Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[anon676545345]

4 minutes ago, sawadee1947 said:

That is completely nonsense. There is already a contract. Easy to sign. 

Also there is a law for a full term 5 years job for May. So a new PM not possible. 

And if such polit-clowns as you mentioned would represent UK I have my doubts. 

The real drama is that from the beginning the govt lied to the people and were not willing to show the consequences of any kind of Brexit. 

So many Brits believed in a land of milk and honey. So do you. 

That you and millions of your kind risk the future of the young ones you never cared of. 

 

 

Ah yes those nasty Brexiters robbing the youth of their chance to be unemployed

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

[rixalex]

Your points are well taken. However, as I stated previously, this was never going to be a quick easy exit, and the complexity of it, combined with the misfires by May, the biases in Parliament, and the intervening clarity of the mistake (IMO) means that sometimes older decisions not yet enacted need to be revisited and overturned, and isn't it fair to ask the electorate again? Where is the harm in that. To not do so would be to deny them the benefit of learning from the past two years, and views may have changed. If that 17 million plus voters still feel the same way, let's confirm that, rather than guess at it.

The harm is that from that point onward it will be known that referendum results need not be respected or enacted.

Whichever side loses this next referendum you speak of, why would they or should they accept it? History will show that they need not.

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[keemapoot]

1 minute ago, rixalex said:

 

 

The harm is that from that point onward it will be known that referendum results need not be respected or enacted.

Whichever side loses this next referendum you speak of, why would they or should they accept it? History will show that they need not.

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I don't think so. I think it rather shows that referendum results which cannot reasonably be expected to be enacted within a reasonable period of time may be subject to revisiting. 

 

So, in future, let's intelligently find another way to effect massive changes that take many years, and fully expect that knowledge, attitudes and circumstances may change the perspective if referendum items are too long to implement.

[Bannoi]

The bookies are giving odds on a 2nd referendum.

[Thingamabob]

9 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

What a ClusterF**k.

 

The UK is divided. Political parties are divided. The countries that make up the UK are divided. Parliament is divided. Business is divided. Civil Society is divided. Labour unions are divided. Academia is divided.

 

Yet, when the UK is divided in each and every sector, some say that that you MUST implement the most divisive public policy decision in 50+ years and/or go back and renegotiate with the EU. BTW, just why would the EU decide to re-negotiate? Why does anyone think the EU actually would give better terms? I wouldn't and can't think of any reason to think they would.

 

Never in my wildest thoughts could I have imagined a country would screw itself over so badly.

 

When a country is this divided, the only logical course of action is to keep the status quo and scrap the whole thing; perhaps, try again in 10 or 20 years. Sorry to the Brexit supporters, but your country is waaaaaay too divided to do this.

 

Have the courage to say that this can't be done now. Forcing an uncontrolled hard Brexit down the throats of an unwilling populace will only cause division and discord for generations.

 

 

Rubbish.

[bomber]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“The easiest deal in human history”.

 

Those future trade deals will be a cinch.

yes africa and venezuela will be waiting to take our money and goods,getting paid for them will be the difficult bit,my partners father went to the grave being owed a lot of money of zuma,and a local bizzness man in my area was stung for £20 million in venezuela, it was a cinch for them

[anon676545345]

24 minutes ago, keemapoot said:

I don't think so. I think it rather shows that referendum results which cannot reasonably be expected to be enacted within a reasonable period of time may be subject to revisiting. 

 

So, in future, let's intelligently find another way to effect massive changes that take many years, and fully expect that knowledge, attitudes and circumstances may change the perspective if referendum items are too long to implement.

 

Ah yes the people are to stupid to be allowed a say in the future, so when the next version of TTIP come in making government monopolies on health care illegal we can wave bye bye to the NHS, doesn't matter people are to stupid for free health care our neoliberal overlords know best.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Chartist

[bannork]

6 minutes ago, bomber said:

yes africa and venezuela will be waiting to take our money and goods,getting paid for them will be the difficult bit,my partners father went to the grave being owed a lot of money of zuma,and a local bizzness man in my area was stung for £20 million in venezuela, it was a cinch for them

Yes let's trade with countries oceans away and scrap trade deals with 27 countries on our doorstep.

Jeez....

[rixalex]

I don't think so. I think it rather shows that referendum results which cannot reasonably be expected to be enacted within a reasonable period of time may be subject to revisiting. 
 
So, in future, let's intelligently find another way to effect massive changes that take many years, and fully expect that knowledge, attitudes and circumstances may change the perspective if referendum items are too long to implement.

If a referendum result cannot reasonably be expected to be enacted within a reasonable period of time then don't have the referendum in the first place.

The truth though is, the referendum result could easily have been enacted by now. The premise of your argument is therefore in my opinion flawed. You aren't giving the politicians enough "credit" for how "quickly" things have progressed. You now seek to potentially reward them with what they have been seeking from the outset - a way of not delivering on their promise without it appearing like they have broken their promise.

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[Loiner]

The real drama is that from the beginning the govt lied to the people and were not willing to show the consequences of any kind of Brexit. 

That you and millions of your kind risk the future of the young ones you never cared of. 
 

The govt lied to us all way up to the referendum. They forecast consequences of Armageddon and plagues of everything in case of a vote to Leave. It was called Project Fear and it’s still not working.

Millions of us do care about the future of young ones. Not just how it affects our investments or exchange rate to retire in Thailand. I’ll be forever convinced that the EU would continue to strip them of all opportunity in favour of peasant economies in Europe, while being a never ending tax burden on them. So I voted we all have to Leave.

I also believe that the young are to stupid and easily led by Remain propaganda to be allowed to sway this crucial decision. A bit like the Remainers on TV regard Brexiteers really but hey ho.




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[evadgib]

10 minutes ago, bannork said:

Yes let's trade with countries oceans away and scrap trade deals with 27 countries on our doorstep.

Jeez....

We were successfully trading with the furthest members of the Commonwealth long before joining the EU.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

Before the referendum, all the polls showed "Remain" winning. I believe that remainers got complacent and many of them didn't vote. Different story next time.

 

Perhaps ALL the voters will vote next time, if of course there is a next time and what will you do then if the Leavers win?

 

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Which is precisely why I now take ALL polls with a pinch of salt.

My "pinch" of salt is more like a shovel full.

 

 

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

Agreed, sod the polls, let's have another referendum.

 

I have no problem with that. It has to be after this referendum has been completed though.

 

 

2 hours ago, Spidey said:

Much less, that's a certainty.

 

Tell that to the Greeks, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian youth and see what they have to say about it. 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

Edited January 16, 2019 by billd766
Added a link

[bannork]

3 minutes ago, evadgib said:

We were successfully trading with the furthest members of the Commonwealth long before joining the EU.

Yes but 45,% of our exports go to the EU. It would be economic madness to damage that access.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, evadgib said:

We were successfully trading with the furthest members of the Commonwealth long before joining the EU.

The world's changed a bit since then.

 

Empire2 is a non starter.

[dick dasterdly]

45 minutes ago, Bannoi said:

The bookies are giving odds on a 2nd referendum.

I'm not suprised.

 

The best possible 'hope' for remain MPs (the vast majority) is to pretend that another referendum is necessary....

 

I doubt that they are brave/stupid enough to withdraw Article 50, so their only possible chance of remaining within the eu is to call for another referendum - in the hope that the result may be different this time.....

 

A bad choice, as they also know that it leaves democratic votes in shambles and is hardly going to stop the ill-will amongst leavers - who will (of course ????) demand another referendum! 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

And that's the worrying part - bearing in mind the majority of MPs support remaining within the eu.

 

Hence the ever continuing 'kicking the can down the road'.....

At the next election we could always keep the can and kick the MPs down the road.

[evadgib]

2 minutes ago, bannork said:

Yes but 45,% of our exports go to the EU. It would be economic madness to damage that access.

Trade with the EU will resume one way or the other, not least because of the amount they offload per annum in UK.

[evadgib]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The world's changed a bit since then.

 

Empire2 is a non starter.

Yeah, we have planes now but my point was that we're good at this trading lark & the sky isn't going to fall in despite project fear wishing it would.

Edited January 16, 2019 by evadgib

[soalbundy]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

So let’s leave it in the hands of the side that commuted electoral fraud.

just let's leave the whole idea all together, it's not going anywhere, a lot of people have got used to the idea of three meals a day and a roof over their heads, why change it. Apart from royal weddings, dirty air, hungry school children, homelessness, and some people having to pay 60% of their income for rent what has British democracy brought us, oh I forgot, rickets is making a comeback, back to victorian Britain.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm not suprised.

 

The best possible 'hope' for remain MPs (the vast majority) is to pretend that another referendum is necessary....

 

I doubt that they are brave/stupid enough to withdraw Article 50, so their only possible chance of remaining within the eu is to call for another referendum - in the hope that the result may be different this time.....

 

A bad choice, as they also know that it leaves democratic votes in shambles and is hardly going to stop the ill-will amongst leavers - who will (of course ????) demand another referendum! 

There's no point any 'Remain MP' pretending another referendum is necessary unless they sincerely believe that a second referendum would result in a 'Remain' vote.

 

Which is kind of the flip side of why 'Brexiteers' fear a second referendum. 

 

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, evadgib said:

Yeah, we have planes now.

made in the USA

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Trade with the EU will resume one way or the other, not least because of the amount they offload per annum in UK.

Said with the certainty of 'The easiest deal in human history'.

 

[melvinmelvin]

23 minutes ago, evadgib said:

We were successfully trading with the furthest members of the Commonwealth long before joining the EU.

yes yes,

get the great clippers going again

 

port out starboard home - pleasant life, rum ahoy

 

[evadgib]

6 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There's no point any 'Remain MP' pretending another referendum is necessary unless they sincerely believe that a second referendum would result in a 'Remain' vote.

 

Which is kind of the flip side of why 'Brexiteers' fear a second referendum. 

 

Brexiters have no such fear. This is another myth peddled by project fear and their sympathizers including your good self. If a 2nd referendum were to materialize (it wont) the result would be a far bigger landslide that simply could not be contained, not even by official govt tinkering.

[whatsupdoc]

no, it doesn't stop Brexit
but as explained
it requires parliament to actively give its nod and say "go ahead, Brexit".
 

And what if parliament does not give its nod?
I think you forgot about the EU. If the 29th of March passes without a deal, the EU will conclude the UK has left regardless of whether a nod was given by the British parliament.


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[evadgib]

20 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

And what if parliament does not give its nod?
I think you forgot about the EU. If the 29th of March passes without a deal, the EU will conclude the UK has left regardless of whether a nod was given by the British parliament.

Which is fine. All UK then needs to do is return to the Canada +++ deal that will reach Dover in a bottle on the first tide of 30 March. If that doesn't happen we're still 39Bn better off and free to trade either way.

Edited January 16, 2019 by evadgib

[whatsupdoc]

Which is fine. All UK then needs to do is return to the Canada +++ deal that will reach Dover in a bottle on the first tide of 30 March. If that doesn't happen we're still 39Bn better off and free to trade either way.

Good to see that you agree that normal transport will be severely impaired. Have fun with your hard Brexit and you might have to wait quite a bit longer for that bottle to arrive.....


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[dunroaming]

Brexit bedlam?  Hardly that.  We all knew that the deal would be rejected, the only surprise was the size of the rejection.

 

The expected "vote of no confidence in the government" was flagged but I think that has little chance of getting anywhere.  The Tories are fearful of a general election so will rally round May yet again.

 

Brussels have said that there is no room for further negotiation and it is now down to the UK government to decide what they want to do next.  May has said she would come back to parliament next week with a new plan if she survives the no confidence vote.  So she is still trying to push ahead with this stupid deal in one form or another. 

 

As always May will not face reality and look at the only real alternatives.  You can look around for a hero to step in but there isn't one anywhere in sight.

[JAG]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Or.

 

Your assertions on why individual MPs voted the way they did may be misinformed.

 

In which case, so is your conclusion.

Yes, of course, I may be wrong - unlike many in this debate I do admit to being fallible!

 

However, I think that I am probably right in suggesting that many of the conservative "rebels" voted no because they disliked the deal on offer, not because they oppose Brexit.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

And what if parliament does not give its nod?
I think you forgot about the EU. If the 29th of March passes without a deal, the EU will conclude the UK has left regardless of whether a nod was given by the British parliament.


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point taken

 

I invite SW to respond to that . . .