Retirement visa refused in Chiang Mai

[thaiboss]

On 3/12/2019 at 5:19 PM, molen02 said:

Do you know what is required as far as paperwork to do the first 90 day non O visa.

I'm renting a house so i assume that my TM30 would be still valid when I come back

take agent pay 23.000 tb with multiple entry nothing is need done in one week no hassle

[jesimps]

32 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Rather than the Embassies reinstate some form of letter for Immigration, I believe the opposite could happen and TI stop accepting Embassy letters.

1. It's clear that certain expats were making false claims on their affidavits/ statutory declarations.

2. It's now becoming clear that many using the Embassy letter are not in fact transferring the amounts as specified under the Police Orders.

 

From 2020, we could see only Thai bank statements (which TI can verify) being the only acceptable form of proof of income.

"1. It's clear that certain expats were making false claims on their affidavits/ statutory declarations."

 

I keep reading this but don't know of any myself, please give some actual examples. If it was happening, then I personally think it was probably only a small minority who abused the system. Some people are just too quick to blame their fellow retirees for some strange reason, rather than the embassies and immigration authorities.

 

"2. It's now becoming clear that many using the Embassy letter are not in fact transferring the amounts as specified under the Police Orders."

 

It isn't becomming clear to me, I just see farang being jerked around again. Once more, lets have some proof of this statement.

 

"From 2020, we could see only Thai bank statements (which TI can verify) being the only acceptable form of proof of income."

 

I sincerely hope for the sake of those affected that someone manages to sort out a more acceptable way of TI checking the the monies coming in from abroad. Retirees are paid/earn money in so many different ways to finance their retirement here that for some it's almost impossible for them to prove 65,000 (or whatever) coming into a Thai bank EVERY month for twelve months.

[BobBKK]

29 minutes ago, jesimps said:

Aren't you a good boy!!!

Others too planned their financial life using the income method, but through no fault of their own find it difficult to prove to TI that the money's coming from abroad.

That's not the problem, be fair. The problem is that many said they had the income but did not. Madness not to do it the easy way.  800k is not a fortune it's a sunk cost.

[CMNightRider]

23 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

Argue it/complicate it all you want.

 

I plan on just keeping the 800 k in an account no need to fool with the time or 400 k.

Cannot think of a simpler way to do things here so easy peasy.

 

And yes, in my mid 60's I have no problem letting the 800 k sit in an account. Unlike some,  I actually planned my financial life for many years so absolutely no worries.

 

 

 

 

I doubt if anyone is concerned about your "easy peasy" financial situation.  Thai Immigration is disrupting the lives of a lot of older retirees daily who have lived in Thailand for years.  Many of these people have no place to go but are being forced to leave because leaders of Thai Immigration would prefer westerners retire elsewhere or financially enrich the Thai banks.  

 

To make matters worst, at least four western embassies have turned their backs on these retirees, and apparently have no plan to fix this Thai Immigration created debacle.

 

I'm sure many posters will rest easy tonight knowing you have "absolutely no worries."  Maybe you might think about having a little compassion for those who were blindsided by Thai Immigration, and save your smug comments for those more deserving. ????  

 

 

[logres212]

On 3/12/2019 at 5:08 PM, ubonjoe said:

You cannot get a single entry non-o visa anywhere in Australia for being 50 or over for retirement. You can only get a OA long stay visa at the embassy in Canberra or the consulate in Sydney.

I'm pretty sure you can get a single entry non O for retirement in Thai embassies in Australia. I got one a few years back in Tasmania and Melbourne. On the application form for Non O visa retirement is not mentioned, but you can write it in where it says 'other'. 

[Thaidream]

43 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

ather than the Embassies reinstate some form of letter for Immigration, I believe the opposite could happen and TI stop accepting Embassy letters.

1. It's clear that certain expats were making false claims on their affidavits/ statutory declarations.

2. It's now becoming clear that many using the Embassy letter are not in fact transferring the amounts as specified under the Police Orders.

 

From 2020, we could see only Thai bank statements (which TI can verify) being the only acceptable form of proof of income.

Sorry- have to disagree on this one-  it was never the intent to have to transfer 65K per month to a Thai Bank-  the intent was to show one had a recurring and substantiated income of at least 65K  per month.  If the intent was to have the monies transferred to Thailand the old police order would have specifically stated so just as it specifically states so right now under the new police order.  

As I mentioned I was asked  by Immigration to prove my income and also had to show I had access to it.  If  they had wanted a transfer of funds- they would have specifically asked me why I was not transferring the money.  My foreign Debit Cards and aTM slips from Thailand satisfied them  the money was foreign sourced as well as my foreign bank account details. They had no problem reading any of it and knew exactly how to decipher it.

 

It should also be noted that the money in the bank does NOT have to be foreign sourced or transferred from anywhere. I can walk into a bank right now with 800K cash and deposit it- show the bank docs to Immigration and it will be accepted.  On a prior extension- I have done exactly this. (The exception is if one is applying with other than a Non O and  it is converted to a Non O)

 

Immigration knows exactly what they are stating and why they are stating it- remember- the order is written in Thai and then translated into English. It is the Thai version that always applies. The reason for allowing  800K or  400K not having to be foreign sourced is obvious.

 

As I have mentioned before showing 65K per month does NOT prove income.   The Embassy letters will remain simply because Thai Immigration feels better seeing  an 'official document' certifying income/ They  may start more often to ask for  some added proof  that one actually has the income such as  an official letter from one's Government with letter matching at least 65K per month. Normally an Embassy asks an applicant to provide some documentation of proof certifying their income.

 

As far as applicants lying about their income- some do; some people also lie on their taxes; lie to get loans etc- but it is against the law. If Thai Imm finds someone has lied- prosecute them but without proof - I am not going to castigate  everyone saying they lied. I know I never did and I know no one who did.  Those that did are in the minority.

 

[Mavideol]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If Thai Imm finds someone has lied- prosecute them but without proof

Thai IMO still prosecute people without proof, it's all about Thai IMO reasonable doubt, if they think one lied, only they THINK one lied they will prosecute him/her immediately and may black mail them, seen it happen last month and most recently 2 weeks ago, they had nothing besides their BS to come after somebody not far from me

[Formaleins]

On 3/12/2019 at 3:58 PM, Tanoshi said:

You need Thai bank statements proving the monthly income transactions came from overseas.

 

If I understand your post correctly, you only made 2  transactions of 20,000 baht then that would not total the 800,000 baht requirement.

Agree, if the money hits the Thai bank there will be a code next to the transaction that shows where it is from / type of transaction. Should be straightforward?

[ubonjoe]

17 minutes ago, logres212 said:

I'm pretty sure you can get a single entry non O for retirement in Thai embassies in Australia. I got one a few years back in Tasmania and Melbourne. On the application form for Non O visa retirement is not mentioned, but you can write it in where it says 'other'. 

The embassy in Canberra stopped the honorary consulates from issuing them about 3 years ago.

From the Melbourne consulate website. http://www.thaiconsulatemelbourne.com/visa-information

Quote

Retirement Visa

Since the Royal Thai Consulate General Melbourne does not issue retirement visas, we are therefore unable to offer any information regarding this visa.

For further information about retirement visas please contact the Royal Thai Embassy in Canberra or the Royal Thai Consulate in Sydney.

Also not shown on the list of visas they can issue.

[molen02]

1 hour ago, mikecha said:

Hi  you can mail or phone the zvb bank  social verzekering bank 

also u can go th there site it is in all languages  

www.svb .nl    gives all the info about overseas payments and what u need also contact info tel nr might be worth trying i have every month a statment on the bank from them saying pension 

So if i understand you, the SVB will provide you with a monthly statement in English if requested. I'm still fluent in Dutch.

[Monkeyrobot]

On 3/12/2019 at 5:05 PM, molen02 said:

Joe I go back to Sydney I probably top the account up to 800.000. Can I get a single non O visa in Sydney?

You can but it’s a lot of hassle much better to come back here and do it. 

[logres212]

33 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The embassy in Canberra stopped the honorary consulates from issuing them about 3 years ago.

From the Melbourne consulate website. http://www.thaiconsulatemelbourne.com/visa-information

Also not shown on the list of visas they can issue.

Retirement has never been listed as reason for a single entry Non-O visa, as this visa can be obtained for a number of purposes. As I stated on my application it was for the purpose of applying for a retirement extension in Thailand. Which I think is still possible. 

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, logres212 said:

Which I think is still possible. 

No you cannot do it now. People have tried and their application was refused.

[ubonjoe]

29 minutes ago, Monkeyrobot said:

You can but it’s a lot of hassle much better to come back here and do it. 

As I wrote before he can only get the OA long stay visa for retirement.

[AAArdvark]

11 hours ago, Joe Mcseismic said:

Still not accepting the REAL reason that these four embassy's stopped the letter, I see.

If you feel better making up your own conspiracy theory, fine. Just don't,  expect other people to believe it.

In the case of the US Embassy/Consulate, it was a simple decision.  They were attesting to an income that they actually had no proof of.  I specifically asked the CM Consulate what I needed to prove to them that I had the income that I claimed.  The answer was existentially "nothing". 

I am sure that somewhere along the way, immigration found destitute Americans with Embassy letters claiming an income that they didn't have.  The Embassy had to choose between not doing letters anymore or writing proof guidelines and getting into the business of ACTUALLY verifying the income.

I have no idea if the over members of the gang of 4 had the same issue.

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

You need to get out and about more Jack.

Thousands of expats in rural areas of Thailand.

Every week there are more and more expats moving out of Phuket and Pattaya in particular.

That does not affect where the vast majority live, ongoing. 

 

5 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

2. It's now becoming clear that many using the Embassy letter are not in fact transferring the amounts as specified under the Police Orders.

4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

If the intent was to have the monies transferred to Thailand the old police order would have specifically stated so just as it specifically states so right now under the new police order. 

Even the new police order only requires proof of transfers for those who don't have embassy-letters.   Those with embassy letters merely need to have the minimum total-income.  Some still use stat-docs.

 

4 hours ago, BobBKK said:

The problem is that many said they had the income but did not.

Yet not one case was referred for prosecution.  Immigration has the letters - could have taken those to the FBI (for Americans) in Bangkok, if they had reason to believe the applicant had lied.  But they never did.  Certainly, BJ would have put that front-and-center in the news, if they had - complete with big color prints behind him, outlining the scam.

 

I don't think the problem was people lying, except to the extent immigration thought a few liars were avoiding the agent-fees (shared with immigration), in exchange for which, lying is welcomed.

Edited March 13, 2019 by JackThompson

[CMNightRider]

11 hours ago, AAArdvark said:

In the case of the US Embassy/Consulate, it was a simple decision.  They were attesting to an income that they actually had no proof of.  I specifically asked the CM Consulate what I needed to prove to them that I had the income that I claimed.  The answer was existentially "nothing". 

I am sure that somewhere along the way, immigration found destitute Americans with Embassy letters claiming an income that they didn't have.  The Embassy had to choose between not doing letters anymore or writing proof guidelines and getting into the business of ACTUALLY verifying the income.

I have no idea if the over members of the gang of 4 had the same issue.

It may have seemed like a simple decision for the person at the American Embassy to discontinue the income affidavit letters, and refusing to issue income verification letters but it had a profound negative effect on a lot of American retirees.  

 

It was all a big joke when they fleeced American retirees $50 a letter for basically doing nothing more than using a notary stamp with a little ink.  Then when faced with doing a couple of minutes work for the $50, they disappeared.

 

The embassy person who made this simple decision, needs to wake up and start the ball rolling to issue income verification letters and stop pretending they don't know about the problems they caused. ???? 

[jacko45k]

17 hours ago, zoza said:

crackdown on the honest retirees.

A crackdown on honesty, love it!

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

It may have seemed like a simple decision for the person at the American Embassy to discontinue the income affidavit letters, and refusing to issue income verification letters but it had a profound negative effect on a lot of American retirees.  

As stated many times in other topics the embassy and consulate is not allowed to verify any document. That was not a decision made here. That is written in state department regulations and law.

Perhaps you should read through this long topic I posted on October 26th.

 

[EricTh]

I've been reading  a lot of rejected cases lately. The safest way although painful is to leave 800k in a Thai bank.

 

I am still confused about the monthly income method on how to prove it to immigration.

 

I don't think immigration is going to look through and verify foreign bank statements written in 100 different languages. They already have trouble with English proficiency.

 

The exodus of expats have started.

Edited March 14, 2019 by EricTh

[EricTh]

28 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

 

 

It was all a big joke when they fleeced American retirees $50 a letter for basically doing nothing more than using a notary stamp with a little ink.  Then when faced with doing a couple of minutes work for the $50, they disappeared.

 

. ???? 

Yes, it's a big joke indeed as I think around 60% of retirees don't have that money and it's a big loophole.

 

Immigration under Big Jok leadership just  woke up to the fact that the embassies didn't do any verification when they are supposed to.

 

Thai immigration can't do any verification either because there are 100 countries with different languages and different bank statements which can be faked.

Edited March 14, 2019 by EricTh

[JimGant]

12 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

It may have seemed like a simple decision for the person at the American Embassy to discontinue the income affidavit letters, and refusing to issue income verification letters but it had a profound negative effect on a lot of American retirees.  

 

It was all a big joke when they fleeced American retirees $50 a letter for basically doing nothing more than using a notary stamp with a little ink.  Then when faced with doing a couple of minutes work for the $50, they disappeared.

 

The embassy person who made this simple decision, needs to wake up and start the ball rolling to issue income verification letters and stop pretending they don't know about the problems they caused. ???? 

Somehow you don't process all the information in the larger picture. The Brits were the first to close up shop -- and they DID screen supporting documentation for their income letter applicants. But they concluded, after meeting with the Thais, that this wasn't good enough, that the Thais wanted tighter supporting documentation, like originals with raised seals and actual signatures. And even with such supporting documentation, the Brits could only "authenticate" that the seal and signature were valid, but not that the information in the document was valid. The Thais insisted on too much -- and since the Brits couldn't deliver, they ended operations.

 

The US watched all of this, apparently got the same briefing from the Thais as did the Brits, and concluded, "Yeah, we could screen the same kind of supporting documentation as the Brits do, but like the Brits, we can't vouch for the authenticity of the income figures." (As shown previously, from a State Dept link, the US Consulate can only authenticate seals and signatures, not the information contained in the document.)

 

So, unless the Thais allow the Brits to continue business as before (i.e., without guaranteed  certainty of validity), the US has no model to follow. And, the Thais probably are enjoying that all those English speaking farangs (with a little Danish thrown in) are now having to "show the money in country." I imagine they envision seeing fewer farangs with tattooed foreheads and lip piercings. And they're probably right.

 

So, why not get all your facts in order before one more posting lambasting the US Embassy and Consulate.

 

 

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, EricTh said:

Thai immigration can't do any verification either because there are 100 countries with different languages and different bank statements which can be faked.

That's why TI don't accept foreign documents.

The requirement is to provide Thai bank statements + letter, showing monthly overseas transfers to the financial requirement, either 40K, or 65K depending on your extension type.

 

TI can 'verify' with the Thai bank they issued a letter and statements to you, if required.

[Tanoshi]

17 hours ago, jesimps said:

"1. It's clear that certain expats were making false claims on their affidavits/ statutory declarations."

 

I keep reading this but don't know of any myself, please give some actual examples. If it was happening, then I personally think it was probably only a small minority who abused the system. Some people are just too quick to blame their fellow retirees for some strange reason, rather than the embassies and immigration authorities.

What do you think the meetings with TI and the Embassies were about.

The honesty of foreigners!

 

17 hours ago, jesimps said:

"2. It's now becoming clear that many using the Embassy letter are not in fact transferring the amounts as specified under the Police Orders."

 

It isn't becomming clear to me, I just see farang being jerked around again. Once more, lets have some proof of this statement.

TI are randomly requesting those with Income letters to produce supporting evidence (Thai bank statement) that they are transferring such incomes. 3 rejected at my IO in the space of one morning last week because they couldn't provide the supporting evidence.

 

17 hours ago, jesimps said:

"From 2020, we could see only Thai bank statements (which TI can verify) being the only acceptable form of proof of income."

 

I sincerely hope for the sake of those affected that someone manages to sort out a more acceptable way of TI checking the the monies coming in from abroad. Retirees are paid/earn money in so many different ways to finance their retirement here that for some it's almost impossible for them to prove 65,000 (or whatever) coming into a Thai bank EVERY month for twelve months.

Well that's the rule, 65K per month, for 12 months.

You don't have to agree or like it, but it is what it is.

Options are available.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Tanoshi

[wadsy]

18 hours ago, parryhandy said:

ermm this house is in Mexico

https://www.elegantmexico.com/blog-travel-tips-villa-stay/

Oops - that didn't take too much detective work. ????????

[CMNightRider]

3 hours ago, EricTh said:

I've been reading  a lot of rejected cases lately. The safest way although painful is to leave 800k in a Thai bank.

 

I am still confused about the monthly income method on how to prove it to immigration.

 

I don't think immigration is going to look through and verify foreign bank statements written in 100 different languages. They already have trouble with English proficiency.

 

The exodus of expats have started.

Where are you guys coming up with the idea representatives from 100 different countries are living in Thailand?  

[CMNightRider]

3 hours ago, EricTh said:

Yes, it's a big joke indeed as I think around 60% of retirees don't have that money and it's a big loophole.

 

Immigration under Big Jok leadership just  woke up to the fact that the embassies didn't do any verification when they are supposed to.

 

Thai immigration can't do any verification either because there are 100 countries with different languages and different bank statements which can be faked.

There were a very small percentage of retirees who were less than truthful about their monthly income, so there was no loophole.  Please get real about people from 100 different countries showing up at Thai Immigration with bank statements, and stop with the faked documents.

 

You couldn't find people from 100 different countries who would want to live in Thailand.  In fact, many westerners are now finding Thailand a lot less attractive due to Thai Immigration demanding foreigners to line the pockets of their Thai bankers.  

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, CMNightRider said:

Where are you guys coming up with the idea representatives from 100 different countries are living in Thailand?  

You're right. It's only 78

(Google on: "Embassies in Thailand")

 

Presumably, if they have an Embassy here, they also have a least one citizen.....

[molen02]

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

That's why TI don't accept foreign documents.

The requirement is to provide Thai bank statements + letter, showing monthly overseas transfers to the financial requirement, either 40K, or 65K depending on your extension type.

 

TI can 'verify' with the Thai bank they issued a letter and statements to you, if required.

I don't think you understood what I've written because you state the complete opposite of what has happened to me and that's why started this discussion. They refused to renew my visa because I could not supply them with overseas documentation of where the money was coming from. The Bangkok bank letter and statements are not enough.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, CMNightRider said:

Where are you guys coming up with the idea representatives from 100 different countries are living in Thailand?  

How many nationalities do you think there are living in Thailand.