BREAKING NEWS British Embassy Bangkok to Stop Certification of Income Letters

[luckyluke]

 

I am speculating,

don't know how you categorize your posts Tanoshi,

but it doesn't really matter.

I wish I had some certitudes.

At least British & Americans were clearly informed by their embassy.

[Tanoshi]

10 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

 

I am speculating,

don't know how you categorize your posts Tanoshi,

but it doesn't really matter.

I wish I had some certitudes.

At least British & Americans were clearly informed by their embassy.

https://thailand.embassy.gov.au/bkok/Notarial_Services.html

We understand that the British Embassy in Bangkok will no longer be providing British nationals with letters confirming their income from 1 January 2019.

The Australian Embassy does not issue income letters. Our notarial services include the witnessing of Australian statutory declarations for Australian citizens, or for use in Australia. This process remains unchanged.

 

The Australian Embassy is clearly aware of the situation.

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Nobody can, anywhere, with anything, a certain amount of reasonable trust is required, it all boils down to what is reasonable.

Agreed and at some point Thai Imm- if they want to continue with the provisions of the  65K income stream are going to have to accept this- Income stream is easy to prove- with pension letters- foreign and local bank accounts- debit cards- etc.  All entities such as mortgage companies/loan companies  ask for more than one proof- with often double and treble sources and cross reference the numbers.  You get the loan- you have to pay it back.  You get the extension- you have to have money to live on. It's really that simple.

[Pattaya46]

3 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

The pertinent question is - What next?

Ask the British Embassy.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Pattaya46

[Sheryl]

 
Ditto on that point. AFAIK, the British Embassy up till now has probably gone as far as is humanely possible for an Embassy in a foreign country to certify/verify/confirm the income of its expat citizens -- certainly much farther than the American Embassy ever went.
 
So we're now left with a situation where, at least for the time being, many other less certifying embassies than the Brits are continuing to issue income letters. So the question becomes, what's Thai Immigration going to do with the start of 2019 --  stop accepting any income letters, or only from those Embassies that have ceased to issue them.
 
Until that part shakes out, it still seems to remain kind of murky just who's chiefly responsible for this mess -- Thai Immigration, or the two Embassies for failing to manage the Thai bureaucracy.
 

Or lack of coordination between Embassies and Immigration. Apparently the Embassies were told certain things by Imm at a meeting back in May that Imm has not in fact acted on/implemented to date (and we have no idea if they are planning to/anything in the works) and then went ahead with their announcements to stop issuing letters without first ascertaining that Imm had done the needful to enable retirees to use the income method without an Embassy letter.

Safe to assume any meetings the Embassy had were with central level Imm officials. These may be several steps removed from the staff who actually process applications.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[luckyluke]

29 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

The Australian Embassy is clearly aware of the situation.

Sure, I even pretty certain that every consulate or embassy is aware of the situation. 

Informed by the T. I. or via via I don't know. 

Again not important to me. 

As per today  the other embassies and  the T. I. don't feel the need to react officially. 

Which can be interpreted as everything is as usual. 

The consulates, embassies other than the U. K. & U.S.A. continue to issue Affidavits/Letter of Income, the T. I. continue to accept them. 

So far is this the reality in my opinion, rest is speculation. 

 

[OneeyedJohn]

my letter of income from BE was signed by a Proconsul 

Edited October 30, 2018 by OneeyedJohn

[soalbundy]

When Abraham asked God for his name at the burning bush he received the answer, ''I am that I am'' even he wouldn't confirm anything, it's a bit rich from TI to expect more of the embassies.

[Tanoshi]

53 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Or lack of coordination between Embassies and Immigration. Apparently the Embassies were told certain things by Imm at a meeting back in May that Imm has not in fact acted on/implemented to date (and we have no idea if they are planning to/anything in the works) and then went ahead with their announcements to stop issuing letters without first ascertaining that Imm had done the needful to enable retirees to use the income method without an Embassy letter.

Safe to assume any meetings the Embassy had were with central level Imm officials. These may be several steps removed from the staff who actually process applications.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

If you listen to the video interview from 9 minutes in, the BE are clearly under the impression from TI, that proving income by producing 12 Thai bank statements has always been acceptable. It's because of this alternative the BE withdrew their service.

The BE also state they will follow the events until the end of December to ensure all local offices are informed by Bangkok of this alternative.

 

If come January, local IO's are not conversant with this alternative, then British expats should complain to the BE to once again clarify the position before the validity of any Embassy letter expires.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Or lack of coordination between Embassies and Immigration. Apparently the Embassies were told certain things by Imm at a meeting back in May that Imm has not in fact acted on/implemented to date (and we have no idea if they are planning to/anything in the works) and then went ahead with their announcements to stop issuing letters without first ascertaining that Imm had done the needful to enable retirees to use the income method without an Embassy letter.

Safe to assume any meetings the Embassy had were with central level Imm officials. These may be several steps removed from the staff who actually process applications.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

that very last sentence of yours explains why dealing with authorities in LoS is interesting and sometimes a challenge

[Sheryl]

If you listen to the video interview from 9 minutes in, the BE are clearly under the impression from TI, that proving income by producing 12 Thai bank statements has always been acceptable. It's because of this alternative the BE withdrew their service.
The BE also state they will follow the events until the end of December to ensure all local offices are informed by Bangkok of this alternative.
 
If come January, local IO's are not conversant with this alternative, then British expats should complain to the BE to once again clarify the position before the validity of any Embassy letter expires.

This us precisely the problem and US Embassy is under the same misimpression.

Entirely possible that some central level higher up at TI told them this, but local Imm offices do not know this/have not been informed and it is going to take a circular from Bkk to inform them. My fear us that none is in the works because central level is unaware of the problem. A train wreck in the making. I urge everyone affected to alert the BE/US Embassy now so that they can communucate the issue to their counterparts at TI.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[wayned]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Safe to assume any meetings the Embassy had were with central level Imm officials. These may be several steps removed from the staff who actually process applications.

And then you have these officials talking to a crew of up and coming consuls from the embassies that are here on diplomatic passports for their "tour of duty" who don't understand the Thai immigration regulations and have not been proactive and discussed the problems with those involved and do understand.  The uninformed meeting with the know it alls  making policy that affects the lives of thousands that live here.  Sounds like normal governmental procedure!

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Sheryl said:

This us precisely the problem and US Embassy is under the same misimpression.

Entirely possible that some central level higher up at TI told them this, but local Imm offices do not know this/have not been informed and it is going to take a circular from Bkk to inform them. My fear us that none is in the works because central level is unaware of the problem. A train wreck in the making. I urge everyone affected to alert the BE/US Embassy now so that they can communucate the issue to their counterparts at TI.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

But that would mean that without any reason or pressure to do so the TI is proposing to change or offer more possibilities to prove income, doesn't sound right to me. If this was the case ie. 'you don't need the embassy letter anymore' why are all the other embassies still issuing the letter and in the case of the embassy I use saying we have no plans to stop the letter ?

[Hoppyone]

13 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Considering there are only 77 Countries with an Embassy in Thailand.

 

Good point but still agents won’t be in short supply of work.Cheers

[AGareth2]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

But that would mean that without any reason or pressure to do so the TI is proposing to change or offer more possibilities to prove income, doesn't sound right to me. If this was the case ie. 'you don't need the embassy letter anymore' why are all the other embassies still issuing the letter and in the case of the embassy I use saying we have no plans to stop the letter ?

nice little earner

[JimGant]

It's all becoming pretty obvious, isn't it? Thailand is tired of too many foreigners not able to live sufficiently in Thailand, to include many who are stiffing hospitals. This includes some (many?) who have historically shown completely valid and verifiable income statements -- but whose income -- for many and varied reasons -- is not arriving in sufficient amounts into Thailand. Answer: Have that money *arrive* in sufficient amounts into Thailand. And the easiest and most efficient means to do this -- and verify it -- is to have that money deposited into a Thai bank account. No, Immigration is not going to look at 36 ATM receipts (the number for 65k/mo ATM pulls).

 

So, get ready. Sure the combo method will still be around, maybe even with tweaked numbers to our benefit. And, yeah, embassy income letters will be around for awhile, except of course for the US and UK. But these letters will be phased out eventually.

 

Pretty simple, actually. Thailand weeds out those of insufficient means to live here. And maybe there will be some serendipity -- like, lines at CM Immigration becoming manageable.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

nice little earner

What the Germans charge wont make the goose fat

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

Ask the British Embassy.

But don't hold your breath waiting for an answer.

[wayned]

11 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

you don't need the embassy letter anymore' why are all the other embassies still issuing the letter and in the case of the embassy I use saying we have no plans to stop the letter ?

The statement "you don't need the embassy letter anymore" is totally a misinterpretation of the Thai police order that states "or proof of 65000 baht income per month".  The problem is somewhere there is a Directive in Thai, either ministerial or interdepartmental with in immigration, that established the criteria for the income letter.  The Embassies should go back and check their records on exactly why they starting issuing the income letter.

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, JimGant said:

It's all becoming pretty obvious, isn't it? Thailand is tired of too many foreigners not able to live sufficiently in Thailand, to include many who are stiffing hospitals. This includes some (many?) who have historically shown completely valid and verifiable income statements -- but whose income -- for many and varied reasons -- is not arriving in sufficient amounts into Thailand. Answer: Have that money *arrive* in sufficient amounts into Thailand. And the easiest and most efficient means to do this -- and verify it -- is to have that money deposited into a Thai bank account. No, Immigration is not going to look at 36 ATM receipts (the number for 65k/mo ATM pulls).

 

So, get ready. Sure the combo method will still be around, maybe even with tweaked numbers to our benefit. And, yeah, embassy income letters will be around for awhile, except of course for the US and UK. But these letters will be phased out eventually.

 

Pretty simple, actually. Thailand weeds out those of insufficient means to live here. And maybe there will be some serendipity -- like, lines at CM Immigration becoming manageable.

There is a biscuit in Germany called' Spekulatius', I suspect you have eaten a box full

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, wayned said:

The statement "you don't need the embassy letter anymore" is totally a misinterpretation of the Thai police order that states "or proof of 65000 baht income per month".  The problem is somewhere there is a Directive in Thai, either ministerial or interdepartmental with in immigration, that established the criteria for the income letter.  The Embassies should go back and check their records on exactly why they starting issuing the income letter.

because it was easy for them ?  or maybe foreigners at that time had a hard job getting a Thai bank account.

[frodo77]

18 hours ago, mfd101 said:

So how do the documents you provide 'PROVE' your income? If everyone could manage that magic proof, there wouldn't be a problem!  I assume you mean that the documents you provide SUPPORT YOUR claims about your income, but it's hard to see how they PROVE anything.

 

Which is the nub of the problem: the Thais say they want something which noone in Thailand can give them, short of a 1-month wait as assorted police forces and taxation agencies around the world leap into action with thousands of new employees whose sole job is to fix Thailand's immigration problems ... It could be of course that the Thais don't really want PROOF at all: it's just a mistranslation which the embassies could point out and it would all then just go away as a misunderstanding!

My official Income Tax return.

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, frodo77 said:

My official Income Tax return.

which they can make sense of ? good job it's not a French, German, Dutch,Italian or Spanish tax form eh ?

[Tanoshi]

42 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

This us precisely the problem and US Embassy is under the same misimpression.

Entirely possible that some central level higher up at TI told them this, but local Imm offices do not know this/have not been informed and it is going to take a circular from Bkk to inform them. My fear us that none is in the works because central level is unaware of the problem. A train wreck in the making. I urge everyone affected to alert the BE/US Embassy now so that they can communucate the issue to their counterparts at TI.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

It's quite possible that proof of income has always been available through deposits in a Thai bank, bank statements and a letter from the bank, same as deposited funds.

 

Immigration orders are very vague regarding proof of income:

'Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month: or' is the exact wording.

No mention of the method of evidence, in a foreign bank, a Thai bank, or the Embassy income letter we are all familiar with.

 

It would be interesting if a British expat resident in Bangkok, would actually be prepared to test the information.

i.e. Submitting 12 months Thai bank statements without a BE letter.

 

 

[Tanoshi]

26 minutes ago, frodo77 said:

My official Income Tax return.

How can you 'verify' them as an authentic tax return?

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

It's quite possible that proof of income has always been available through deposits in a Thai bank, bank statements and a letter from the bank, same as deposited funds.

 

Immigration orders are very vague regarding proof of income:

'Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month: or' is the exact wording.

No mention of the method of evidence, in a foreign bank, a Thai bank, or the Embassy income letter we are all familiar with.

 

It would be interesting if a British expat resident in Bangkok, would actually be prepared to test the information.

i.e. Submitting 12 months Thai bank statements without a BE letter.

 

 

There have been reports here of people trying that and getting rejected. Go get an embassy letter! This is new territory. People from major nations not being about to get a letter and sadly it really is premature to make any predictions with any confidence. Because the letters are still being issued and will be good for six months after that. So this grey area could last a really, really long time. How does that leave people as far as their planning? It's not rocket science. Fund the bank accounts and prepare for using seasoned bank account method IF YOU CAN. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Jingthing

[Tanoshi]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Fund the bank accounts and prepare for using seasoned bank account method IF YOU CAN. 

Agreed, but if we are left in the situation where only 800K, or 400K respectively deposited in a Thai bank is the only option, then that becomes a major problem for many expats.

[Tanoshi]

16 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There have been reports here of people trying that and getting rejected.

In Bangkok?

Recently, since the announcements were made?

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

This us precisely the problem and US Embassy is under the same misimpression.

Entirely possible that some central level higher up at TI told them this, but local Imm offices do not know this/have not been informed and it is going to take a circular from Bkk to inform them. My fear us that none is in the works because central level is unaware of the problem. A train wreck in the making. I urge everyone affected to alert the BE/US Embassy now so that they can communucate the issue to their counterparts at TI.

As I mentioned previously- citizens need to remind their Embassy  both US/UK that they promised to ease the transition for their citizens. I have sent my comments to the  US Embassy already.  I hope others will do the same and remind the Embassies that we need their co-operation to ensure a smooth transition.

 

From what I have read on the forum- either a Us or UK citizen at CW was asked in a survey what he was going to do next year when his extension came due- the IO was marking down the answer- so for sure the line Officer/line super has 'the word'. I believe he was there for an extension with the Embassy Letter.

 

I am confident CM; Jomtien/Pattaya and Udon will all get the word as they deal with large numbers of people seeking extensions.  The other offices  may or may not or if they get it- may not understand the implications.

 

I honestly don't think Thai Imm is all that concerned- at the moment-  Both Us/UK can still get Embassy letters good for 6 months- and one can apply  45 days early at most places- so Thai Imm  feels no rush.

The real test will be when someone arrives after the New Year and is a citizen from either the US/UK and cannot get the Embassy Letter- and wants to use the income method or someone wanting to renew their extension and never got the word on no letters  after Jan 1.

[Jingthing]

58 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

In Bangkok?

Recently, since the announcements were made?

Not that I'm aware of. Embassy letters are still being issued. Is it possible for people to be PATIENT about this? Thai immigration may surprise us and make a definitive announcement sooner than later. Until then, just face it .. we don't know and we can't know.