UK Pensions (2018)

[sniggie]

This is a matter that concerns me as a UK citizen so I apologise if this post appears a little long. I spend most of my time in Thailand and have done so since shortly after my retirement at the end of 2010.  I still maintain a property in the UK as my home address, all my pensions are paid into the same bank account that I have used for decades and all other financial matters (pensions, credit cards, share porfolios, driving licence etc.) are at that address. Indeed also is my Inland Revenue account(?) and I pay in excess of 5k GBP in income tax every year. I did investigate becoming an expat to see if my tax bill would reduce but I have too many connections with the 'old country' to be able to be classified as an expat for tax purposes. I spend time back in the UK each year but probably all in about 3 months. not long enough for it to be my permanent residence.  

 

Now, as I understand it, my state pension should be frozen. However all correspondence goes to my UK address and the pension is paid into a UK bank. This is exactly how it was set up in 2010. Nobody has ever asked me where I ordinarily live and I have never volunteered the information. Other posters are correct. it would not be difficult for the UK authorities to drill down and link my movements through border controls but I wonder if they have the desire to do so. As I understood it when I looked into the matter some years ago I would still be entitled to my full pension for the time that I was resident in the UK so, with my normal three visits a year, that would mean six adjustments in a year. Also, as the state pension is incorporated in the PAYE code that would mean several tax code changes. Surely that's one for the 'too difficult' file.

 

Now I like to think I'm basically an honest person. If I am challenged on this matter I will not lie. I will just have (as our transatlantic cousins would say) to suck it up. I am also fully aware that an apparently unjust law is still the law. However I will wait to be 'caught' before I comply. It does seem unreasonable to me that, despite paying tax and national insurance all one's working life, the place you decide to retire to is arbitrarily selected for a frozen pension. I understand the twisted logic as given for this, that it is to cover cost of living inflation in the UK. So why is Thailand one of the countries affected and, say, the Philippines is not. I don't at present resent paying Income Tax, I never have, but I might start to if my state pension is adversely affected by this seemingly iniquitous ruling.   

[evadgib]

Shouldn't this be in the pinned topic at the top of the page?

[alzack]

Sorry its more complicated when you come back and for  the Pension guys, you need to show proof of  residency proof of where you live, proof you are resident again in UK otherwise they wont increase your pension if you suddenly go back to the land of smiles, if they did increases it,,and you left again with in  2 years, it would revert to the old amount They are not stupid  all the best

[Rimmer]

A personal attack has been removed also a reply

[solo46]

3 minutes ago, sniggie said:

This is a matter that concerns me as a UK citizen so I apologise if this post appears a little long. I spend most of my time in Thailand and have done so since shortly after my retirement at the end of 2010.  I still maintain a property in the UK as my home address, all my pensions are paid into the same bank account that I have used for decades and all other financial matters (pensions, credit cards, share porfolios, driving licence etc.) are at that address. Indeed also is my Inland Revenue account(?) and I pay in excess of 5k GBP in income tax every year. I did investigate becoming an expat to see if my tax bill would reduce but I have too many connections with the 'old country' to be able to be classified as an expat for tax purposes. I spend time back in the UK each year but probably all in about 3 months. not long enough for it to be my permanent residence.  

 

Now, as I understand it, my state pension should be frozen. However all correspondence goes to my UK address and the pension is paid into a UK bank. This is exactly how it was set up in 2010. Nobody has ever asked me where I ordinarily live and I have never volunteered the information. Other posters are correct. it would not be difficult for the UK authorities to drill down and link my movements through border controls but I wonder if they have the desire to do so. As I understood it when I looked into the matter some years ago I would still be entitled to my full pension for the time that I was resident in the UK so, with my normal three visits a year, that would mean six adjustments in a year. Also, as the state pension is incorporated in the PAYE code that would mean several tax code changes. Surely that's one for the 'too difficult' file.

 

Now I like to think I'm basically an honest person. If I am challenged on this matter I will not lie. I will just have (as our transatlantic cousins would say) to suck it up. I am also fully aware that an apparently unjust law is still the law. However I will wait to be 'caught' before I comply. It does seem unreasonable to me that, despite paying tax and national insurance all one's working life, the place you decide to retire to is arbitrarily selected for a frozen pension. I understand the twisted logic as given for this, that it is to cover cost of living inflation in the UK. So why is Thailand one of the countries affected and, say, the Philippines is not. I don't at present resent paying Income Tax, I never have, but I might start to if my state pension is adversely affected by this seemingly iniquitous ruling.   

Up to you,everybody is in the same boat,....can guess the ones that are not,dire warnings pour forth,there is comfort to be had in a frozen land,for the few      For an estimated 55 thousand UK ex pats here in Thailand with a figure of only 5 thousand pensioners declared,tells a story    anyway they DWP cannot do a damned thing..its says so DWP rules

[cleopatra2]

21 minutes ago, NightSky said:

I think what you mean is expats can return to the UK for short stays without being a resident. This is true and the amount of time one may visit in one tax year without being a resident depends on the individuals circumstances. The tests will determine this for you. 

 

I’m not sure what correction you made to my post though, I was talking about Uk residency tests to determine status nothing more.

 

 

No I am not.

 

The Pension Act is clear , it uses the term ' oversees resident '. It does not state Uk resident.

Oversees resident means somebody not ordinarily resident .The terminology and construction is important, Oversees Resident is the definition with ordinarily  resident as description 

 

The SRT came into force through the Finance Act which limited its scope to Taxation ( see schedule 45)

[Pilotman]

33 minutes ago, JASON THAI said:

So I am more confused now, if you are out of the UK more than 180 days (6 months) you lose your UK status & become a NON UK Resident from my understanding, but what rate would you get your Pension paid at the rate when you became a NON UK Resident or the rate of the current State pension for the year you make the claim without any further yearly increase ? 

 

Thanks

 

No, because as the website makes clear you can qualify and remain resident based upon 'ties', which are listed in the information.  For example, having a home in the UK and not having a home in any other country. 

[transam]

If you are out of the UK more than 90 days you must tell pensions...If that country has not got a reciprocal agreement with the UK they "may" adjust your pension payment..

[Rimmer]

More bickering posts removed, that is enough!!

More flames and attacks will earn a suspension be warned

[NightSky]

1 hour ago, cleopatra2 said:

No I am not.

 

The Pension Act is clear , it uses the term ' oversees resident '. It does not state Uk resident.

Oversees resident means somebody not ordinarily resident .The terminology and construction is important, Oversees Resident is the definition with ordinarily  resident as description 

 

The SRT came into force through the Finance Act which limited its scope to Taxation ( see schedule 45)

I’ll take your word for it, ???? I’m not at retirement age yet I hope I reach it since it will be 70 by the time I get there. My post was refering to determine residency status it wasn’t about the pensions act.

[wgdanson]

1 hour ago, alzack said:

my pension increased by £300 per month.

State Pension ?????

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, Pilotman said:

1 hour ago, Moonlover said:

All of these rules apply to taxation, not to state pensions.

 

1 hour ago, Pilotman said:

Its the same.  There are no separate definitions of residency but these. 

Wrong. That is not correct. The rules, or tests, as HMRC  call them,  that you are quoting are those used by that body to determine whether one is liable to taxation on earnings from overseas. I've been through them so many times during my career, I could almost quote them verbatim.

 

As far as state pensions are concerned, the rules are much simpler. Basically if you choose to live abroad and you choose the 'wrong' country, you will not be entitled annual increments. It's as simple as that.

 

There is one caveat. If you spend some time back in the UK, you will be entitled to the full current rate for the duration of that stay.

[NightSky]

3 hours ago, Moonlover said:

 

Wrong. That is not correct. The rules, or tests, as HMRC  call them,  that you are quoting are those used by that body to determine whether one is liable to taxation on earnings from overseas. I've been through them so many times during my career, I could almost quote them verbatim.

 

As far as state pensions are concerned, the rules are much simpler. Basically if you choose to live abroad and you choose the 'wrong' country, you will not be entitled annual increments. It's as simple as that.

 

There is one caveat. If you spend some time back in the UK, you will be entitled to the full current rate for the duration of that stay.

Interesting perspective.

 

If what you say is correct and the UK statuary resident tests are not used to determine residency for purpose of pension payout, then what does determine residency in this instance then. 

 

By by the way those ‘tests’ came into force in 2014 and were only clarified in recent years so your career can’t have been that long then? ????

 

 

[Moonlover]

11 minutes ago, NightSky said:

Interesting perspective.

 

If what you say is correct and the UK statuary resident tests are not used to determine residency for purpose of pension payout, then what does determine residency in this instance then. 

 

By by the way those ‘tests’ came into force in 2014 and were only clarified in recent years so your career can’t have been that long then? ????

 

 

The answer to the first query is very simple. 'Where do you live?' That's the criteria that DWP apply. I don't understand why folk have such difficulty with that very simple question.

 

OK, I appreciate that some folks are somewhat migratory, but as I mentioned before, DWP does have provision for that.

 

And as far as the 'tests' go, they are, in essence the same criteria, rebranded, that have applied to expat workers for many years. Including my 15 years in the middle east from '89 through to 2005. Just a short stretch! ????

[DaRoadrunner]

Confusing.

 

We are not overseas residents here as we stay on temporary Non Immigrant Visas. Though I bet the DWP distorts the rules to their advantage.

 

So when one reaches pensionable age, what forms do they send you and what checks do they make?

 

In this age of computers, what records can they find on us?

 

Do they check your passport / travel records through airports?

 

Is it sufficient to have a UK residential address and a UK bank account regardless of whether you are in country or not?

 

The website makes clear you can qualify and remain resident based upon 'ties', which are listed in the information. 

 

Clearly some of us have been penalised and some got away with it as they declared they had a uk residence.

 

 

[cleopatra2]

20 minutes ago, DaRoadrunner said:

Confusing.

 

We are not overseas residents here as we stay on temporary Non Immigrant Visas. Though I bet the DWP distorts the rules to their advantage.

 

So when one reaches pensionable age, what forms do they send you and what checks do they make?

 

In this age of computers, what records can they find on us?

 

Do they check your passport / travel records through airports?

 

Is it sufficient to have a UK residential address and a UK bank account regardless of whether you are in country or not?

 

The website makes clear you can qualify and remain resident based upon 'ties', which are listed in the information. 

 

Clearly some of us have been penalised and some got away with it as they declared they had a uk residence.

 

 

Ordinarily Resident is when a person is in the UK voluntarily and for a settled purpose as part of their regular order of their life.

 

For the purpose Of the Pension Act, a persons oversees immigration status is irrelevant.

Section 20(2) of the act states to be classed as 'Oversees resident'  you must not be ordinarily resident in GB or other territory specified.

Thus it is a persons GB status which is the determining factor.

[solo46]

10 minutes ago, DaRoadrunner said:

Confusing.

 

We are not overseas residents here as we stay on temporary Non Immigrant Visas. Though I bet the DWP distorts the rules to their advantage.

 

So when one reaches pensionable age, what forms do they send you and what checks do they make?

 

In this age of computers, what records can they find on us?

 

Do they check your passport / travel records through airports?

 

Is it sufficient to have a UK residential address and a UK bank account regardless of whether you are in country or not?

 

The website makes clear you can qualify and remain resident based upon 'ties', which are listed in the information. 

 

Clearly some of us have been penalised and some got away with it as they declared they had a uk residence.

 

 

1 Yes ,you are right on number one,no they do not distort the rules,they are clear

2 you send bank details etc.  they do a days pension shot into your bank for you to confirm its reached the right goal

 3 only what you tell them

 4  For OAP no   but any other I should imagine ..maybe

  5 Yes,better to have pension paid into UK bank,then do transfers

  6 generally ties are for tax purposes, there are two issues here, do not confuse with pension

 7 nobody has ever been penalised on OAP level,nobody,says so in DWP rules too. Can be EU address if so wish        keep UK address   you will regret in years to come if you do any other,can also renew UK driving licence  etc.

[DaRoadrunner]

4 minutes ago, solo46 said:

nobody has ever been penalised on OAP level,nobody,says so in DWP rules too.

See earlier posts by others here who say they were penalised.

 

[solo46]

1 minute ago, DaRoadrunner said:

See earlier posts by others here who say they were penalised.

 

Yes seen them,talking out of their arse.  Nothing to do with Old Age Pension,but as they have been frozen for absolute years and years,they get extremely jealous attempt to put frighteners on,imagine the ones unfrozen for years and years,the endless joy there

[DaRoadrunner]

I suspect this is the same story as with a lot of Gov’t forms, knowing how to fill out the form in order to obtain the desired result.

[Pilotman]

7 hours ago, transam said:

If you are out of the UK more than 90 days you must tell pensions...If that country has not got a reciprocal agreement with the UK they "may" adjust your pension payment..

I can find no such requirement in the guidance document published online. Do you have a link to share that I have missed?  

[DaRoadrunner]

6 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

If you are out of the UK more than 90 days you must tell pensions...If that country has not got a reciprocal agreement with the UK they "may" adjust your pension payment..

How are they going to know?

 

[Pilotman]

9 minutes ago, DaRoadrunner said:

How are they going to know?

 

Something has gone wrong here, I didn't write that, someone else did. I made the post above it 12 minutes ago.  The system has screwed up. 

[Scott]

An inflammatory post was reported and removed.

 

[Jip99]

18 hours ago, transam said:

If you are out of the UK more than 90 days you must tell pensions...If that country has not got a reciprocal agreement with the UK they "may" adjust your pension payment..

 

 

I am not sure that is correct  -  not saying it isn't, it is just that I have never seen specific reference to state pension...

 

 

The 3 month rule applies to certain benefits but I don't see State Pension mentioned.

 

 

https://www.independentage.org/information/money/benefits/benefits-abroad

[bert bloggs]

Just reading this , if you renew your passport at the British Embassy ,do they inform the pension service ?

[transam]

3 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

Just reading this , if you renew your passport at the British Embassy ,do they inform the pension service ?

I did wonder why they want a copy of EVERY page in your PP, which will show all Thai visa long term extensions and travel. This could be the 100% proof one is claiming their pension in a country a state pension is locked but getting benefits as they "live" in the UK...

[cleopatra2]

53 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I am not sure that is correct  -  not saying it isn't, it is just that I have never seen specific reference to state pension...

 

 

The 3 month rule applies to certain benefits but I don't see State Pension mentioned.

 

 

https://www.independentage.org/information/money/benefits/benefits-abroad

For means tested benefits , being outside the UK for up to 13 weeks was regarded as temporary absence . Thus not affecting the claim of such benefits.

Where this impacts on pensions is with reference to Pension Credit, a means tested benefit.

 

In 2016 a SI was laid reducing the period from 13 to 4 weeks

[transam]

54 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I am not sure that is correct  -  not saying it isn't, it is just that I have never seen specific reference to state pension...

 

 

The 3 month rule applies to certain benefits but I don't see State Pension mentioned.

 

 

https://www.independentage.org/information/money/benefits/benefits-abroad

That link does give a list of "benefit" offices you must contact, the state pension is in the list..I cannot find the 90 day thing either..

[DaRoadrunner]

On 4/13/2019 at 1:08 PM, sniggie said:

Now, as I understand it, my state pension should be frozen. However all correspondence goes to my UK address and the pension is paid into a UK bank. This is exactly how it was set up in 2010. Nobody has ever asked me where I ordinarily live and I have never volunteered the information. Other posters are correct. it would not be difficult for the UK authorities to drill down and link my movements through border controls but I wonder if they have the desire to do so. As I understood it when I looked into the matter some years ago I would still be entitled to my full pension for the time that I was resident in the UK so, with my normal three visits a year, that would mean six adjustments in a year. Also, as the state pension is incorporated in the PAYE code that would mean several tax code changes. Surely that's one for the 'too difficult' file.

 

Now I like to think I'm basically an honest person. If I am challenged on this matter I will not lie. I will just have (as our transatlantic cousins would say) to suck it up. I am also fully aware that an apparently unjust law is still the law. However I will wait to be 'caught' before I comply. It does seem unreasonable to me that, despite paying tax and national insurance all one's working life, the place you decide to retire to is arbitrarily selected for a frozen pension. I understand the twisted logic as given for this, that it is to cover cost of living inflation in the UK. So why is Thailand one of the countries affected and, say, the Philippines is not. I don't at present resent paying Income Tax, I never have, but I might start to if my state pension is adversely affected by this seemingly iniquitous ruling.   

Hi Sniggie..... Could you go into more detail on how you originally applied.

 

Thanks. Roadrunner.