the public (of any nationality or any location) to submit a request to any UK public body for information which they hold.

 

This morning I  submitted a request to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) via the WhatDoTheyKnow website https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwN_Mg_n63QIVVRuPCh2ApgvBEAAYASAAEgJYbfD_BwE

 

The request is as follows:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

On the 8th October 2018 the British Embassy in Bangkok announced on its website that with effect from the 1st January 2019 it will no longer be providing British Nationals with letters confirming their income.  This letter has previously served as a supporting document for British National obtaining a Thai retirement or marriage visa.

 

According to the announcement the Embassy is stopping certification of income letters because it is unable to fulfil the Thai Authorities’ requirements to verify the income of British Nationals. 

As the Embassy has not given any details as to why they cannot fulfil the Thai Authorities requirements I should be grateful if you would provide me, under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, the following information:

 

1.  The total number of letters confirming income issued to British Nationals by the Embassy during the following periods:

 

a)  8th October 2015 to 7th October 2016.

b)  8th October 2016 to 7th October 2017.

c)  8th October 2017 to 7th October 2018.

 

2.  Minutes of meetings, notes, correspondence (including emails) and conversation recordings between Embassy staff and Thai Authorities, and between Embassy staff which relate to the withdrawal of the provision of letters confirming income to British Nationals.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

The FCO should receive the request today and they have 20 working days (from tomorrow) to respond with the information requested or provide explanations as to why they cannot provide the information.

TV members will be able to see the request and responses on the above mentioned website – search under either FCO or Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Great letter but I would change one part of the wording "stopping certification of income letters" is the title of the thread, not what the British Embassy refers to. British Embassy says "stopping Pension letter service", technically British Embassy does not certify income letters or refer to them as such. Possible confusion as they may not understand what you are talking about.

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, Shoeless Joe said:

3) Apparently, the "income verification" letter is valid for 6 months from the date on the letter and will be accepted by Thai immigration for visa extension purposes (has this been confirmed by the Thai Immigration authorities?).

Depends on the office but most will accept 6 month old, Jomtien does.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Peterw42

[blackhorse]

I dont know why its not taken up by more people, I have a mate who has spent probably 1m baht over the last 5 years, going to neighbouring counties for visas, airfares, hotels etc. 
 
 

Because he didn't have the 500 k?

[Shoeless Joe]

10 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Depends on the office but most will accept 6 month old, Jomtien does.

 

 

Thanks PeterW42 - I've just heard from a local Chiang Mai immigration advisor that Chiang Mai immigration authorities are currently saying that they will accept a 6 month-old "income verification" letter from the British Embassy (which is a relief as my retirement visa expires in mid-April 2019!). I sincerely hope this will apply to all the immigration offices in Thailand.

 

By the way, thanks for all of your previous comments on this thread which I've found extremely helpful. ????

 

Regards

 

Joe

[PAWNEESE]

I WAS sympathetic to the Brit Embassy when they declared they can not and will not guarantees income claims are correct. Seemed logical but ....thinking about it more though  .... I was wrong.

 

They could just carry on saying we cant guarantee accuracy  .. keep providing the lettsrs written as "Mr x says he x income and he has provided docs .. etc"  

 

Then let Thailand accept or reject that wording.  Dont do anything or change anything. 

 

Let Thai Immigration do the stabbing in the back .. not those supposed to be on our side do it.

 

They could say .. we will not change the letter format or guarantee anything .. now YOU do what you want.

 

They have as the saying goes "thrown us under the bus"  Thrown a strop and said we aint playing any more .. Or more accurately we are going to not be on the side of our citizens.

 

Other embassys have a way of doing it and continueing it seems.  Being on the side of its citizens and helping them is what THEY claim to be one of the reasons they exist.

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by PAWNEESE
Clean up

[blackhorse]

So here we are. Not a single other embassy joined the income letter party and nothing on the thai immigration website announcing a new law.

The British Embassy has royally screwed their own citizens.

I would be furious but I'm not a brit.

Why are you guys not descending on the embassy and demanding answers? No good crying on TV I doubt the embassy staff are on here

[time2093]

Feel sorry to all you Brits who this will effect, But as the old saying goes One man's loss is another man's gain as I can see all the Visa shops in Pattaya and Bangkok all chomping their teeth taking advantage of this new rule increasing their business on helping the Brit pensioners with the 800k in the bank problem for their retirement visa.

[balo]

Does anyone know of any other country in Asia or other parts of the world who demand you to have 800k locked up in a bank account to be able to get a visa ?  Who came up with this idea in the first place. Why not 400k . Why make it so difficult when you are dealing with normal people , not really rich but not poor people .   

So why 800k  ? 

 

Most Indians and Chinese would not be able to afford it should they choose to retire here, that's for sure. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by balo

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Great letter but I would change one part of the wording "stopping certification of income letters" is the title of the thread, not what the British Embassy refers to. British Embassy says "stopping Pension letter service", technically British Embassy does not certify income letters or refer to them as such. Possible confusion as they may not understand what you are talking about.

Thanks for your observation regarding the use of the phrase " stopping certification of income letters", much appreciated.  However, the wording that you question is in fact taken (copy & paste) from the BE website under the section Notarial and Documentary Services Guide for Thailand – Announcement https://www.gov.uk/guidance/notarial-and-documentary-services-guide-for-Thailand the use of the words

Just shows, yet again, they can’t get it right.

[PAWNEESE]

26 minutes ago, blackhorse said:

So here we are. Not a single other embassy joined the income letter party and nothing on the thai immigration website announcing a new law.

The British Embassy has royally screwed their own citizens.

I would be furious but I'm not a brit.

Why are you guys not descending on the embassy and demanding answers? No good crying on TV I doubt the embassy staff are on here

 

I agree ... but it took me a day or two to realise what the situation was. It does seem like the Brit Embassy is acting disgracefully. For a day or so though  it was suggested other embassys will follow or HAVE  to follow, 

 

Also there were thoughts getting ones Thai bank to verify payments in might be easier.

 

To me it seems the Brit Embassy has created a huge problem for tens of thousands (guess) and deserve protests.  Its ok to chat on here about it for now .. if it causes in reality the problems it seems possible to huge numbers ..  well lets see.

 

I wonder if withdrawing a service provided for decades .. and relied upon .. and the withdrwal of which will create big problems to citizens is even legal (by UK government dept by UK law).  Probably is .. a rhetorical questiom.

 

It seems possible doing income letter a pain in rear for them and they have found an excuse for stopping doing it. 

 

Big protest may come. My writing to my Member of Parliament on the cards .. that will teach em ????????????????????????????

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2018 by PAWNEESE
Correction

[crazykopite]

12 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Just speculation. The facts as they stand is that retired Brits without letters will be out of luck doing any kind of income based applications and will have the 800K method as their ONLY option to stay.

I suppose another way would be to invest 500,000 into the Thailand elite card and get 5 years worry free visa .it does not mention anywhere that the elite card holder has to provide proof of income or 800,000 in the bank it’s an expensive way but it stops you worrying about having funds for the next 5 years !

[crazykopite]

45 minutes ago, PAWNEESE said:

 

I agree ... but it took me a day or two to realise what the situation was. It does seem like the Brit Embassy is acting disgracefully. For a day or so though  it was suggested other embassys will follow or HAVE  to follow, 

 

Also there were thoughts getting ones Thai bank to verify payments in might be easier.

 

To me it seems the Brit Embassy has created a huge problem for tens of thousands (guess) and deserve protests.  Its ok to chat on here about it for now .. if it causes in reality the problems it seems possible to huge numbers ..  well lets see.

 

I wonder if withdrawing a service provided for decades .. and relied upon .. and the withdrwal of which will create big problems to citizens is even legal (by UK government dept by UK law).  Probably is .. a rhetorical questiom.

 

It seems possible doing income letter a pain in rear for them and they have found an excuse for stopping doing it. 

 

Big protest may come. My writing to my Member of Parliament on the cards .. that will teach em ????????????????????????????

 

 

 

 

I believe that under the Thai military government protests in vast numbers is forbidden and I believe that goes for all .