Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[JAG]

Although the House of Commons was united in voting down Mrs Maya deal, they are far from united in why they voted it down. The opposition party (Labour) voted against the government for party reasons. SNP. Plaid Cymru and Lib Dems because they oppose leaving the EU. The DUP because of the effect it would have on Northern Ireland.

 

The government rebels (and there were a lot) voted because they rejected the deal, not because they opposed leaving the EU.

 

So whilst it is correct to say that Parliament is divided it is not right to say that it wishes to remain in the EU.

[elliss]

  Resignations , expected soon. 

[JAG]

18 minutes ago, vogie said:

Haw Haw, had to laugh at that.

Yes, it is always a source of joy(ce) to be able to refer to figures in recent history...

[shackleton]

Mays my way or the Highway has come back to haunt her 

its been a complete Dogs breakfast from the start  2 years and we are no way forward

the last thing thing we need is Corbyn and Labour trying to get back in 

which wont happen ( I have been known to be wrong ) 

I think people here on Thai Visa will be more concerned about the pound

interesting times coming up  

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, JAG said:

Although the House of Commons was united in voting down Mrs Maya deal, they are far from united in why they voted it down. The opposition party (Labour) voted against the government for party reasons. SNP. Plaid Cymru and Lib Dems because they oppose leaving the EU. The DUP because of the effect it would have on Northern Ireland.

 

The government rebels (and there were a lot) voted because they rejected the deal, not because they opposed leaving the EU.

 

So whilst it is correct to say that Parliament is divided it is not right to say that it wishes to remain in the EU.

Or.

 

Your assertions on why individual MPs voted the way they did may be misinformed.

 

In which case, so is your conclusion.

[Loiner]

LOL - Rees-Mogg, Farage, Robinson, Batten are good candidates for the future of UK democracy??? 

YES they certainly are. Much better than any of the current gang of fifth columnists in senior government and opposition.
I’ll vote for all of those.


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[Enoon]

5 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

May needs to step down immediately and let a proper leave PM come in and clean up this mess she made. Rees-Mogg, Farage, Robinson, Batten? Somebody that actually believes in Brexit, believes in our country, and has the stones to get on with it. This should have been a very simple process, no excuses for having made a complete dogs dinner of it.

 

Which would not change the basic situation:

 

Over two thirds of Parliament do not want Brexit.

 

And only they, constitutionally and legally, can approve it.

 

Everything else has just been theatre.

 

One down, one to go.

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Enoon

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

Which would not change the basic situation:

 

Over two thirds of Parliament do not want Brexit.

 

And only they, constitutionally and legally, can approve it.

 

Everything else has just been theatre.

 

 

 

 

 

Parliament can pass as many motions and amendments as it wants, by law we have to leave at the end of March, unless it is agreed to revoke article 50. To extend art 50 we need approval of all other 27 nations.

I wouldn't get too smug at this time, there is still quite a journey ahead of us.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Parliament can pass as many motions and amendments as it wants, by law we have to leave at the end of March, unless it is agreed to revoke article 50. To extend art 50 we need approval of all other 27 nations.

I wouldn't get too smug at this time, there is still quite a journey ahead of us.

Parliament can also repeal the law.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Parliament can also repeal the law.

But only by the PMs approval, and at that this stage it would appear very unlikely.

[Bluespunk]

5 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Whatever your personal views are on Brexit, can we not agree that by abandoning the democratic system to reward the team that had the biggest foot-stamping meltdown is not a good step? This is all way bigger than just Brexit, the future of democracy lies at stake here.

That's just not true.

 

The leave vote has been acted upon and the problems with doing so revealed.

 

There is no reason to say another vote on a final deal cannot take place.

 

There is no reason a "don't leave" option cannot be included.

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Bluespunk

[Enoon]

5 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Whatever your personal views are on Brexit, can we not agree that by abandoning the democratic system to reward the team that had the biggest foot-stamping meltdown is not a good step? This is all way bigger than just Brexit, the future of democracy lies at stake here.

 

Referendums are not part of the democratic system in the UK.

 

They turn up every now and then as what they are in the UK.......Big Opinion Polls.

 

They are an official mechanism in.........Switzerland and Ireland.

 

European Union Referendum Act 2015 - Wikipedia

 

"The bill did not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions."

 

"The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution."

 

"The act made no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government"

 

But by all means seek constitutional change to improve democracy in the UK.

 

In the meantime perhaps educate yourself more thoroughly as to how the system presently functions.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Enoon

[rixalex]

Sometimes democracy is not all it's cracked up to be.

OK. So who gets to decide when it's not all it's cracked to be? Who are we going to put in charge of deciding which decisions need be respected and which need not?

It's a fine and dandy argument all the while the decisions being overturned are the ones you don't agree with. What happens when the tables get turned?

I'll say this, if remainers do get the second referendum they crave, and they win, it's going to be great fun seeing them argue why the vote must be respected.



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[gamini]

1 hour ago, Pedrogaz said:

Where is the evidence for a no deal being suicide? I haven't seen any. A period of uncertainty say 3 to 6 months where stopping people at customs gets difficult. The UK can suspend all duties on food and medicine coming in. A modest loss of exports due to tariffs when trading under WTO rules (average tariff of 1.9% although it would obviously vary with the product/service mix of the US's actual exports). 

The City will lose the most but who are about those greedy  so-and-sos who crash the economy periodically with their greed.

Plus the UK saves itself 39 Billion pounds. 

All the gloom and doom comes from think-tanks forecasts and they have an agenda....they simply forecast whatever the payer for their services wants to see. 

The correct course of action is as follows: recall Article 50; call a general election; hold a second referendum. 

May has not acted in the UK's interests. The population voted for a no deal exit (no one had even heard of hard and soft Brexit before the election....out meant out where we made all our own decisions and kept hard borders to the people that voted for it.) May then negotiated a deal which was worse that staying in....and probably she knew it would not pass Parliament.

 

What is clear is that the UK's democracy is broken. The Party system that worked for many years no longer works. Our representatives in Parliament do not represent their constituents at all if 70% of MPs back Remain. Something needs to be done about this. Perhaps breaking up the Party system and have MPs vote the way their constituents want? 

MPs are voting what their constituents want now, not what they wanted 2 years ago.

Opinion polls all indicate that the majority of people in the UK prefer not to leave the EU.

But of course Brexiteers only believe polls if they are in their favour.

[Loiner]

I wouldn't get too smug at this time, there is still quite a journey ahead of us.

The Remainers can plot and scheme behind the scenes all they like.
Corbyn can play petty party politics all he likes, distracting from the most important matter in a generation.
The EU can continue to obstruct and meddle as much as they like too.
We still have a law in place that we Leave on 29th March.


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[billd766]

1 hour ago, pedro01 said:

 

Because the UK imports far more from the EU than the EU does from the UK.

Why can the UK not import from countries not in the EU?

[gamini]

7 minutes ago, rixalex said:

 

OK. So who gets to decide when it's not all it's cracked to be? Who are we going to put in charge of deciding which decisions need be respected and which need not?

It's a fine and dandy argument all the while the decisions being overturned are the ones you don't agree with. What happens when the tables get turned?

I'll say this, if remainers do get the second referendum they crave, and they win, it's going to be great fun seeing them argue why the vote must be respected.



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Not so at all. Voters would understand what Bexit  really means, instead of all the false promises and confusion at the last referendum. 

[billd766]

47 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Or.

 

Your assertions on why individual MPs voted the way they did may be misinformed.

 

In which case, so is your conclusion.

But he could be right and you could be wrong.

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Hard Brexit doesn't have the votes in Parliament.

 

2 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

It doesn't need any votes. It is the default outcome if nobody prevents it from happening.

No it isn't.

[JonnyF]

5 hours ago, keemapoot said:

Sometimes democracy is not all it's cracked up to be. Especially when the result is a crash and burn brexit that hobbles generations of Britons, and results in serious diminution of the country, its economy and status.

Even though I disagree with your assessment of the consequences of Brexit (I believe if managed correctly it could be hugely positive for the UK), I admire your honesty in admitting that you're not that bothered about Democracy.

 

It's much better than the Remainers who are trying to claim that ignoring the results of the Referendum is actually really democratic. All this "democracy is a moving process", "how can more votes be less democratic", "people's vote" nonsense really grates after a while.

 

Kudos for admitting you just want to Remain at all costs and since you lost the vote, to hell with Democracy.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“The easiest deal in human history”.

 

Those future trade deals will be a cinch.

 

2 hours ago, vogie said:

You have more catchphrases than Bruce Forsyth. ????

You mean like "Brexit means Brexit" ?

[gamini]

5 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Whatever your personal views are on Brexit, can we not agree that by abandoning the democratic system to reward the team that had the biggest foot-stamping meltdown is not a good step? This is all way bigger than just Brexit, the future of democracy lies at stake here.

Democracy is the will of the majority and it appears that the majority of Brits now don't want to leave the EU because they better understand the full implications of leaving . 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

We can find informed comment if we look for it.

Good luck.

[Spidey]

5 hours ago, TopDeadSenter said:

Whatever your personal views are on Brexit, can we not agree that by abandoning the democratic system to reward the team that had the biggest foot-stamping meltdown is not a good step? This is all way bigger than just Brexit, the future of democracy lies at stake here.

We abandoned the democratic system when we had a referendum in 2016. British democracy demands that such a decision should be made by a vote in Parliament. Not a referendum which is basically turning democracy over to mob rule.

[whatsupdoc]

2 minutes ago, gamini said:

Democracy is the will of the majority ....... 

No it isn't. Why do so many on this forum have such a limited idea of what democracy is about?

[SheungWan]

59 minutes ago, Loiner said:

YES they certainly are. Much better than any of the current gang of fifth columnists in senior government and opposition.
I’ll vote for all of those.

The South Thanet strategy.

[JonnyF]

23 minutes ago, gamini said:

MPs are voting what their constituents want now, not what they wanted 2 years ago.

Opinion polls all indicate that the majority of people in the UK prefer not to leave the EU.

But of course Brexiteers only believe polls if they are in their favour.

Polls said Remain would win before the referendum in 2016, how did that work out for you?

 

The only "poll" that mattered was the one on 23rd June 2016. It was a really, really large sample size. The whole population of the UK in fact. A historical turnout. Leave won. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, shackleton said:

Mays my way or the Highway has come back to haunt her 

its been a complete Dogs breakfast from the start  2 years and we are no way forward

the last thing thing we need is Corbyn and Labour trying to get back in 

which wont happen ( I have been known to be wrong ) 

I think people here on Thai Visa will be more concerned about the pound

interesting times coming up  

Shackelton, Halifax, Bristol (Boy) what the Focke, Wulf?

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, keemapoot said:

Rigid, static, dogmatic democracy not allowing change for changing circumstances while maintaining democratic institutions, is as unproductive as no democracy.

 

So which "no democracy" are you selling? Is it the Extreme Right version or the Extreme Left version?

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Spidey said:

We abandoned the democratic system when we had a referendum in 2016. British democracy demands that such a decision should be made by a vote in Parliament. Not a referendum which is basically turning democracy over to mob rule.

Demands? The UK Constitution obviously allows referenda - otherwise the referendum Act would not have been possible. The ruling mob seem to be those mostly occupying Westminster (under false pretences).