BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[wayned]

5 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I do not believe there is any such law. It has simply become a standard procedure, adopted by most, or maybe all of the offices around the country.

Actually it is part of the police order but I'm not going to try to find it,.  It has been posted before on one of the 139 previous pages!

[Moonlover]

9 minutes ago, wayned said:

Actually it is part of the police order but I'm not going to try to find it,.  It has been posted before on one of the 139 previous pages!

Yes thanks, I read it myself quite recently.

[Joe Mcseismic]

21 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I go personally bringing original statements/letters from the state pension people and from my company pension, I produce the print version from my internet banking statements for every month that show the incoming payments, my passport and my yellow book. Since I go to them every year I am in their computer system so my income can be compared to last years declaration, any discrepancy, for instance, why has my state pension increased from last year, I can show the letter informing me of the increase. No affidavit, no swearing (that would be theatrical, since I am producing the documents I am already saying this is true). The documents are taken and I am told to go back to my seat and come when called, after 15 to 20 minuets I am called to take and pay for the letter 1,400 Baht. It is signed by the attache and stamped by the embassy. Once  several years ago I had inadvertently given them a copy of one of the letters and the certification was refused, I couldn't tell the difference but obviously they can.  

There has to be a system to "verify" ALL income streams, not just official government ones and it has to be done by an organization that is NOT Thai Immigration. You think they are going to give themselves more work? They tried to fob it off on the US and British embassies, who quite rightly said "sod that" and have now discontinued the letter.

Stop looking at this problem from just your own circumstances and widen your perspective.

[ubonjoe]

11 hours ago, 007 RED said:

So where did this requirement for a letter come from?  I strongly suspect that it originates from the requirements to change visa type – from tourist to Non-O for the purpose of Retirement

It goes back much farther than that info existed. I would say it was long before they started doing a change of visa status for retirement or marriage.

The income letter requirement has existed since they started doing the extensions based on retirement or perhaps marriage/family.

I think it may be in a ministerial regulation or order going back to when they first started allowing extensions based upon an income. 

[ubonjoe]

27 minutes ago, wayned said:

Actually it is part of the police order but I'm not going to try to find it,.

It is not in any police order for extensions of stay that I have checked going back the one done in 2006 and in 2008 and 2014.

For retirement it only states this in the clause. "(3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month:".

For marriage it states this. "(6) In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month" It is a little different since the husband is allowed to work here.

[Esso49]

8 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It goes back much farther than that info existed. I would say it was long before they started doing a change of visa status for retirement or marriage.

The income letter requirement has existed since they started doing the extensions based on retirement or perhaps marriage/family.

I think it may be in a ministerial regulation or order going back to when they first started allowing extensions based upon an income. 

I wonder how long ago that was then Ubonjoe when they started to allow extensions based on income.   But also it seems an anomaly that retirement extensions are relatively much easier than an extension based on marriage. The latter surely indicating more stability in settlement here ? 

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

I wonder how long ago that was then Ubonjoe when they started to allow extensions based on income.   But also it seems an anomaly that retirement extensions are relatively much easier than an extension based on marriage. The latter surely indicating more stability in settlement here ? 

Retirement extensions started back in mid nineties. No sure of which year. Marriage/family goes back much further than that as far as I know.

Since the extension is based upon marriage/family instead of just age and financial proof for retirement is the reason is the reason for the tighter requirements.

[wayned]

18 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

It is not in any police order for extensions of stay that I have checked going back the one done in 2006 and in 2008 and 2014.

For retirement it only states this in the clause. "(3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month:".

For marriage it states this. "(6) In the case of marriage to a Thai woman, the alien husband must earn an average annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month" It is a little different since the husband is allowed to work here.

If that's the case, where did the requirement foe the income letter from the Embassies ever come from and why won't the IO, ay least mine, state that they will only accept an income letter until the Thai law is changed?

[Esso49]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Retirement extensions started back in mid nineties. No sure of which year. Marriage/family goes back much further than that as far as I know.

Since the extension is based upon marriage/family instead of just age and financial proof for retirement is the reason is the reason for the tighter requirements.

I hear what you say, and marriage extensions in my view are not onerous,  but fundamentally an extension due to marriage is surely a better indicator as to stability and the potential for longer term benefits to the nation due to children growing up and likewise contributing,  than for retirees, most I assume are just single ?

 The reports that immigration are now visiting some retirees as part of the application process is maybe a sign of a change of times perhaps given how easily it has been in the past to get a retirement extension  ? Your thoughts and insights greatly appreciated.

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, wayned said:

If that's the case, where did the requirement foe the income letter from the Embassies ever come from and why won't the IO, ay least mine, state that they will only accept an income letter until the Thai law is changed?

This is what I wrote earlier.

37 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The income letter requirement has existed since they started doing the extensions based on retirement or perhaps marriage/family.

I think it may be in a ministerial regulation or order going back to when they first started allowing extensions based upon an income. 

 

[malagateddy]

I hear what you say, and marriage extensions in my view are not onerous,  but fundamentally an extension due to marriage is surely a better indicator as to stability and the potential for longer term benefits to the nation due to children growing up and likewise contributing,  than for retirees, most I assume are just single ?
 The reports that immigration are now visiting some retirees as part of the application process is maybe a sign of a change of times perhaps given how easily it has been in the past to get a retirement extension  ? Your thoughts and insights greatly appreciated.

I am married and took advice from a good friend of mine who is a regular poster on thaivisa re retirement or marriage extension.
I went down the retirement route..far less p/work involved..easier for both the I.O and myself.
I'm fortunate to have the 800000 baht in an instant access interest paying savings a/c.
Any I.O. paying me a visit would be made welcome I may add.
Cheers


Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[soalbundy]

24 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

There has to be a system to "verify" ALL income streams, not just official government ones and it has to be done by an organization that is NOT Thai Immigration. You think they are going to give themselves more work? They tried to fob it off on the US and British embassies, who quite rightly said "sod that" and have now discontinued the letter.

Stop looking at this problem from just your own circumstances and widen your perspective.

I can only report on my own experience, I have no control over the required verification. One thing has been made clear from this thread is that a legal verification is either not possible or not practical. Up until the hissy fit by the BE the system of pragmatic compromise practiced by the embassies and accepted by TI worked well (the affidavit system whereby no proof was needed by the US embassy was definitely out of order) the different embassies could read the documents of their own country, government or otherwise and with trust and knowledge of their countries systems could certify the income of the applicant. Now, at the moment only for UK and US citizens, everything is in the air. Why we don't really know, was the BE being too cautious ? were they told by FCO auditors to stop issuing the letters ? was a TI official suddenly wanting more than could be supplied ? Whatever comes next can again only be a compromise or the lump sum method, we can only wait and see.

[Esso49]

2 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

I am married and took advice from a good friend of mine who is a regular poster on thaivisa re retirement or marriage extension.
I went down the retirement route..far less p/work involved..easier for both the I.O and myself.
I'm fortunate to have the 800000 baht in an instant access interest paying savings a/c.
Any I.O. paying me a visit would be made welcome I may add.
Cheers


Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yes I understand that previously the retirement route was easier, which is what I said, and if IO do indeed step up visits, then why not opt for an extension based on marriage if married to a Thai ?   Hardly onerous to supply a few photo's and copy of marriage certificate , and if applicable copies of children's birth certificates in addition to that you have already had to supply is it ?  So why not go that way ? 

[Joe Mcseismic]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I can only report on my own experience, I have no control over the required verification. One thing has been made clear from this thread is that a legal verification is either not possible or not practical. Up until the hissy fit by the BE the system of pragmatic compromise practiced by the embassies and accepted by TI worked well (the affidavit system whereby no proof was needed by the US embassy was definitely out of order) the different embassies could read the documents of their own country, government or otherwise and with trust and knowledge of their countries systems could certify the income of the applicant. Now, at the moment only for UK and US citizens, everything is in the air. Why we don't really know, was the BE being too cautious ? were they told by FCO auditors to stop issuing the letters ? was a TI official suddenly wanting more than could be supplied ? Whatever comes next can again only be a compromise or the lump sum method, we can only wait and see.

Yes, but, you and other posters keep posting proposed solutions for the BE, or TI that address your own circumstances only.

What is the point of that? You think either one will start making different rules for different people?

[malagateddy]

At any given time I could go down the marriage route..but right now I'm content to go down the "easy/lazy" route.
Through my working life sometimes there was heaps of p/work with local authority..maybe now I want as little p/work involvement as possible
Cheers

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Yes, but, you and other posters keep posting proposed solutions for the BE, or TI that address your own circumstances only.

What is the point of that? You think either one will start making different rules for different people?

I don't think that I have made proposals about changing the system (I may be wrong) but have questioned the wisdom of changing a tried and tested procedure. I think that for instance writing a caveat at the end of the letter was a red cape to a bull and was being over cautious, they were only ever certifying the income on hand from documents shown to them, that's basically all the German embassy does albeit in a more positive manner and without the caveat, I have the feeling that the BE awakened a sleeping dog at the wrong time. The Thais are a pragmatic lot and much can be reached with good will but not by shouting, ''We cant L E G A L L Y verify the documents'' I dare say they know that already. 

[luckyluke]

10 minutes ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

start making different rules for different people?

Assuming it was the Embassies of the E.U. which stopped to issue Affidavits/Income Letters.

 

Would the British insist on a change of the Immigration rules ?

 

Or should their reaction be, a non so polite version of

 

" What they think they are "

[Kadilo]

5 hours ago, richiejom said:

Whats the percentage fee on Transferwise?  I only used them once and I remember the 500 baht fee from Kasikorn but speed was great.

I sent 65000 baht to my Kasikorn account from my UK account using transferwise on Friday, cost £1542.20, with a fee of £12.99 so you lose about 0.3 baht from the actual rate.  Arrived Saturday afternoon.  There ii no fee from Kasikorn. 

Use them all the time, great service. 

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Kadilo

[Moonlover]

15 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

I sent 65000 baht to my Kasikorn account from my UK account using transferwise on Friday, cost £1542.20, with a fee of £12.99 so you lose about 0.3 baht from the actual rate.  Arrived Saturday afternoon.  There ii no fee from Kasikorn. 

Use them all the time, great service. 

 

Yes I'm heading this way as well. 2 of my 3 pensions were remitted directly to Krungsri, but I've change all that now, since this embassy letter business blew up.

 

Now all pensions go to TransferWise and then one monthly transfer to Krungsri.

 

Easy to prove my monthly income to Thai Imm if I stay here. Easy to ship my money elsewhere if I decide to move on.

 

The ball's in Thai Imm's court.

[sniggie]

12 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

I sent 65000 baht to my Kasikorn account from my UK account using transferwise on Friday, cost £1542.20, with a fee of £12.99 so you lose about 0.3 baht from the actual rate.  Arrived Saturday afternoon.  There ii no fee from Kasikorn. 

Use them all the time, great service. 

 

Many of us will already be using Transferwise. The concern is whether the Immigration service will want to see that this is a direct transfer from abroad. The type of system used by Transferwise has been queried as to whether transactions show up as an external or internal transfer. Some time ago I was using a different forex company. Unbeknownst to me they started using a bank that had no direct payment system into Kbank. The transfers were coming into the kingdom via Bangkok bank so showed up on my Kbank book as an internal transfer.  We all need to keep a close eye on any new income requirements.  It would be pretty rotten to go along to the immigration office thinking we had done everything by the book only to be rejected!  

[Kadilo]

2 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Yes I'm heading this way as well. 2 of my 3 pensions were remitted directly to Krungsri, but I've change all that now, since this embassy letter business blew up.

 

Now all pensions go to TransferWise and then one monthly transfer to Krungsri.

 

Easy to prove my monthly income to Thai Imm if I stay here. Easy to ship my money elsewhere if I decide to move on.

 

The ball's in Thai Imm's court.

Pretty much my thinking at the moment hence the first payment made Friday. 

[Moonlover]

1 minute ago, sniggie said:

Many of us will already be using Transferwise. The concern is whether the Immigration service will want to see that this is a direct transfer from abroad. The type of system used by Transferwise has been queried as to whether transactions show up as an external or internal transfer. Some time ago I was using a different forex company. Unbeknownst to me they started using a bank that had no direct payment system into Kbank. The transfers were coming into the kingdom via Bangkok bank so showed up on my Kbank book as an internal transfer.  We all need to keep a close eye on any new income requirements.  It would be pretty rotten to go along to the immigration office thinking we had done everything by the book only to be rejected!  

Every time you make a T/W transaction, a transaction slip is generated which clearly shows that it was a remittance from abroad.

 

They can be downloaded as a PDF file and saved. Clear evidence, on paper, should you need it.

[Kadilo]

9 minutes ago, sniggie said:

Many of us will already be using Transferwise. The concern is whether the Immigration service will want to see that this is a direct transfer from abroad. The type of system used by Transferwise has been queried as to whether transactions show up as an external or internal transfer. Some time ago I was using a different forex company. Unbeknownst to me they started using a bank that had no direct payment system into Kbank. The transfers were coming into the kingdom via Bangkok bank so showed up on my Kbank book as an internal transfer.  We all need to keep a close eye on any new income requirements.  It would be pretty rotten to go along to the immigration office thinking we had done everything by the book only to be rejected!  

Yes I’ve read them posts too, some saying transferwise shows as a foreign external transaction, some saying not. 

 

For me, until any confirmation is made by the TI I will soldier down this route and keep a paper trail both in my Kasikorn account and UK and just try and prepare for the worst case. 

 

If down the the road TW isnt deemed an acceptable method of transferring into Thailand I will change to a different route, but tbh at this time until officially told different I’m happy with using them. 

 

Edit: see Moonlovers posts above.......that’s how I see it. 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Kadilo

[billd766]

6 hours ago, richiejom said:

Whats the percentage fee on Transferwise?  I only used them once and I remember the 500 baht fee from Kasikorn but speed was great.

I won't know for certain until next month when I do my first transfer.

[steve73]

Transferwise is MUCH cheaper than almost every alternative (except perhaps Cash exchange at Super-rich, or similar) but only for GBP. 

 

The total cost is 1.50 plus 0.55% of the funds transferred, using a mid-market rate of exchange (MMR).  So a 65,000 bt transfer would require 1541.71GBP at this time, with the total fee of 9.92GBP.  The FX rate applied is 42.43397 (MMR), so the effective (net) rate is 42.16098.  This rate is FIXED when you set-up the transfer.

For comparison, a Swift transfer from a UK bank to a Thai bank would entail the Swift Fee  (5-25 GBP depending on your bank), the current exchange rate is quoted as 41.90625 (for Kasikorn) plus a 500bt receiving fee.  Assuming even the lowest Swift Fee (of 5GBP), a net 65,000 transfer would cost a total of 1568.01, i.e. an effective rate of 41.45375, and costing 26.30 GBP more than TW (or 1109Bt).  Not huge, but certainly significant (and my Bank charges a 20GBP swift fee..!).

 

In my experience, TW transfers arrives the next working day (so a Fri/Sat transfer arrives Mon).  Swift transfers would sometimes take up to a week, and the ACTUAL exchange rate applied would be determined at the time of arrival (invariably it seem to be the lowest during that week, co-incidence perhaps.)

 

I've just checked the current Super-rich GBP rate - 42.05 so even this is slightly less than the net TW rate..... some days it's a little higher, but with TW you don't need to arrange a flight back to the UK to bring the cash in, and there may not be a SR booth close to you.  Thai bank cash rates are usually very poor (for GBP), with e.g. Kasik currently offering just 41.3373.  

 

Thai banks appear to give a much better TT buying rate for USD and EUR (i.e. much closer to the MMR that TW uses), so there will be less savings to be made, or possibly even slightly more expensive... But you still FIX the rate when you send. 

 

In all cases it pays to check at the time of transfer... Good luck.

Edited October 28, 2018 by steve73

[Pattaya46]

19 minutes ago, steve73 said:

The total cost is 1.50 plus 0.55% of the funds transferred, using a mid-market rate of exchange (MMR).  So a 65,000 bt transfer would require 1541.71GBP with the total cost of 9.92GBP.  The FX rate applied is 42.43397, so the effective (net) rate is 42.16098.  This rate is FIXED when you set-up the transfer.

For comparison, a Swift transfer from a UK bank to a Thai bank would entail the Swift Fee  (5-25 GBP depending on your bank), the current exchange rate is quoted as 41.90625 (for Kasikorn) plus a 500bt receiving fee.  Assuming even the lowest Swift Fee (of 5GBP), a net 65,000 transfer would cost a total of 1568.01, i.e. an effective rate of 41.45375, and costing 26.30 GBP more than TW (or 1109Bt).  Not huge, but certainly significant.

A good demonstration, but the difference is not as big as you said.

 

- First, you use today's rate for TW but Friday's rate for Kasikornbank. TW rate Friday was not so good as today at 42.21825, so your transfer on Friday required in fact more than 1548 GBP

- Second, you put 5 GBP as minimum bank fee but it still seems a lot to me . I am not from UK, but PostFinance bank fee for international transfer is 2 CHF, so about 1.6 GBP. Why would UK banks be more expensive ?

- Third, you add a 500 baht receiving fee, but not all banks have such a high fee. Bangkokbank by example has a 200 baht fee only. 

 

Global consequence of these 3 points is a difference of less than 10 GBP between TW and my bank.

[Spidey]

2 hours ago, Kadilo said:

Yes I’ve read them posts too, some saying transferwise shows as a foreign external transaction, some saying not. 

 

For me, until any confirmation is made by the TI I will soldier down this route and keep a paper trail both in my Kasikorn account and UK and just try and prepare for the worst case. 

 

If down the the road TW isnt deemed an acceptable method of transferring into Thailand I will change to a different route, but tbh at this time until officially told different I’m happy with using them. 

 

Edit: see Moonlovers posts above.......that’s how I see it. 

 

 

 

The only indication that I've seen from TI is that they are going to insist on an embassy letter as proof of income for the foreseeable future. I really can't see that changing because 2 embassies (from many) have thrown their toys out of the pram.

 

I really can't see why you are going to all this trouble. I will continue to transfer my money from my UK bank account using my Halifax Clarity credit card, transferring an average of 80k baht per month at zero cost to me and taking minutes between leaving my account in the UK and arriving in my Thai account.

 

Meanwhile, I am already putting things in place to transfer 1m baht into my Thai account next September.

 

Any other course of action is completely futile and is wasted money.

 

Get with the program guys, the 65k baht/ month income route, to obtain your visa extension, is dead and buried. Well at least for Brits and Americans anyway.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Spidey

[rak sa_ngop]

Transferwise transfer to my Bangkok Bank Savings Account shows up as a FTT code transfer ( Foreign Transfer I assume although this code in not listed at the back of my savings account passbook).

 

But a Transferwise transfer to my TMB 'No Fixed Account' just shows up as a NT code which is 'Transfer Deposit - No Book'.

 

I haven't tried downloading the Transferwise Transfer Slip pdf as advised in a  post above.

Edited October 28, 2018 by rak sa_ngop

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, rak sa_ngop said:

Transferwise transfer to my Bangkok Bank Savings Account shows up as a FTT code transfer ( Foreign Transfer I assume although this code in not listed at the back of my savings account passbook).

 

But a Transferwise transfer to my TMB 'No Fixed Account' just shows up as a NT code which is 'Transfer Deposit - No Book'.

 

I haven't tried downloading the Transferwise Transfer Slip pdf as advised in a  post above.

I get the same NT code for my small British pension which is transferred by DWP to my BKK bank account

[OJAS]

9 hours ago, richiejom said:

Whats the percentage fee on Transferwise?

 

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

I won't know for certain until next month when I do my first transfer.

For each payment made by bank transfer 0.55% + £1.50:-

 

https://transferwise.com/pricing/gbp-to-thb

 

Your receiving Thai bank account won't levy any extra charge.