Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[pookiki]

I am an expat from the US and I have been living in Thailand for 13+ years - six of which have been on a retirement visa with extensions.

 

I am appalled by the actions of the US Embassy (and others) to discontinue the issuance of income verification affidavits with no prior discussions with their constituents or evidence that the embassy attempted to negotiate with the Thai government to find workable and sensible solutions on this issue.

 

I, for one, believe that the expat community must organize and send delegations to their respective embassies and the Thai Ministry of Foreign affairs so that realistic solutions can be found to show proof of 65,000 baht income per month along with the continued issuance of an affidavit from our respective embassies.

 

I will be at at a meeting at the FCCT this evening beginning at 7:00 PM.  If you are an expat that shares my views on this matter and are interested in assuring that our respective embassies and Thai government find workable solutions to our ability to extend our retirement visa, please meet me at the FCCT meeting or PM me on ways in which we can organize the expat community to ensure that are voices are heard.  Thank you.

[ubonjoe]

A post with some inflammatory unneeded comments has been removed.

 

Edit: And now a reply to it and another post attempting to deflect the topic.

Edited November 8, 2018 by ubonjoe

[watgate]

I sent a message to you and basically it said I am currently residing in Chiang Mai or else I would be onboard with you in Bangkok. I concur that what was done by the US Embassy and Consulate was despicable. They basically took the easy way out and left the US Expat community out to dry. There was no accountability of these firmly entrenched government bureaucrats and they took the easy way out. There are many serious issues and potentially devastating effects to many expats who are currently residing in Thailand. These issues must be addressed by the US Embassy and Consulate and not swept under the rug for folks who have to navigate these serious concerns  themselves with no clear guidance or input into this matter by the US Embassy and Consulate.

[ubonjoe]

I am not sure that the US Embassy can do much more than they have already done or what they are still trying to do in the background now. You can be sure they have not washed their hands of the problem.

The Thai MInistry of Foreign Affairs has nothing to do with extension of stay (they are not visas) applications. Immigration sets the requirements for extensions of stay applications.

You seem to of forgotten or are not aware that it is not only those on extension of stay based upon retirement that are affected by the change. The are many that apply for extension based upon marriage to a Thai or for being the parent of a Thai who have been using a income affidavit to apply for their extensions.

[pookiki]

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I am not sure that the US Embassy can do much more than they have already done or what they are still trying to do in the background now. You can be sure they have not washed their hands of the problem.

The Thai MInistry of Foreign Affairs has nothing to do with extension of stay (they are not visas) applications. Immigration sets the requirements for extensions of stay applications.

You seem to of forgotten or are not aware that it is not only those on extension of stay based upon retirement that are affected by the change. The are many that apply for extension based upon marriage to a Thai or for being the parent of a Thai who have been using a income affidavit to apply for their extensions.

Ubon Joe, having been a follower of TVF for many years, I have the utmost respect for you and the advice you provide to the expat community in Thailand. It was not my intent to 'overlook' anyone impacted by the cessation of the issuance of affidavits.  Since we are not privy to what the embassies involved in this issue may or may not be doing, we can only speculate.  Why can't they do outreach meetings on this issue and ask the expat community for input on how to resolve what appears to me to be a deadlock in negotiations?  I have my own ideas about how to resolve this matter but without sufficient interest by my own embassy, it is very difficult.

[Lungstib]

I dont think I have previously ever written in defence of the British Embassy but I imagine they were none too happy about being involved in what is, after all, a Thai immigration situation. Surely it is a simple matter for Thai Immigration to ask long term stayers for some sort of monthly expenditure statement from a local bank. I have no other home than the one I stay at here in Thailand, I have been here 30 years, and yet during that time immigration has just ignored the fact that I am permanently here and call me a temporary visitor. Only when they readjust, stop filling our passport (property of the UK Govt) with their yearly stamps and various assorted bits of paper which is not the purpose of a passport, and start treating us as people who do actually stay here will things improve. Lets face it, the problem lies with immigration wanting to know how much you get and where it comes from, something that your own Embassy probably doesn't know because you gave up informing them years ago.

[Peterw42]

What is FCCT ?

I agree that some group representation to the correct authority could be productive but in this case the correct authority would be Thai immigration, not Embassies or MFA.

[pookiki]

9 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

What is FCCT ?

I agree that some group representation to the correct authority could be productive but in this case the correct authority would be Thai immigration, not Embassies or MFA.

FCCT = Foreign Correspondence Club of Thailand

[Orton Rd]

All you have to organise is getting the correct amount of money in your bank account, or coming into it. The only people this change affects are the liars and fraudsters, as it was meant to

[cleverman]

22 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

All you have to organise is getting the correct amount of money in your bank account, or coming into it. The only people this change affects are the liars and fraudsters, as it was meant to

Complete and utter rubbish. I've relied on military pension embassy letter. Call me a liar ,fraudster to my face instead of hiding behind your keyboard. 

[calbts2]

2 hours ago, cleverman said:

Complete and utter rubbish. I've relied on military pension embassy letter. Call me a liar ,fraudster to my face instead of hiding behind your keyboard. 

I concur. I was using the letter when I was on a marraige extention and now was using for my retirement ext.. I never once lied on what I stated on the affidavit and had backup proof if asked. This decision to stop affifavits affects me negatively since now I got to bring over 800000 and keep it in an account sometime next year when I would rather keep that money in my home country.  I would guess there are many more honest expats now in my same situation. Kinda like throwin out the baby with the bathwater.

[john smith]

A fraud trickster or liar I am not. Money in excess of 65000 is transferred monthly from the UK to my Thai bank.

I was informed by immigration at Hua Hin main office three days ago that 65000 is not acceptable unless accompanied by an Embassy letter and only 800000 will be accepted with the usual three month proviso. Obviously this could change

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, pookiki said:

I am appalled by the actions of the US Embassy (and others) to discontinue the issuance of income verification affidavits with no prior discussions with their constituents or evidence that the embassy attempted to negotiate with the Thai government to find workable and sensible solutions on this issue.

We really don't know what happened - allegedly back in May of this year - and THAT is what we should be angry about vis-a-vis our embassies. 

 

But, in order to achieve your objective, I would not begin with the premise that our embassies threw us under the bus - as that action may have been driven by Thai-Immigration. 

 

What we should seek from our embassies first, is "<deleted> happened" - the whole story.  I suspect between May and the BE's announcement, there was some ongoing dialogue of some sort.  I want to know what that was - in detail.  After knowing that story, we can then move forward, knowing what attempted negotiation-points/tactics may have already been tried and failed. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I am not sure that the US Embassy can do much more than they have already done or what they are still trying to do in the background now.

 

Joe, I know ThaiVisa isn't exactly a news media outlet. But still, in the past, it seems to me there have been at least a few times when TVF has in some form reached out to Immigration on some issue and managed to get a statement from them clarifying some issue at the time (I think the issue of whether or not people needed to carry their original passports was one episode of that...).

 

In the wake of the announcements by the US, UK and Australia embassies regarding the cessation of income letters as a result of demands by Immigration, couldn't the current situation be a good reason for TVF to reach out to Immigration again and seek some official clarification of what will become of the monthly income method for extensions, in the absence of embassy income letters?  And what, if any, alternate monthly income documentation method(s) will be allowed from now on?

 

Has that even been considered or tried in the weeks now that all this ridiculous uncertainty and speculation has been going on?

 

 

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Has that even been considered or tried in the weeks now that all this ridiculous uncertainty and speculation has been going on?

I have been informed by management that they are trying to arrange a meeting.

[Rama]

Been here for 14 years. I have no problem with amounts of money for retirement visa. I am willing to do a wire transfer from my American bank to my BKK bank account every month of amounts greater than that required instead of using the ATM as I do now. I spend well more here than the requirement of 65k every month. I do not want to put 800k in a thai bank however, too many horror stories over the years. As long as the only option is 800k - I year visa at the airport in Vietnam. I am afraid, however, that nothing will be done until the Thai businesses realize how much money they are losing and they complain to immigration and the politicians.  

[Pattaya46]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

// and seek some official clarification of what will become of the monthly income method for extensions, in the absence of embassy income letters?  And what, if any, alternate monthly income documentation method(s) will be allowed from now on?

I really doubt they could reply. If they had some new regulations ready, they would have publish them already. At best they may be thinking/working on a change to come (and you will have to wait that they publish new rules), at worst they may just be asking themselves if they should make anything about the mess provoked by these 3 embassies...

[pookiki]

15 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I have been informed by management that they are trying to arrange a meeting.

Ubonjoe, what is needed before we seek clarification from Thai immigration is a renewed discussion by the three embassies that issued the notices to revoke income verification affidavits with Thai immigration only after the embassies conduct outreach meetings and input from their affected constituents.

Edited November 8, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[sotsira]

I would also like to add, in the event that the only method will 

become to have 800k Baht in a Thai bank account, would it be 

acceptable to use a Foreign currency a/c with a Thai bank?

 

Would Thai immigration then accept the equivalent 800k THB

in that foreign currency?

At least then, you could keep your funds in your own currency and withdraw it with the flexibility as of when required. 

[noise]

Before U.S. citizens get all excited and start trying to organize for what every reason, I recommend they go to the U.S. Consulate's web site and read the Fact Sheet and FAQs on this subject.  You will find they did not just wake up one morning and decide to stop notarizing those specific documents and it was coordinated with Thai Immigration. 

 

It is more than likely the other embassies did the same thing.

Edited November 8, 2018 by noise

[Jingthing]

Why can't the U.S. embassy look at a letter from SOCIAL SECURITY stating monthly income (which would take like TWO SECONDS) and perhaps also some evidence of transfer of same into either a U.S. or Thai bank account (oh my, another TWO SECONDS) and at LEAST provide income letters based on that? I get when you get into complex and even dodgy income claims (like variable dividends) that it really can be too complex to claim to verify. But I still do not understand and do not accept that the U.S. government (and other governments that pay pensions) can't verify pensions from their own governments!

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, sotsira said:

I would also like to add, in the event that the only method will 

become to have 800k Baht in a Thai bank account, would it be 

acceptable to use a Foreign currency a/c with a Thai bank?

 

Would Thai immigration then accept the equivalent 800k THB

in that foreign currency?

At least then, you could keep your funds in your own currency and withdraw it with the flexibility as of when required. 

It has been up till now so I would assume that will continue to be OK. 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

All you have to organise is getting the correct amount of money in your bank account, or coming into it. The only people this change affects are the liars and fraudsters, as it was meant to

You are assuming that is a simple task.

 

AFAIK most Immigration offices are not happy to accept an application without a letter especially if you are using the income method.

 

Equally it will be quite difficult for many people to lock up 800,000 baht for 3 or 4 months of the year. 400,000 is a bit easier but may not be possible for some even though their income is perfectly acceptable.

 

One solution could be that Immigration lay down exactly how this can be achieved and ENFORCE that rule at every Immigration office with exception or deviation from that rule.

 

If, how and when this could be done is down to the Immigration Department.

[pookiki]

36 minutes ago, noise said:

Before U.S. citizens get all excited and start trying to organize for what every reason, I recommend they go to the U.S. Consulate's web site and read the Fact Sheet and FAQs on this subject.  You will find they did not just wake up one morning and decide to stop notarizing those specific documents and it was coordinated with Thai Immigration. 

 

It is more than likely the other embassies did the same thing.

However, it is clear that the US Embassy did nothing to conduct outreach meetings with its constituents to discuss this issue and seek input and advice from its affected constituents.  What happened is that the US expat community woke up one morning to learn of the decision of the US Embassy.  Is this the way an organization that advocates for its citizens is supposed to make decisions? 

Edited November 8, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, pookiki said:

owever, it is clear that the US Embassy did nothing to conduct outreach meeting with its constituents to discuss this issue and seek input and advice from its affected constituents.  What happened is that the US expat community woke up one morning to learn of the decision of the US Embassy.  Is this the way an organization that advocates for its citizens is supposed to make decisions? 

Agree completely- the big meeting between Thai Imm and the Embassies was in May of this year- there was plenty of time to hold a meeting to discus the issue and solicit opinions- yet nothing was done to involve the stakeholders- I really suspect the 3 Embassies put their heads together and got rid of the letter because it is easier for them  to wash their hands of having to try and negotiate a solution.

The solution was simple- inform the Thai Imm that the Embassy in some cases does ask for  'proof' -BE and in other cases US/AUS has  their citizens swear under penalty of perjury the info is true emphasizing that Thai Imm always has the ability to ask for added documentation and to report any offenders back to the Embassy.  The Embassy then continues the letters and let's Thai Imm either accept them or not or  convene a long term study group in conjunction with Thai imm to seek a suitable compromise.

 

Instead the Embassies  said a loud NO  forcing  the current situation. Not very diplomatic and in my opinion offensive to Thai Imm and us.

[wgdanson]

4 hours ago, Orton Rd said:

All you have to organise is getting the correct amount of money in your bank account, or coming into it. The only people this change affects are the liars and fraudsters, as it was meant to

Hang on a mo! Some honest guys cannot put 800k in their bank. And your words 'or coming into it' are incorrect, you cannot extend on a mnothly income declaration. It is either 800k in the bank NOW, or average of Bht 88,888 per month for nine months. Then Robert's your father's brother.

Edited November 8, 2018 by wgdanson

[watcharacters]

5 hours ago, pookiki said:

Why can't they do outreach meetings on this issue and ask the expat community for input on how to resolve what appears to me to be a deadlock in negotiations?  

 

I'm as disappointed by the cessation of the income affidavit as the next guy/gal.

 

I don't use it but it was a nice "ace in the hole" to have available.

 

While I understand your wish to have an outreach  meeting to discuss this I wonder about the cost for doing that.   The Embassy staff don't move around on the cheap.

 

Wouldn't  letters and phone calls to the Embassy and one's  Congress people accomplish the same thing?

 

 

[Suradit69]

5 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

What is FCCT ?

I agree that some group representation to the correct authority could be productive but in this case the correct authority would be Thai immigration, not Embassies or MFA.

With a word of caution that it could easily be interpreted as recruiting foreigners to form a protest group in conflict with the Thai government.

 

It's not so much your intent or peaceful purpose, but the optics. You could easily make the situation worse for everyone.

 

Although it seems the problem arose ages ago, it has been a fairly brief time period. The fact that the Thai government is taking its time to  react and set guidelines for the future doesn't mean nothing is being done. They've even allowed, in most cases, flexibility regarding when letters will still be accepted ... which suggests they are buying time to reach a solution.

 

Despite their apparent indifference, the embassies aren't totally clueless. If they didn't know it before, by now they know the impact this may have on their citizens in Thailand. 

 

I would rather allow some time for clarification and resolution. Send emails or phone your embassy if it makes you feel better, but be careful about what actions you take with regard to any Thai government entity and be especially careful about any claims you make regarding who you think you represent.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Suradit69

[pookiki]

4 minutes ago, watcharacters said:

 

I'm as disappointed by the cessation of the income affidavit as the next guy/gal.

 

I don't use it but it was a nice "ace in the hole" to have available.

 

While I understand your wish to have an outreach  meeting to discuss this I wonder about the cost for doing that.   The Embassy staff don't move around on the cheap.

 

Wouldn't  letters and phone calls to the Embassy and one's  Congress people accomplish the same thing?

 

 

Outreach meetings show a true responsibility to the expat community in Thailand on an issue as important as this.  It also provides the expat community with the opportunity to organize and proffer a consensus viewpoint on how to address and resolve this issue.  Without organization among ourselves, there is no opportunity to consider and present a cogent and realistic solution. We truly need to organize and thrash this issue out among ourselves - then outreach meetings will have an impact. 

[pookiki]

7 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

With a word of caution that it could easily be interpreted as recruiting foreigners to form a protest group in conflict with the Thai government.

 

It's not so much your intent or peaceful purpose, but the optics. You could easily make the situation worse for everyone.

 

Although it seems the problem arose ages ago, it has been a fairly brief time period. The fact that the Thai government is taking its time to  react and set guidelines for the future doesn't mean nothing is being done. They've even allowed, in most cases, flexibility regarding when letters will still be accepted ... which suggesting they are buying time for reach a resolution.

 

Despite their apparent indifference, the embassies aren't totally clueless. If they didn't know it before, by now they know the impact this may have on their citizens in Thailand. 

 

I would rather allow some time for clarification and resolution. Send emails or phone your embassy if it makes you feel better, but be careful about what actions you take and especially careful about any claims you make regarding who you think you represent.

 

 

In my view, the 'pressure point' should be on our embassy and only by-pass them if ignored.  I seriously doubt that raising of our issues with Thai immigration would be viewed as seditious or rebellious - but I do believe it should be a last resort if the embassy ignores our concerns.

Edited November 8, 2018 by pookiki
grammar