Visa letter effects - how widespread?

[1FinickyOne]

I have heard about a couple of people being effected and changing life plans, but how widespread is it? Do you know of people effected by the change? 

 

Is it enough that it might have any impact on Real Estate markets or businesses that cater to expats? I would guess if they don't have 800,000 to put in a bank then they would not likely be buying condos or be big spenders...

[1FinickyOne]

Is there any way to get this thread back on track?

 

Do any of you know people effected by the changes?

[marcusarelus]

8 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

Is there any way to get this thread back on track?

 

Do any of you know people effected by the changes?

The only ones I know are posting on Thai Visa.  20 or 30.  Somewhere I read how many the BE processed maybe a couple of thousand a year but I'm not sure but it was mentioned.  My estimate would be over 1000 and under 5000 and out of that I think 3 will actually leave Thailand. 

[totally thaied up]

40 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

The only ones I know are posting on Thai Visa.  20 or 30.  Somewhere I read how many the BE processed maybe a couple of thousand a year but I'm not sure but it was mentioned.  My estimate would be over 1000 and under 5000 and out of that I think 3 will actually leave Thailand. 

I have enquired today about getting my wife Permanent Residency back in Australia.

 

I am looking ahead now to things because if things change too much in Thailand over the next so many years, I will need to change things up. If I had bucket loads of money, I would not care but I don't. Staying here has costs; health insurance is one of those costs you cannot ill afford not to have when you don't have a pile of backup money.

 

My wife and I would prefer to stay in Thailand but say if the current Police Orders get changed and the costs rise a great deal and add to this the fact that being a married man to a Thai does not give you much back (apart from the 400K Visa) as in the sense, no subsidized health care, you are pretty much on the back foot. If I was an American, well being here might be better off then in the States due to also having to pay for your health costs but the fact remaining is in Australia, you still have Medicare to look after you for the basic things and that is a lot better then nothing.

 

My biggest and only problem with living in Thailand is the healthcare/insurance costs. If it was not for health care, I would not have a worry in the world. If only the Government came up with a paid package (something affordable we could pay into for life) for those of us married and living in country with a family, things could improve somewhat.

 

So, yes, I am looking at future alternatives because I have too. Maybe not now, but maybe over the next 5-10 years and I need to start thinking now.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, giddyup said:

Isn't that typical Thai though? They'd rather let a house crumble into dust than sell it at a loss. There are a couple of houses in our gated village that have never been lived in (now falling into ruin) since they were built 10 years ago, but the owners are still asking what they paid.

Even out here in rural Khampaeng Phet in our moo ban there is a small bungalow built a few years ago which is slowly being strangled by the undergrowth which gets cut down perhaps once a year. A bit further afield there are shop houses that have never been sold or lived in.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, kenk24 said:

Is there any way to get this thread back on track?

 

Do any of you know people effected by the changes?

I have a friend who is property rich and cash poor. He has a couple of properties for sale but nobody is buying.

[NCC1701A]

it has zero affect on me. and I don't know anyone who has been affected. 

 

but I am an retired American with a fare amount of money and my friends in Thailand are similar to me.  

 

I think a lot of people here on Thai visa over estimate the finical impact western Expats have on the real estate market.  

 

The Chinese are stepping in to grab up everything. And the Thais will keep over building which is good for me as it keeps rents low for decades to come.

 

I am sorry I am better off than some here TV and many get triggered reading about my posts about having money.

 

 

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, totally thaied up said:

I have enquired today about getting my wife Permanent Residency back in Australia.

 

I am looking ahead now to things because if things change too much in Thailand over the next so many years, I will need to change things up. If I had bucket loads of money, I would not care but I don't. Staying here has costs; health insurance is one of those costs you cannot ill afford not to have when you don't have a pile of backup money.

 

My wife and I would prefer to stay in Thailand but say if the current Police Orders get changed and the costs rise a great deal and add to this the fact that being a married man to a Thai does not give you much back (apart from the 400K Visa) as in the sense, no subsidized health care, you are pretty much on the back foot. If I was an American, well being here might be better off then in the States due to also having to pay for your health costs but the fact remaining is in Australia, you still have Medicare to look after you for the basic things and that is a lot better then nothing.

 

My biggest and only problem with living in Thailand is the healthcare/insurance costs. If it was not for health care, I would not have a worry in the world. If only the Government came up with a paid package (something affordable we could pay into for life) for those of us married and living in country with a family, things could improve somewhat.

 

So, yes, I am looking at future alternatives because I have too. Maybe not now, but maybe over the next 5-10 years and I need to start thinking now.

A very valid point about the med insurance... I think more and more will have problems in the future... 

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

I have a friend who is property rich and cash poor. He has a couple of properties for sale but nobody is buying.

Tough spot - I think for most sellers it is a long way down to reach true market value...

[RichardColeman]

10 hours ago, kenk24 said:

I have had similar experience looking at homes with land in cm area. There are no market factors. Nearly no buyers and prices are high though nobody is selling. 

I have a feeling that just around the corner will be a new law that all 'farang' have to occupy their properties for 10 months a year or something, and if there is no-one in occupation for 3 years, it reverts to the state to be used as state housing - which Thais would be very happy with. Eithe that or you must have a valid visa for retirment or marriage or work etc  to own a property.

[blackhorse]

Those effected that can't even scrape up 65k or 800k are not exactly real estate gurus. More like 4k fan room renters on Pattayas dark side or the outskirts of chiang mai

No money no honey and MOST CERTAINLY no lovely condo

[billd766]

12 hours ago, kenk24 said:

Tough spot - I think for most sellers it is a long way down to reach true market value...

 

It all depends on what the true market value is and if there are more buyers than sellers. I suspect that quite a few potential buyers may be fence sitting and waiting for the prices to drop lower.

 

If the visa extension problem is not solved one way or another I think a few more people will leave and then there will be more properties available and prices will drop further.

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed.

 

Let's try and keep this discussion to how people are affected by the changes to the income letters rather than a discussion about property

 

Thanks

[crazykopite]

15 hours ago, blackhorse said:

Those effected that can't even scrape up 65k or 800k are not exactly real estate gurus. More like 4k fan room renters on Pattayas dark side or the outskirts of chiang mai

No money no honey and MOST CERTAINLY no lovely condo

I don’t agree with your remark I am sure there are a few who prior to moving to Thailand owned real estate , sold up and with the proceeds purchased a property in the Kingdom . I believe that there should be a level playing field I don’t see why a farang married to a Thai only has to show 40,000 per month or 400,000 in the bank whilst a single farang or a farang married to another farang are more disadvantaged because they have to have a monthly pension of 65,000 baht or savings of 800,000 in the bank which offers rubbish returns even Thais would rather have money under the bed than put it all in the bank and that my friend has to tell you something.

[jessc]

My mom is American, retired in Chiang Mai, and in previous years she just did the income affidavit notarized by the embassy.

 

She renewed her visa in August of this year, and was not allowed to just do the income affidavit. Instead she showed a combination of social security retirement income and savings to meet the income requirements. Immigration accepted the computer print out of social security income (from the U.S. SSA website) combined with a Thai bank account statement as sufficient evidence of income. She still had to do the notarized affidavit from the embassy that she is who she says she is. But they did accept a combination of savings in a Thai bank account and monthly retirement income to meet the 800k yearly income requirement for the retirement visa. As I understand it, this is basically what she will have to do going forward as well. Luckily, her monthly retirement income is near 65k a month, so she only has to keep a bit in savings above the monthly amount. So, effected, but mostly in the more paperwork department (at least for now).

[blackhorse]

I don’t agree with your remark I am sure there are a few who prior to moving to Thailand owned real estate , sold up and with the proceeds purchased a property in the Kingdom . I believe that there should be a level playing field I don’t see why a farang married to a Thai only has to show 40,000 per month or 400,000 in the bank whilst a single farang or a farang married to another farang are more disadvantaged because they have to have a monthly pension of 65,000 baht or savings of 800,000 in the bank which offers rubbish returns even Thais would rather have money under the bed than put it all in the bank and that my friend has to tell you something.

Sounds like your talking about some peasants in isaan. In bangkok my ex and current GF's working in a professional capacity have their money in a bank

In a modern world all bills are payable via bank transfer. Seriously who lines up in a que to pay for stuff these days?

[billsmart]

I currently have a Type-OA Retirement visa and extend it each year based on the THB65K/month income requirement. I've lived in Thailand for about 15 years, and during that time have had Business visas, Marriage visas, and now a Retirement visa. In fact, I'm going to the US Embassy the first week in Dec to get my Income Affidavit notarized to renew my visa in mid-Dec. That, of course, will be the last time I'll be able to get that affidavit from the embassy.

What I'm mostly interested in right now is to find out what kind of documentation Thai Immigration will accept to satisfy proof of the monthly income requirement. I'm assuming that could be a copy of your Thai bank book showing monthly, international-transfer deposits which, taken together, satisfy the THB64K/month income. Even if this kind of documentation is acceptable, I have questions on just what they would be looking for. Anyway, I'll have a year to try to find that out. If anyone ever gets a hint of what they might accept for this requirement, please let me know or post it on Thaivisa. I'm sure many others besides me would appreciate that.

I'm married, so could always revert back to a Marriage visa, but I'd rather stay on my Retirement visa. The paperwork requirement is a lot less.

[chanwit]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Fairfield said:

Some off topic posts and replies have been removed.

 

Let's try and keep this discussion to how people are affected by the changes to the income letters rather than a discussion about property

 

Thanks

I welcome not having to travel to the American Consulate Services in Bangkok and paying $50 for the notarized income letter.

The extra treat is not having to waste a day at the Thailand Department of Consular Affairs procuring an official stamp to certify that the US director’s signature on the document is legitimate. Immigration offices in Bangkok require this.

My concern at this early date is that the immigration officer is going to be slowed down calculating income numbers from my bank account history. Even now the process of the officer opening the calculator app and calculating the certified income in Baht and comparing it to the required income seems to take an unusually long time.

I’m lucky, My next extension doesn’t occur until 8 months after the new rules are inacted. By my renew date the horror stories will be told and hopefully immigration will have streamlined the process.

 

[sletraveler]

17 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

it has zero affect on me. and I don't know anyone who has been affected. 

 

but I am an retired American with a fare amount of money and my friends in Thailand are similar to me.  

 

I think a lot of people here on Thai visa over estimate the finical impact western Expats have on the real estate market.  

 

The Chinese are stepping in to grab up everything. And the Thais will keep over building which is good for me as it keeps rents low for decades to come.

 

I am sorry I am better off than some here TV and many get triggered reading about my posts about having money.

 

 

And with your money, you still have nothing better to do?

[SFO2BKK]

I know someone who is affected. She has got a retirement extension to establish residency in Thailand for tax purposes, although she only spends about 6 weeks a year or so in Thailand. She told me she will not try to maintain it because she does not want to plonk 800,000 in an account here (I do not know if she actually could do so or not) and because she is not spending as much time here as she thought she would.

 

I may also choose to be affected by it, by which I mean, it may be the impetus for me to finally leave Thailand, something I have been thinking about for a while now as I do not see this as my place of retirement over the long term. I have the money and could easily stay if I wanted to bring it into a bank account in Thailand, but as of now, I do not wish to do so. I think I may be able to squeeze in one more renewal as my extension is up in July - so I could decide to get an income affidavit in December and extend in June. Haven't decided yet if I will do so or not. So, while I am not being forced out by this change, it is likely to be the thing that finally makes me actually leave instead of just thinking about it. 

[fiberman]

Up until this year I have used 2 pensions to show the 40,000 Baht per month requirement and used a letter from the UK Embassy to get my marriage extension. To get the 40,000 Baht I need an exchange rate of 43 Baht to the pound which at the current rate means I will be short this year. Not a problem I thought, open a foreign currency account and transfer 10,000 uk pounds and use this, not wanting to change a large sum into Thai Baht at the god awful exchange rate we have at the moment.

Off I go to my local KTB to open the account. I then find out that because I have a marriage extension rather than retirement extension the bank will only give me a joint account with my wife. Called immigration and they said no problem just put double the amount into the account, so I basically need 20,000 pounds!!

I might just as well go to a retirement extension which is easier anyway but this now means I would need 40,000 UK pounds in the account to get a retirement extension so that I could then change the account to one in my name. Does anyone else sometimes feel that the system is deliberately trying to make life difficult?

 

Before anyone suggests that I try a different bank my bank manager is a friend of ours and tried hard to get me an account in my name only but it can't be done.

[1FinickyOne]

Does anyone know if a personal tax statement, a tax return, which shows your income for the year would qualify as proof... what would be more proof than that?

[blackhorse]

I know someone who is affected. She has got a retirement extension to establish residency in Thailand for tax purposes, although she only spends about 6 weeks a year or so in Thailand. She told me she will not try to maintain it because she does not want to plonk 800,000 in an account here (I do not know if she actually could do so or not) and because she is not spending as much time here as she thought she would.
 
I may also choose to be affected by it, by which I mean, it may be the impetus for me to finally leave Thailand, something I have been thinking about for a while now as I do not see this as my place of retirement over the long term. I have the money and could easily stay if I wanted to bring it into a bank account in Thailand, but as of now, I do not wish to do so. I think I may be able to squeeze in one more renewal as my extension is up in July - so I could decide to get an income affidavit in December and extend in June. Haven't decided yet if I will do so or not. So, while I am not being forced out by this change, it is likely to be the thing that finally makes me actually leave instead of just thinking about it. 

True what you say. Many are unhappy and looking for a reason to leave whether they no longer feel loved or lack of money however there is also that nagging doubt that returning to 1st world wouldn't be a good move. They didn't like it before so what's changed?

The only viable alternative in the region is Vietnam but if that's so great they would already be there

[IAMHERE]

29 minutes ago, kenk24 said:

Does anyone know if a personal tax statement, a tax return, which shows your income for the year would qualify as proof... what would be more proof than that?

Pretty sure the immigration would want a copy, I'd hesitate giving them a copy of me 1040.

[LawrenceN]

I guess you could say it's affected me in that it saves me ฿1500 per year that I don't have to spend on that pointless letter. The system never made sense, too easy to abuse. It's about time both sides, the consulates and Immigration, wised up.

[steve73]

Not everyone get's their income letter 6 months ahead of when it's needed (although I'm sure everyone who knows about the ongoing changes will be rushing to do so in the next month or so), nor do they get their extension as early as 30 days before its due.

 

So there will probably be some unfortunate souls unaware of these changes, who will go to their embassy in mid-late Dec, only to be refused, and perhaps need to get their extension as early as before the end of this year, and (unless T/Imm. have changed their rules for the income method) they will be faced with no extension, perhaps needing to leave within 7 days, or to make a border hop to get a 30 day visa exempt entry. 

 

So we could start hearing about some of these problems as early as the next 7-8 weeks.

 

[wwest5829]

18 hours ago, blackhorse said:

Those effected that can't even scrape up 65k or 800k are not exactly real estate gurus. More like 4k fan room renters on Pattayas dark side or the outskirts of chiang mai

No money no honey and MOST CERTAINLY no lovely condo

Thanks for your opinion but... I am not scraping up the 65K a month it is my thought out sustainable retirement income allowing me a middle class retirement in Thailand that I could not afford in my own country. I do not appear to be alone. I have heard from many who cannot a similar lifestyle in Europe, Australia or North America. I choose to leave my retirement funds invested and I will not be bringing 800K to Thailand to sit in a bank here. As to the current Thai Immigration - Brit/American income letter, I will be waiting to see what happens as I am not needing to renew my Retorement Visa Extension until next July. TIT, who knows what changes will take place ....

[marcusarelus]

I stand corrected.  I estimated 3 people.  But there are more people living here from paycheck to paycheck that I would have ever imagined.  I don't buy the, "my millions of dollars are invested or I don't trust Thai banks" excuse because it's not rational.  If you don't put the 800 the bank it's because you can't.  Many more folks than i thought. 

[giddyup]

24 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

Thanks for your opinion but... I am not scraping up the 65K a month it is my thought out sustainable retirement income allowing me a middle class retirement in Thailand that I could not afford in my own country. I do not appear to be alone. I have heard from many who cannot a similar lifestyle in Europe, Australia or North America. I choose to leave my retirement funds invested and I will not be bringing 800K to Thailand to sit in a bank here. As to the current Thai Immigration - Brit/American income letter, I will be waiting to see what happens as I am not needing to renew my Retorement Visa Extension until next July. TIT, who knows what changes will take place ....

You can rest assured that the 65K income or 800K rules won't change, unless they decide to actually increase those amounts. Better be prepared to live somewhere else if you won't bend on the 800K. All comes down to how much you want to live in Thailand.

[Mac98]

Right on the border of minimum. My SS is around 68,000 a month. Fine when using letter. But that includes Medicare payment, a legitimate expense. But actual funds that hit Thai bank would be around 63,000 after Medicare and fees. I keep an address with phone and bank account in States to keep Medicare active and go home once a year for physical and visit. With funds going to Thai bank SS would cancel my Medicare coverage, but still deduct funds. Also making payments on credit cards out of Thai bank would get them canceled as you have to be a resident of USA. So I guess I'll be a resident of USA and visit Thailand on tourist visas. Now what to do about my lease?

   I also know a wheelchair bound retiree in CM who won't qualify now and gets round the clock care for a month here at the cost of a day or two in the States.