BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[Pattaya46]

47 minutes ago, OJAS said:

OK, I was hoping that it might have included an explicit reference to Embassy income verification being required in the case of the 65k monthly income method, but, unfortunately, it does not ????

You could try to use this other document from Bangkok Immigration. It's a note about requirement to transfer your visa (Tourist or Exemption) to a Non-O in the aim to get a Yearly Extension, so it's not exactly what they will ask to Renew your Extension, but still very similar 

 

 

(Pic posted yesterday by @Exploring Thailand in page 69 of this same topic)

[soalbundy]

8 hours ago, Rally123 said:

Do you really think that writing to him will make matters different? Do you not think that the BE have thought this through, knowing of the backlash it would cause? Nah, bitching to the ambassador ain't gonna make any difference. The decision has been made.

No, I don't think it has been thought through, the embassy staff aren't aware of the hoops we have to jump through, they are naive and believe in the regulations and the rule of law, they should be made aware that this isn't Europe. It is quite possible that they are talking with their opposite numbers in other embassies, I assume that members of the various European embassies mix socially, perhaps a re-education will take place. Whatever, writing to the ambassador can help, he wont be dealing with the administrative nuts and bolts and may be unaware of any problems so well done Taff. 

[CharlieH]

Bickering (bitching) removed.

[wayned]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

No, I don't think it has been thought through, the embassy staff aren't aware of the hoops we have to jump through, they are naive and believe in the regulations and the rule of law, they should be made aware

The other possibility is that they really don't give a crap!

[David Walden]

16 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

The problem is that your posts have nothing to do with the subject of the thread which is 

 

British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

 

It is about the problems of UK expats having great difficulty in obtaining a letter of confirmation of their income as required by the Thai Immigration department.

 

Please note that I said UK Expats, Thailand and Thailand Immigration.

 

Your posts are about you, Australia, Australian citizens and the Thai Immigration department and have nothing to do with UK expats and the British embassy. SO you are 

 

My point is and there are a few slow learners around that is if you are going to provide proof of savings to Thai Immigration requirements you cannot expect the British Embassy to do it with what could be made up information, that is called "Passing the Buck".  You are asking the BE to provide a letter in good faith that the information contained in the letter provided is true when it in fact it could be a "cock and Bull Story".  With Australia the same effect is provided if you prepare a Stat dec. with your name on it.  You make a solum statement a declaration under oath that you have the money to the satisfaction of Thai Immigration you acknowledge that if the information is not true you can go to Gaol for 4 years and you sign it in front and Embassy Official who has the powers of a JP.   The Aus Embassy JP then signs it to say they witnessed you signing the document,  They may ask you if the information is provided is true, that is optional.  The Aus Embassy signs all sorts documents all day long at Bt3000 a 2 min interview, it's money for jam.  They seldom know what is contained in the document it is not their business.  They are only witnessing you signing the document...the BE could and may do the same for Brits in Thailand, that is an option now.  Perhaps you should direct you effort to have the BE implement this arrangement.  Maybe they will if you are kind to them instead of bagging everything.  My mother often used to say  "where there is a will there is a way"

   I am very surprised that the British Embassy has allowed their method to go on and for so long.  When you sign a statutory declaration on Australian Soil in Bangkok the buck stops with you...can you understand this now it is the way it's been for a thousand years under English Law.  same in Aus, US, NZ, Canada and many other countries base on old English Law and recent law. 

    You providing a Stat Dec and getting an Embassy JP to witness it is better and easier anyway.  The Aus Embassy has no idea if the information contained there-in is true or not it's not their business. it's between you and Thai Immigration if that's what they will accept and it is unlikely they will ever investigate.  Perhaps the Brits will look at this way.  If you tell lies in a Stat Dec in Thailand and get caught well  perhaps a few shillings will fix things up...TIT

PS...Once you have signed a Stat Dec in thailand showing yo have the required funds that's all they require mostly.  Usually you don't have to show any detail, you just have to present your Stat Dec with your application.  If you have a Thai bank book well you don't need the Stat. Dec. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by David Walden

[steve73]

10 hours ago, JackThompson said:

A simple solution - NOP Insurance - aka "Not Our Problem" aka "Stabilize and Evacuate".  Must be purchased on-entry by all, and renewed with any extension, so cheap for everybody.  And it doesn't cover much.  Govt-regulated but private-underwriting (funded by interest-bearing bonds) and solid actuarial calculations that make the bonds a good, stable, moderate-interest investment.

 

If something "serious medical" happens, you go to a state-hospital (not private) and are stabilized.  If you can be sent home in the seat of a plane fairly quickly, they get you to that point, and off you go.  If you will be prone (on a gurney) for an extended-time, you are sent home that way (more expensive flight, but cheaper than months of treatment). Which way you go is at the option of the insurer, aiming only to minimize costs. 

 

With that in place,no more worry that Thais will have to cover the medical-costs of foreigners - ever.  Done.

A medical evacuation is not cheap if accompanying doctors and nurses are included.  I recall it's around 50,000 GBP from this region.

You'd get a lot of treatment in a government hospital for over 2 million Baht. 

But there is still the cost of this insurance... for an older person, with a few pre-conditions it could still be well over 50-100k bt. (I'm guessing here, but based on normal health insurance quote for a similar insured sums I've seen.)

 

Probably better to get retirees (and tourists even) to sign a waiver that any medical treatment will be suspended after a few days unless prior arrangement for payment is confirmed,  (insurance/self funded), etc. as a precondition of getting the extension (or tourist visa).

If anyone doesn't like it there is a simple option.

 

At least with an 800k buffer, there probably allows one "warning shot" medical problem.

 

[xylophone]

15 minutes ago, steve73 said:

A medical evacuation is not cheap if accompanying doctors and nurses are included.  I recall it's around 50,000 GBP from this region.

You'd get a lot of treatment in a government hospital for over 2 million Baht. 

But there is still the cost of this insurance... for an older person, with a few pre-conditions it could still be well over 50-100k bt. (I'm guessing here, but based on normal health insurance quote for a similar insured sums I've seen.)

 

Probably better to get retirees (and tourists even) to sign a waiver that any medical treatment will be suspended after a few days unless prior arrangement for payment is confirmed,  (insurance/self funded), etc. as a precondition of getting the extension (or tourist visa).

If anyone doesn't like it there is a simple option.

 

At least with an 800k buffer, there probably allows one "warning shot" medical problem.

 

I can see something like that working and I think that JackThompson was also on point, but poss needed an alteration or two...…….something purchased on arrival covering accidents, for example, could poss cover around 50% of cases, then a basic cover for other cases.

 

Remember that this sort of thing is "a numbers game". ie every visitor has to buy it, but very few have to use it, so priced correctly it could be a money earner for the Govt.

 

Bought by every visitor and yearly by long stay expats, so theoretically the 800k should be relatively safe

Edited October 15, 2018 by xylophone

[Tanoshi]

36 minutes ago, David Walden said:

You providing a Stat Dec and getting an Embassy JP to witness it is better and easier anyway.  The Aus Embassy has no idea if the information contained there-in is true or not it's not their business. it's between you and Thai Immigration if that's what they will accept and it is unlikely they will ever investigate. 

That's the same method used by the US Embassy and others.

According to the BE the US Embassy will soon withdraw it's service.

Then one after another, like dominos, the other Embassies services could fall.

 

I cannot see Immigration adopting different requirements for different nationalities.

Big Joke could yet be forced into a U-turn.

[OJAS]

57 minutes ago, David Walden said:

With Australia the same effect is provided if you prepare a Stat dec. with your name on it. 

A document which, of course, can easily be obtained fraudulently through exaggerated amounts being declared by those who are prepared to run the (in all probability extremely small, in practice) risk of getting banged up for 4 years in Oz.

Edited October 15, 2018 by OJAS

[Spidey]

10 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That's the same method used by the US Embassy and others.

According to the BE the US Embassy will soon withdraw it's service.

Then one after another, like dominos, the other Embassies services could fall.

 

I cannot see Immigration adopting different requirements for different nationalities.

Big Joke could yet be forced into a U-turn.

The key phrase is "According to the British Embassy", AKA BS Central.

 

Big Joke has not played any part in this debacle, in fact he didn't take his post up as head of Immigration until after the BE had made their decision. So, what is he going to do a U turn on exactly?

[theoldgit]

12 hours ago, OJAS said:

OK, I was hoping that it might have included an explicit reference to Embassy income verification being required in the case of the 65k monthly income method, but, unfortunately, it does not ????

This is a lift from the Immigration Div 1 FAQ's page, not what I wanted to read but they seem to make it clear that an Embassy letter is a requirement, this is the link to the whole of the FAQ's, question 22 being the approriate one.
http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/base.php?page=faq

 

Leanne made another mistake with her interview with Tommy, she said the required figure has always been 65k, which of course it hasn't, though it has been for some time.

Income requirements.docx

[JackThompson]

50 minutes ago, steve73 said:

A medical evacuation is not cheap if accompanying doctors and nurses are included.  I recall it's around 50,000 GBP from this region.

You'd get a lot of treatment in a government hospital for over 2 million Baht. 

Consider they could buy at contract-price - so work a deal for a better deal than a one-off purchase.  Would still be expensive, but also only for very rare cases.

50 minutes ago, steve73 said:

But there is still the cost of this insurance... for an older person, with a few pre-conditions it could still be well over 50-100k bt. (I'm guessing here, but based on normal health insurance quote for a similar insured sums I've seen.)

Best not to even look at age, and make it very simple - one-person = one-price.  Just a per-mo cost applied to all.  The young would be subsidizing the old to an extent, but the cost should be very low if all foreigners buy it - and then not a "high risk pool" rate.

 

It cannot be abused - sick people coming in for "free" healthcare - because they don't keep you around for any sort of long-term treatment.

 

50 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Probably better to get retirees (and tourists even) to sign a waiver that any medical treatment will be suspended after a few days unless prior arrangement for payment is confirmed,  (insurance/self funded), etc. as a precondition of getting the extension (or tourist visa).

If anyone doesn't like it there is a simple option.

I agree in theory, but letting people die after being booted from hospitals is bad PR - not done in civilized countries.  What I propose would avoid that, while also avoiding Thais being on the hook for foreigner's medical problems.

 

33 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I can see something like that working and I think that JackThompson was also on point, but poss needed an alteration or two...…….something purchased on arrival covering accidents, for example, could poss cover around 50% of cases, then a basic cover for other cases.

The policy should state it only covers if the person is not covered by another policy.  Most will want/have travelers insurance.  This will further reduce its use. 

 

33 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Remember that this sort of thing is "a numbers game". ie every visitor has to buy it, but very few have to use it, so priced correctly it could be a money earner for the Govt.

This is what I am thinking - 99.x% would never use it. 

 

33 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Bought by every visitor and yearly by long stay expats, so theoretically the 800k should be relatively safe

The purpose is just to "handle" people in a humane way, but get them to their own country as quickly as possible, if they cannot pay for care.  Also, importantly, to end the "medical-care cost" rationale for claiming expats in Thailand is a bad thing.  Big win-win for all - except the clique using this as cover for an agenda to remove as many of us as possible by whatever excuse.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, David Walden said:

My point is and there are a few slow learners around that is if you are going to provide proof of savings to Thai Immigration requirements you cannot expect the British Embassy to do it with what could be made up information, that is called "Passing the Buck".  You are asking the BE to provide a letter in good faith that the information contained in the letter provided is true when it in fact it could be a "cock and Bull Story".  With Australia the same effect is provided if you prepare a Stat dec. with your name on it.  You make a solum statement a declaration under oath that you have the money to the satisfaction of Thai Immigration you acknowledge that if the information is not true you can go to Gaol for 4 years and you sign it in front and Embassy Official who has the powers of a JP.   The Aus Embassy JP then signs it to say they witnessed you signing the document,  They may ask you if the information is provided is true, that is optional.  The Aus Embassy signs all sorts documents all day long at Bt3000 a 2 min interview, it's money for jam.  They seldom know what is contained in the document it is not their business.  They are only witnessing you signing the document...the BE could and may do the same for Brits in Thailand, that is an option now.  Perhaps you should direct you effort to have the BE implement this arrangement.  Maybe they will if you are kind to them instead of bagging everything.  My mother often used to say  "where there is a will there is a way"

   I am very surprised that the British Embassy has allowed their method to go on and for so long.  When you sign a statutory declaration on Australian Soil in Bangkok the buck stops with you...can you understand this now it is the way it's been for a thousand years under English Law.  same in Aus, US, NZ, Canada and many other countries base on old English Law and recent law. 

    You providing a Stat Dec and getting an Embassy JP to witness it is better and easier anyway.  The Aus Embassy has no idea if the information contained there-in is true or not it's not their business. it's between you and Thai Immigration if that's what they will accept and it is unlikely they will ever investigate.  Perhaps the Brits will look at this way.  If you tell lies in a Stat Dec in Thailand and get caught well  perhaps a few shillings will fix things up...TIT

PS...Once you have signed a Stat Dec in thailand showing yo have the required funds that's all they require mostly.  Usually you don't have to show any detail, you just have to present your Stat Dec with your application.  If you have a Thai bank book well you don't need the Stat. Dec. 

 

Will you please try to stay on topic which is as I said before is 

 

British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

 

Few posters other than Australians care about what is done in Australia or what you do for YOUR stay in Thailand. It is totally irrelevant to the subject matter.

 

Few if any Brits will fly to Australia because to get a visa there they have to apply to the Thai Embassy which can be done in countries far closer. Also it will NOT be an extension as an extension can ONLY be applied for in Thailand, where of course you have to meet the Thai requirements which at this stage STILL include getting a letter of confirmation from the Embassy. That will cease in December this year.

 

The majority of Brits who used the embassy letter have to provide proof of income. That includes state pension statements and any other pension statements they have.

 

Of COURSE it is possible to cheat and forge a document in just the same way that the applicant of a stat doc can lie.

 

I have tried to explain it to you several times as have other posters. We can explain it to you, but we cannot understand it for you. That part is up to you.

[billd766]

50 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That's the same method used by the US Embassy and others.

According to the BE the US Embassy will soon withdraw it's service.

Then one after another, like dominos, the other Embassies services could fall.

 

I cannot see Immigration adopting different requirements for different nationalities.

Big Joke could yet be forced into a U-turn.

I do hope so.

 

One problem he may have is that he may tread on too many toes as there are very many high officials with fingers in the valuable money spinning pie who would not take too kindly to having a source of income cut off. They probably have friends in even higher places than Big Joke and perhaps his next job will be managing inactive posts.

[Tanoshi]

3 hours ago, Spidey said:

The key phrase is "According to the British Embassy", AKA BS Central.

 

Big Joke has not played any part in this debacle, in fact he didn't take his post up as head of Immigration until after the BE had made their decision. So, what is he going to do a U turn on exactly?

Now let me see;

I can believe the British Embassy announcement, from UK Gov employees, who have been directly involved in negotiations with Thai authorities, OR

I can believe your ramblings, of which you can't divulge your source due to signing the official secrets Act.

Yes, I know you could tell me, but then you'd have to kill me.

 

Hard decision to make. Maybe we could have a Poll.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Tanoshi

[Spidey]

Just now, Tanoshi said:

Now let me see;

I can believe the British Embassy announcement, from UK Gov employees, who have been directly involved in negotiations with Thai authorities, OR

I can believe your ramblings, of which you can't divulge your source due to signing the official secrets Act.

Yes, I know you could tell me, but then you'd have to kill me.

 

Hard decision to make. Maybe we could have a Poll.

Up2U

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Now let me see;

I can believe the British Embassy announcement, from UK Gov employees, who have been directly involved in negotiations with Thai authorities, OR

I can believe your ramblings, of which you can't divulge your source due to signing the official secrets Act.

Yes, I know you could tell me, but then you'd have to kill me.

 

Hard decision to make. Maybe we could have a Poll.

Let me see, the BE says you don't need the letter and up until now IO says no letter, no extension, who has the bigger stick ?

[David Walden]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Will you please try to stay on topic which is as I said before is 

 

British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

 

Few posters other than Australians care about what is done in Australia or what you do for YOUR stay in Thailand. It is totally irrelevant to the subject matter.

 

Few if any Brits will fly to Australia because to get a visa there they have to apply to the Thai Embassy which can be done in countries far closer. Also it will NOT be an extension as an extension can ONLY be applied for in Thailand, where of course you have to meet the Thai requirements which at this stage STILL include getting a letter of confirmation from the Embassy. That will cease in December this year.

 

The majority of Brits who used the embassy letter have to provide proof of income. That includes state pension statements and any other pension statements they have.

 

Of COURSE it is possible to cheat and forge a document in just the same way that the applicant of a stat doc can lie.

 

I have tried to explain it to you several times as have other posters. We can explain it to you, but we cannot understand it for you. That part is up to you.

I did suggest there are a few slow learners around???

[vistana]

Someone said that a petition had been started last week.... can anyone give me details of where to find it? i have looked but unable to find it.    Thanks

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, vistana said:

Someone said that a petition had been started last week.... can anyone give me details of where to find it? i have looked but unable to find it.    Thanks

I think that the couple of excellent letters sent to the ambassador that I have read here should have some positive result, if not then I fear that short of a massive demonstration in front of BE nothing will help.

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, vistana said:

Someone said that a petition had been started last week.... can anyone give me details of where to find it? i have looked but unable to find it.    Thanks

 

[vistana]

Thanks Ubonjoe.... for the quick reply.

 

[vistana]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120/moderation-info  So how do we sign the petition?   looks like its being reviewed at the moment to see if meets the requirements. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by vistana

[David Walden]

14 minutes ago, vistana said:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120/moderation-info  So how do we sign the petition?

Having seen that the BE has acknowledged that the present arrangement has more legal holes then Swiss Cheese I think the answer is blowing in the wind.  For the times they are a changing.  la. la, laaaa.

[soalbundy]

5 minutes ago, David Walden said:

Having seen that the BE has acknowledged that the present arrangement has more legal holes then Swiss Cheese I think the answer is blowing in the wind.  For the times they are a changing.  la. la, laaaa.

are you on the beer as well ?

[Thaidream]

The solution is simple -  change the Income Letter and call it a Statutory Declaration- the applicant states his income-  the embassy- gives an Oath in person to the applicant- the Oath indicates that the person is signing  and attesting to what they have said and if lying is subject to penalty of perjury or whatever legal entity exists.

 

This is what the Australian Embassy does and also the American Embassy.  The Australian Embassy even has an announcement on their site indicating  theirs is not an income letter but a Statutory Declaration sworn to. The Aussies are changing nothing- you get the Letter- Off to Thai Imm. If Thai Imm wants more proof- up to them and up to you to provide it.

[dick dasterdly]

40 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

are you on the beer as well ?

To be fair, those of us affected need a few drinks to deal with the lunacy that has been inflicted upon us by the brit. embassy.....

 

And I can understand why other nationalities are also concerned after the brit. embassy stated that the USA was about to follow suit (????) - plus of course, I've no doubt that zero embassies actually verify the information provided by their citizens.

 

As far as I can make out, the brit. embassy was one of the 'better ones' - insofar as it at least demanded supporting documentation.

 

A bit off-topic, but I'd LOVE to have been a fly on the wall at the next meeting/party where the brit. embassador met the US embassador ????!

[David Walden]

31 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The solution is simple -  change the Income Letter and call it a Statutory Declaration- the applicant states his income-  the embassy- gives an Oath in person to the applicant- the Oath indicates that the person is signing  and attesting to what they have said and if lying is subject to penalty of perjury or whatever legal entity exists.

 

This is what the Australian Embassy does and also the American Embassy.  The Australian Embassy even has an announcement on their site indicating  theirs is not an income letter but a Statutory Declaration sworn to. The Aussies are changing nothing- you get the Letter- Off to Thai Imm. If Thai Imm wants more proof- up to them and up to you to provide it.

Thank you Thaidream...Ahhh isn't it nice to know we only have a few slow learning Brits on this site.  Even kindergarten law school know what to do as you have suggested.  Everyone else has been using Stat Decs for years. 

    Quite frankly you really should not need a JP to witness a signature on a Stat Dec at the Australian Embassy in Thailand and have pay Bt3000 for this service.  JP's services in Australia are carried out by people with of repute and are an agent for the Government.  Their services are free and they cannot ask a fee, that's not an optional either, they never get a fee.  The Australian Embassy is technically on Australian soil so it figures the Bt3000 to witness a signature by a JP in Thailand is above Australian law...but then there is the fine print somewhere.  Perhaps I'll put a submission to the ACCC in Aus but really they cannot investigate Government departments but it worth a go.  Perhaps I will start a petition or get some other mug to do have a go...Paul Hogan  Mr Crocodile Mick Dundee could be my legal advisor.

Edited October 15, 2018 by David Walden

[dick dasterdly]

41 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The solution is simple -  change the Income Letter and call it a Statutory Declaration- the applicant states his income-  the embassy- gives an Oath in person to the applicant- the Oath indicates that the person is signing  and attesting to what they have said and if lying is subject to penalty of perjury or whatever legal entity exists.

 

This is what the Australian Embassy does and also the American Embassy.  The Australian Embassy even has an announcement on their site indicating  theirs is not an income letter but a Statutory Declaration sworn to. The Aussies are changing nothing- you get the Letter- Off to Thai Imm. If Thai Imm wants more proof- up to them and up to you to provide it.

Not quite so simple as many areas do not have a british consular service - so it would necessitate travelling to Bangkok.

 

Which reminds me of the panic felt by some of us when we first heard that the brit. embassy would no longer renew passports via the post (edit - in another country, can't remember where).  The new 'system' was that we would have to go to an appointed agent in Bangkok to submit our application, and then wait a day to collect our new passport from the agent....

 

Fortunately, other agents have appeared to deal with this on our behalf - negating the need to stay in Bangkok for 2 days.  And yes, some of us would find this a problem before some poster argues that this isn't a problem....

 

Edit - And I've no doubt the last thing the brit. embassy wants is 250 odd people (assuming the embassy rep. was at least right when it comes to this figure) turning up each month to swear a pointless oath to obtain the letter!

Edited October 15, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Will27]

12 minutes ago, David Walden said:

Thank you Thaidream...Ahhh isn't it nice to know we only have a few slow learning Brits on this site.  Even kindergarten law school know what to do as you have suggested.  Everyone else has been using Stat Decs for years. 

    Quite frankly you really should not need a JP to witness a signature on a Stat Dec at the Australian Embassy in Thailand and have pay Bt3000 for this service.  JP's services in Australia are carried out by people with of repute and are an agent for the Government.  Their services are free and they cannot ask a fee, that's not an optional either, they never get a fee.  The Australian Embassy is technically on Australian soil so it figures the Bt3000 to witness a signature by a JP in Thailand is above Australian law...but then there is the fine print somewhere.  Perhaps I'll put a submission to the ACCC in Aus but really they cannot investigate Government departments but it worth a go.  Perhaps I will start a petition or get some other mug to do have a go...Paul Hogan  Mr Crocodile Mick Dundee could be my legal advisor.

Not sure where you're getting the 3000 Baht figure from.

 

Last time I checked it was $71 Oz or about 1600 Baht.