Why do 99% of businesses not have air purifiers?

[banagan]

I'm talking about businesses that attract foreigners (Thai's couldn't care less), cafes, restaurants, gyms, co-working spaces etc... 99% don't have air purifiers even though CM is ranked worst quality air in the world. 

 

They're not exactly expensive, 4,500 - 10,000 baht, not a bad investment for 3 months of the year. I know of only 1 co-working space and 1 gym that's out of the city that have them. Gyms especially, I mean its dangerous to work out in this. They should be mandatory.

 

Rang one gym who said they don't have them but have air coolers that sprinkle water? What is it with spraying water, do they honestly think this works?

 

Anyway, from a business and safety(gym) point of view, it's weird that they don't see the opportunity? Ignorance or just penny pinching?

 

They're also having a bloody night marathon at the convention center! New level of stupid.

 

 

 

 

[Briggsy]

Thais are reactionary not innovative. They do what everybody else does. Once it catches on though, it will spread like wildfire. However I think the big market will be residences not businesses. The reason is you can't fake a cool shop or gym but you can fake a functioning air purifier unless the customers come in with PM2.5 meters.

[banagan]

1 minute ago, Briggsy said:

Thais are reactionary not innovative. They do what everybody else does. Once it catches on though, it will spread like wildfire. However I think the big market will be residences not businesses. The reason is you can't fake a cool shop or gym but you can fake a functioning air purifier unless the customers come in with PM2.5 meters.

I'm not talking about businesses that attract Thais, they clearly don't give a 5hit. But most foreigners here are aware of the dangers, especially when exercising. There's plenty of gyms and cafes that attract a lot of foreigners. I'm just surprised that 1 gym has figured this out. As for faking, sure, possible, but it would be easier just to buy a real one, they're not expensive and would pay for itself with the extra business. 

 

[vivid]

Hmm......7pm on 30th March.

Chiangmai Night Marathon

http://www.gotorace.com/event/chiangmai-night-marathon/

[Dinobot]

I wonder the same thing! I would totally choose a restaurant/cafe/gym that promoted PM2.5 filtered air quality.

[steven2018]

Could be cost - those hepa filters are not cheap to change out.

[brommers]

Ignoring the fact that the OP appears to have an active & unpleasant disdain for the very people whose country he is living in, there are most certainly Thai owned businesses that do have air purifiers, the Meechok Veterinary Clinic being one.

 

However there is an issue with the practicality of these machines in premises that are constantly subject to doors being opened and air being contaminated. I have air purifiers running 24\7 in my house, high capacity and high quality ones, and I also have an air quality monitor. It is noticeable how the indoor air is cleaner than the outdoor air but it is also noticeable how the simple act of opening the lounge door just enough to let the cat out or cooking in the kitchen causes a rapid and significant increase in pm 2,5 readings and TVOC numbers, which take some time to be brought back under control.

 

So it seems to me that in reasonably well trafficked places with a regular ingress of dirty air or ongoing simple activities like cooking the efficacy of a domestic air purifier, even a high performance one, will be questionable. 

[boonrawdcnx]

Could be cost - those hepa filters are not cheap to change out.

Exactly - and it would very likely attract the crowd that comes in with their laptops to occupy a table by themselves and spend all day in there with the cheapest cup of coffee in clean air and free WIFI.



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[vivid]

5 hours ago, steven2018 said:

Could be cost - those hepa filters are not cheap to change out.

In the local businesses here in my country (not Thailand), especially at the doctors and medical specialists, there are a few which use air purifiers, no thanks to the recent haze episode in 2015.

 

Long term issue is that they don't get maintained, heck sometimes even the air-conditioners are insufficiently maintained unless an annual cleaning contract is signed.  If it's "expensive enough" then perhaps the cleaning contractor would even call and alert the business operator that a cleaning is due and do a good job which probably helps new cleaning contractors being signed in the future.  ????  

 

I ahve seen AP pre-filters full of dust and the airflow output is very low (HEPA filter clogged) despite being in medium or high speed.  Or that they are set in low speed or night mode because the medium and high fan speeds are noisy, esp in a GP or specialist medical clinic. 

 

So, it's not that simple on the ground as well.

[vivid]

4 hours ago, brommers said:

 

However there is an issue with the practicality of these machines in premises that are constantly subject to doors being opened and air being contaminated. I have air purifiers running 24\7 in my house, high capacity and high quality ones, and I also have an air quality monitor. It is noticeable how the indoor air is cleaner than the outdoor air but it is also noticeable how the simple act of opening the lounge door just enough to let the cat out or cooking in the kitchen causes a rapid and significant increase in pm 2,5 readings and TVOC numbers, which take some time to be brought back under control.

 

So it seems to me that in reasonably well trafficked places with a regular ingress of dirty air or ongoing simple activities like cooking the efficacy of a domestic air purifier, even a high performance one, will be questionable. 

 

Your point is absolutely correct.   Te air purifier filtration can be compared to air conditioning.  In fact, the subsequent rise in levels with a few simple opening of the main doors at a business shop gives very noticeable rise to the PM2.5 levels that takes very long to recover, even more so than air conditioning.    If we think deeper into air filtration vs air conditioning, there are similarities between the 2 and the general concept is the same, but there are also big differences between the 2.  

 

So basically one just would have to appropriately size the air filtration devices for the kind of external load and human traffic experienced.   Just like  we wouldn't want to use a system 3 doing 25000 BTU/h aircon for a 150 m2 business area esp not in 40 deg C heat.  There are commercial cleanroom FFU fan units sold in China and exportable to countries like mine and many others in South East Asia/NZ/Australia/US/CAN etc that can gun out CADRs at over 2000 m3/hr with a H10-H11 filter which is actually more than acceptable for those who have used H11 in their air purifiers and measured with PM2.5 meters before  (you can also use H14, U15, U16 filters if you want, good luck to your pocket though).  

Our cute little xiaomi 2S does CADR 310 m3/hr @ 66dBA, 3-4 units would be pretty loud and unacceptable in instagram type cafes, medical clinics etc.  The cleanroom FFUs are like 57dBA tops, though they are huge.

[vivid]

Anyway if 1 powerful unit isn't enough, just get 2 or 3.  ????   Of course the costs are not going to be low. 

[digbeth]

When Bangkok got the smog panic mid February, there's a mad rush to buy air purifier, the popular models like the Xiaomi are out of stock everywhere and there's hundreds of stores online competing to sell them online on sites like Lazada and Shopee, now that the initial rush and panic in Bangkok has died down, there's a lot of shops with stocks of them that are starting to discount them, question is why isn't CM people buying them up? 

[sfokevin]

Luckily my gym is ahead of the curve and installed these a week ago :-)...

 

 

[vivid]

Are those units Coways, pr Philips?   ????

[vivid]

40 minutes ago, digbeth said:

When Bangkok got the smog panic mid February, there's a mad rush to buy air purifier, the popular models like the Xiaomi are out of stock everywhere and there's hundreds of stores online competing to sell them online on sites like Lazada and Shopee, now that the initial rush and panic in Bangkok has died down, there's a lot of shops with stocks of them that are starting to discount them, question is why isn't CM people buying them up? 

 

It's the same everywhere, Singapore, China etc.   Mad rush, and after that people sell them cheap on second-hand sites as it takes up space.

 

A Samsung AX40 (330m3/hr, nice unit as it's very quiet even at high speed) goes for $465 in the stores.  After the last dense haze season 3 years ago I managed to snag 2 more at just $60 and $90.  The used original filters would smell like s*** literally, toss them out man.   Open up the units and give the insides at good rub with diluted denatured alcohol to get rid of the smell.  

 

  I then get china H11 filters (measured to filter great, no issue in real life) at about $5 a pop, cut them out to size and squeeze in some bubble wrap to stuff up the gaps at the side.

I currently operate 5 units in my 3 bedrooms, 10 sqm, 10 sqm and 17 sqm.  Change them out every 6 months.  No sweat at all.

 

If folks have an emergency prepping mindset and prepare+stock filters, even cheap filters are good, there is no issue regarding cost at all.  Even the lower income can operate air purifier(s)

[fruitman]

5 hours ago, brommers said:

Ignoring the fact that the OP appears to have an active & unpleasant disdain for the very people whose country he is living in, there are most certainly Thai owned businesses that do have air purifiers, the Meechok Veterinary Clinic being one.

 

However there is an issue with the practicality of these machines in premises that are constantly subject to doors being opened and air being contaminated. I have air purifiers running 24\7 in my house, high capacity and high quality ones, and I also have an air quality monitor. It is noticeable how the indoor air is cleaner than the outdoor air but it is also noticeable how the simple act of opening the lounge door just enough to let the cat out or cooking in the kitchen causes a rapid and significant increase in pm 2,5 readings and TVOC numbers, which take some time to be brought back under control.

 

So it seems to me that in reasonably well trafficked places with a regular ingress of dirty air or ongoing simple activities like cooking the efficacy of a domestic air purifier, even a high performance one, will be questionable. 

Have you ever been in a clean room ? (like in a chip-factory) which are the cleanest place on earth?

 

There they use the cleanroom suits of course but before you enter the real production hall one has to pass several small halls with air blowers and air curtains. That works very well, so a gym could also use some small with hepa filters before one can enter the main gym room.

[vivid]

I think one particular mindset that i seem to have come across in my country and also from what i read here is that they want instant stocks, as they are afraid that ordering online would take a long time and by then the haze season would be over.  

Doesn't help that people delay their purchasing decision until their own health or kids' health start displaying symptoms and they really cannot take it anymore etc.  

 

It's already near the end of the smoke season there right?  Songkran i believe is in 2 week's time? 

[vivid]

A decent air curtain installed at the sides/top would help very well in keeping the air-conditioned/filtered air in.

 

Not sure which high-dollar business would wanna do that though, as such air curtains and air purifiers/cleanroom FFUs would cost a fair bit in installation, filter replacements and general cleaning over time. 

 

And in any case, even at AQI 300+, we have seen some people jogging happily without a mask.  ????  Smokers would tell you a similar story as well.  Already read a post here : the issue is not with the smoke but because the pax already has a pre-existing medical condition, you cannot totally blame the smoke? 

So, do all the people really care until a medical issue crops up?   (i have a runner friend with perfect health who nearly screwed up medically as he was running a half-marathon in about 80 ug/m3 air). 

[Small Joke]

15 hours ago, banagan said:

I'm not talking about businesses that attract Thais, they clearly don't give a 5hit. But most foreigners here are aware of the dangers, especially when exercising. There's plenty of gyms and cafes that attract a lot of foreigners. I'm just surprised that 1 gym has figured this out. As for faking, sure, possible, but it would be easier just to buy a real one, they're not expensive and would pay for itself with the extra business. 

 

The best filters only last two years with daily or near constant use.

 

Without incorruptible government inspectors, they'd never be replaced.

 

Speaking of government, and Thais 'not giving a shit', some provincial bigwig announced an invitation to the public to witness their re-investiture on Facebook last week, and so far they have a over a thousand responses in Thai, complaining about the air and telling them where they can shove their ceremony, in no uncertain terms. 

 

Thais will only smile and take so much, before all hell breaks loose.

The writing is on the wall for these pompous old-school tossers in their ice cream suits.

 

Most ordinary Thais are sick of corruption, but it begins, and ends, with the authorities, who Thais are taught not to question.

 

But now the worm is beginning to turn, witness the extraordinary online insolence in the response to a certain directive to only vote for 'good people'.

 

That would have been unheard of before late 2016.

 

 

 

[Small Joke]

38 minutes ago, vivid said:

 

It's the same everywhere, Singapore, China etc.   Mad rush, and after that people sell them cheap on second-hand sites as it takes up space.

 

A Samsung AX40 (330m3/hr, nice unit as it's very quiet even at high speed) goes for $465 in the stores.  After the last dense haze season 3 years ago I managed to snag 2 more at just $60 and $90.  The used original filters would smell like s*** literally, toss them out man.   Open up the units and give the insides at good rub with diluted denatured alcohol to get rid of the smell.  

 

  I then get china H11 filters (measured to filter great, no issue in real life) at about $5 a pop, cut them out to size and squeeze in some bubble wrap to stuff up the gaps at the side.

I currently operate 5 units in my 3 bedrooms, 10 sqm, 10 sqm and 17 sqm.  Change them out every 6 months.  No sweat at all.

 

If folks have an emergency prepping mindset and prepare+stock filters, even cheap filters are good, there is no issue regarding cost at all.  Even the lower income can operate air purifier(s)

There a vast difference between filters (which work in a carefully sealed environment) and 'purifiers' which are as bogus as T2000 bomb detectors.

 

But carry on, lol.

[vivid]

27 minutes ago, Small Joke said:

There a vast difference between filters (which work in a carefully sealed environment) and 'purifiers' which are as bogus as T2000 bomb detectors.

 

But carry on, lol.

 

First of all, apologies for the wall-of-text below : 

 

 

I am not sure which part are you referring to.  But if it's due to those cheap filters in my air purifiers, they do work for the smoke particulates that i am getting here in my country (not Thailand).   I have also purposely challenged the filters before last time with a 0.1-0.5 micron predominant source, ie cigarette smoke, very little PM10 PM50 in there. It'd still register a very good drop on the laser particle counter similar to the drop in the below pics.

 

 

Re-posting below from another thread.  It's not totally scientific and i am not using multi-kilobuck TSI or MetOne calibrated counters, but there really is no need for that, below is just as a reference (better than having no reference tests at all).

 

Of course you are welcome to go and get the full works like cleanroom FFUs equipped with H13-U15 filters and personally DOP challenge them to have them tested. Personal choice and power to you if you want a perfectly sealed unit with regards to HEPA requirements and trying to do laminar airflow filtration to achieve Class 100 or at least operating theatre particle counts in your house etc.  ????

 

I don't have that budget, nor do i believe it'd make a difference in real life to my health, due to many other factors like if the house is leaky or not, or in a commercial mall with air conditioning there always would be external air introduction into the building as part of the IAQ requirement code etc.... so what is a perfectly sealed setup?   My current setup is more than good enough and delivers the required CADR in particulate matter filtration down to 0.3 microns and airflow ACH or Air Changes per Hour in terms of room size, which has been tested and measured before, even though it's not perfectly scientific, but technically i am satisfied. 

 

Bonus video

 

 

1 hour ago, vivid said:

Here's some pics to share.

 

3 air purifiers operating.  Windows have double rubber gaskets so no issue there.  Slight air exchange at the door gaps (keeps CO2 concentration to sane levels).

Laser particle counter, sensitive down to 0.5 microns according to specs.  In any case they also display a 0.3 reading.

It's not going to be absolutely accurate, but just to show the sensitivity especially at the lower end, near single digit ug/m3.

 

External air quality load.

40k+ particle counts per L

>

 

In the filtered room. 420 counts/L @ 0.5 microns

 

 

At the output of my MFresh M8088A with H12 filter. 10 counts per L @ 0.5 microns. 30 counts/L @ 0.3 microns

 

 

At the output of my Sharp with H11 grade DIY filter (cut to size, 1 side stuffed with air bubble packaging to plug up the gap as it's short of 20mm).  120 counts/L at 0.3 microns.  20 counts at 0.5 microns.

 

 

There is also another Samsung air purifier rated at 330m3/hr (but output is probably in the mid 200 m3/hr range, it's relatively silent even at that output) with H11 filter.

 

 

 

[ravip]

11 hours ago, Dinobot said:

I wonder the same thing! I would totally choose a restaurant/cafe/gym that promoted PM2.5 filtered air quality.

During a 24 hour period, how much time will you spend at a restaurant/cafe/gym?

After that?

Dont know about the comment... Thais, they clearly don't give a 5hit.

[cerox]

Because Thai people do not mind the air quality. Foreigners are the only ones complaining.

[vivid]

Anyway, just to share some more info regarding "consumer" grade air purifiers from Sharp, Samsung, LG, Xiaomi, Philips etc since this is an air purifier thread.  ???? 

 

Their filters do filter ok and have good CADRs (that is what matters in our real world environement in the room, even though it'd fail in a cleanroom) even without sealing.  eg the Sharp D40 D50 does not have sealing.  Most of the air still moving across the pleated HEPA media.

 

And yes, other than 2.5, 1, 0.5 and 0.3 microns, their 0.1 micron performance is decent too.  There is still sufficient CADR for 0.1 microns.   In case pax say that these consumer filters with no sealing would not do nothing for 0.1 microns, UFP - Ultra Fine Particles.

 

Share a reference video.  Just for reference coz at least they bothered to measure 0.1 microns UFP which is pretty expensive), i know it's more of a Dyson promotional video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFbSpp_q9WU

 

The rectangular pleated filter below is from a Sharp D40 (jap version or something).  Filtration is at about 87% at 0.1 microns for the H13 filter.

 

If you want the best and can afford the best, then fine, go ahead and get the Cleanroom FFUs with U15, U16, IQ Air 250 / GC Multigas etc. 

 

[THAIJAMES]

2 hours ago, digbeth said:

When Bangkok got the smog panic mid February, there's a mad rush to buy air purifier, the popular models like the Xiaomi are out of stock everywhere and there's hundreds of stores online competing to sell them online on sites like Lazada and Shopee, now that the initial rush and panic in Bangkok has died down, there's a lot of shops with stocks of them that are starting to discount them, question is why isn't CM people buying them up? 

Probably the same reason that thais are not buying them the smog has affected their ability to make proper decisions ????

 

Or they just don't care about their health

[Dinobot]

 
If you want the best and can afford the best, then fine, go ahead and get the Cleanroom FFUs with U15, U16, IQ Air 250 / GC Multigas etc. 
 

If you truly want the best, move away from the north of Thailand!

[vivid]

2 hours ago, Dinobot said:

 

If you truly want the best, move away from the north of Thailand!

 

Some can't leave due to various commitments.

 

Anyway, i just remembered this.  Since we are talking about the best, how about we operate a nice little cafe in a protective bubble?  Cleanroom Cafe, a place for clean air and relaxation.

 

Positive pressure cab or laminar airflow cab, take your pic.  Units and filters are not very expensive from China via sea shipping, we usually ship it over to my country at around 70 US dollars per cbm.

Each FFU can flow around 1500 m3/hr max but of course with that many units and by design of the cab we can just set it in "sleep mode".  ????

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.243.58f21b15LPndaW&id=530578703751&ns=1&abbucket=12#detail

 

[banagan]

12 hours ago, steven2018 said:

Could be cost - those hepa filters are not cheap to change out.

They're not that expensive and mine says it'll last 6 months... so I'd take that at 3.

[Trujillo]

Are you really telling me that you could notice the difference if there was a business with air purifiers running and one without? 

 

My guess is that if you had machines that looked like air purifiers but actually were totally empty inside, people would say the air is better in that shop. 

 

The Thais don't buy these because as fatalists, they don't notice there is a difference. 

[banagan]

11 hours ago, brommers said:

Ignoring the fact that the OP appears to have an active & unpleasant disdain for the very people whose country he is living in.

How so?