Trouble with my Landlord. Your Suggestions/Comments are Appreciated

[justin case]

13 hours ago, DaRoadrunner said:

Duh.... my brain hurts after reading this one. Some people are their own worst enemy. Always pay rent at a bank and keep the transaction receipt as proof. Always check the person you are paying is the real owner by asking to see the house registration.

 

Looks like you could report your lady friend to the police, though I doubt they would do anything, Thai police being what they are.

 

If the landlord will not speak with you direct, then they may also be in on this scam. The landlord may also be in breach of contract for failing to repair the roof. Amending a contract without your approval is also illegal.

 

You could run this story by a lawyer and see what he says. Half an hour advice costs little and you may learn something to your advantage.

 

Bottom line is.... It's a mess. I would be inclined to just move out and disappear.

 

 

you never had a lawyer in thailand, right

 

first consultation here is not free as in the west and will be billed full price 6000 - 9000 baht

 

every mail you send and is read = 1/4 hour billed

every mail they reply to you, even short = 1/4 hour billed

every phone call you place to  = 1/4 hour billed

 

 

[robblok]

If this is real then you will have to pay. You have no proof and there is suspicion your lady friend pocketed the money. Legally your toast, the only thing in your favor is that the landlord did not inform you you were not paying. But it could be that he had informed your lady friend who did not mention it to you. Now the lady friend is gone and he can only contact you and makes the problem known to you.

 

Basically if I was the landlord id go after you too.. I did not get the money. You have no proof of paying a judge would see it my way. 

[richard_smith237]

OP: You haven't paid the rent... Its that simple. 

 

You may have given money equivalent to the price of the rent to someone who was supposed to use that money to pay the rent, but its clear they didn't do it - Your 'lady friend' ripped you off. 

 

If you don't have receipt of payment, you haven't paid the rent. 

 

That said, on the surface it would appear that there has been some collusion between the Apartment owner / manager and your 'lady friend' - especially regarding the additional signature on the contract.

 

It could be that 'something' was negotiated for your contract extensions, i.e. your 'lady friend' took commission for the contract extensions...  and since she has now left the landlord has decided she wants the money.... (just a guess of course).

 

Regardless, without a receipt or proof of payment you are unable to prove your rent has been paid and the onus is on you to be able to provide this proof. 

 

 

I had a similar case on my property in Bangkok. Rented out to two Bangkok University Students (1 Thai, 1 Korean)... The electricity was subtracted via Direct Debit from my account and I billed them.

The students were always late with their rent... (2 weeks or more each month) and never paid the electricity part of the bill - I was fairly flexible and allowed them to cover it the following month (knowing I had 2 months B70,000 deposit).. it was never covered and after a while (10 months) I became a little more demanding. 

One student (thai) had moved out after a fall out with her Korean friend, the Korean girl's father then became involved about the electricity bills I was charging for. He said that his daughter paid the bill directly at Maxvalue (where electricity bills can be paid). However, he had no receipts or proof. I had proof of Direct Debit payment 

It turns out that the Thai Girl had taken the money for the electricity bills and just pocketed it...  She got away with it too because she moved out before she got caught... But she lost her half of the deposit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cleopatra2]

OP , cases of this nature are decided on the premise of preponderance .   Which party has the more convincing evidence .

What evidence does the landlord have that the rent was not paid.

 

[birdi9]

1 hour ago, justin case said:

let me be the first to advise: run quickly to your home country

 

good, right ?

 

For all of you that give me such an advice or similar ones I say thank you. I am sure that you say it with good intentions.

 

However if I take such an advice I must always be looking behind me that someone is trying to get me (I like Thailand and don't like to run away). Bear in mind that I will be renting another place, checking into hotels and doing a lots of other things using my name and passport. 

 

For those of you which say that I don't have a case or just a very slim chance I say that in another country, say Australia or UK or US this case will possibly be regarded as Fraud or Connivance which are illegal. I such countries I may have even more than 90% chance. The landlord may also be liable. In Thailand I agree that the situation is different, but by how much I don't know?

 

In the background information that I have provided I have listed eight reasons for believing that this is a connivance case. Which landlord in his or her right mind will wait for at least 16 months to demand unpaid rent from a tenant? In addition to the landlord in this case the middleman also had kept complete quiet for all that period, in spite of seeing me at least once, but sometimes twice every month.

 

Even Judge Judy may not dismiss this case at hand. The problem could have been stopped if I was informed about not receiving the rent the first month that it had happened. 

 

Please also advice me on how can I handle this case in the light of the background information that I have supplied ? 

 

I also don't underestimate the role that the police can play. What do you think about that role?

 

 

 

 

[steven100]

run lady run  !!   chasing good money after bad money is very unwise ......

 

You have nothing to gain form this  !!

but everything to lose  !!  

run !

[soistalker]

Are people really this stupid? You couldnt have gone to the bank and deposited the money into the landlord's account? Are you living as a invalid? Why would you give money to a sketchy liar? 

[birdi9]

25 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

OP , cases of this nature are decided on the premise of preponderance .   Which party has the more convincing evidence .

What evidence does the landlord have that the rent was not paid.

 

I have provided them with the copies of the receipts that my former lady friend had given to me, I now believing that the signature of the middleman (still trusted by the landlord) is forged on them.

 

My former lady friend seems to have admitted that she has not passed on the rent to the middleman and during last month has paid a small amount only (4000 Bahts) into the middleman's (or landlord's?) account.

 

I strongly believe that it is impossible that the landlord had not been receiving the rent, though perhaps not in full

 

You seem to be a well informed person. Please have a glance on the background information that I have supplied and throw additional lights on this case and options that I may have ? Thanks

[birdi9]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

OP: You haven't paid the rent... Its that simple. 

 

You may have given money equivalent to the price of the rent to someone who was supposed to use that money to pay the rent, but its clear they didn't do it - Your 'lady friend' ripped you off. 

 

If you don't have receipt of payment, you haven't paid the rent. 

 

That said, on the surface it would appear that there has been some collusion between the Apartment owner / manager and your 'lady friend' - especially regarding the additional signature on the contract.

 

It could be that 'something' was negotiated for your contract extensions, i.e. your 'lady friend' took commission for the contract extensions...  and since she has now left the landlord has decided she wants the money.... (just a guess of course).

 

Regardless, without a receipt or proof of payment you are unable to prove your rent has been paid and the onus is on you to be able to provide this proof. 

 

 

I had a similar case on my property in Bangkok. Rented out to two Bangkok University Students (1 Thai, 1 Korean)... The electricity was subtracted via Direct Debit from my account and I billed them.

The students were always late with their rent... (2 weeks or more each month) and never paid the electricity part of the bill - I was fairly flexible and allowed them to cover it the following month (knowing I had 2 months B70,000 deposit).. it was never covered and after a while (10 months) I became a little more demanding. 

One student (thai) had moved out after a fall out with her Korean friend, the Korean girl's father then became involved about the electricity bills I was charging for. He said that his daughter paid the bill directly at Maxvalue (where electricity bills can be paid). However, he had no receipts or proof. I had proof of Direct Debit payment 

It turns out that the Thai Girl had taken the money for the electricity bills and just pocketed it...  She got away with it too because she moved out before she got caught... But she lost her half of the deposit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the long comments and specific one about the addition of my lady friend's name as my agent (without my consent or awareness) on the signature page. 

 

All such comments are really welcome and I will go through them again in future as well.

[Thaidream]

18 minutes ago, birdi9 said:

 

I also don't underestimate the role that the police can play. What do you think about that role?

I would do the following-

 

1.  You have given notice of moving- until you move pay the current rent at the contract rate.

 

2.  Write a letter in Thai  (using a translator from the English) indicating that  you need to sit down directly with the property owner/landlord to  find a solution to the situation and indicating in the letter that you have signed receipts for the alleged missing 5 months rent that indicate it has been paid.  In the letter do not indicate anything about the suspicions you have about forged contracts; forged signatures or anything you suspect is illegal.  Remember the defamation law in Thailand is much different than in the West.

 

As part of the letter make sure that  you maintain an atmosphere of wanting to settle any disagreements. If you can- send the Thai and English version direct to the Landlord by EMS and keep the tracking number.  If you  cannot send it direct-  make sure you have the  full name and address of the Liaison person and send it to her- or  deliver it directly to her  and request she sign a document she has received it. I would ask for a copy of her Thai ID Card.

 

As part of my letter- I would also indicate a response time limit-15 days and a statement indicating that if you have not heard from the landlord in 15 days , you will assume the matter is closed.

 

If , by chance, you do hear from the landlord directly and meet- then you can produce your documentation- 5 signed receipts- showing the rent paid. You may want to suggest  the landlord file charges against your  house guest and  or the liaison. As part of the negotiation- I would show the photos of the damaged furniture and  the repeated requests yew made to fix the property.  I would also have  a written value on the furniture and indicate you want to be reimbursed for the current value.

 

An alternative to the above would be after the letter is sent and the time limit expires- you could then contact the police and ask for assistance in locating the  landlord and have the police set up the meeting to settle everything.

 

I wish you the best

[cleopatra2]

10 minutes ago, birdi9 said:

I have provided them with the copies of the receipts that my former lady friend had given to me, I now believing that the signature of the middleman (still trusted by the landlord) is forged on them.

 

My former lady friend seems to have admitted that she has not passed on the rent to the middleman and during last month has paid a small amount only (4000 Bahts) into the middleman's (or landlord's?) account.

 

I strongly believe that it is impossible that the landlord had not been receiving the rent, though perhaps not in full

 

You seem to be a well informed person. Please have a glance on the background information that I have supplied and throw additional lights on this case and options that I may have ? Thanks

Coupe of questions to clarify

You state the landlord and liaison (landlords agent ?) speak limited English. How have they communicated the rent arrears.

 

What does the contract state with regards missing payments.

 

How has your former friend admitted not paying, and if so , how did she manage to obtain receipts to forge.

 

Have you seen the original contract , held by landlord or liaison , to determine if any alterations correspond with your copy.

 

Generally the best way to resolve matters such as these is to come to some arrangement with the landlord.

[birdi9]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

If this is real then you will have to pay. You have no proof and there is suspicion your lady friend pocketed the money. Legally your toast, the only thing in your favor is that the landlord did not inform you you were not paying. But it could be that he had informed your lady friend who did not mention it to you. Now the lady friend is gone and he can only contact you and makes the problem known to you.

 

Basically if I was the landlord id go after you too.. I did not get the money. You have no proof of paying a judge would see it my way. 

Thanks for letting me know. 

 

At this stage the options available to me are the most important info that I like to know as well

[alex8912]

Since the OP and others have mentioned Judge Judy. Let’s not forget her most famous saying: “Beauty fades, dumb is forever.”

[Caldera]

Tricky! I've always paid my rent by bank transfer directly to the landlord and would have it no other way. In case of any "misunderstanding", bank statements provide irrefutable evidence.

[murraynz]

just move out--simple.. your bond is only small-forget it..go.

you say that you are paying above market rent---surely the answer is very simple..find another house in different area..

most of all---learn from your mistakes... keep life simple..use your brains a little....

[robertson468]

My best advice to you you move out and better still, leave the Country for a little while.  If you want to come back, would suggest you rent somewhere miles and miles away from where you are now and for Christ Sake, pay your own bills and keep you own receipts.  This is as much as your fault due to your lazyness for allowing your "Lady Friend" to rip you off and not checking on her.  The only mitigation is you are not the first and certainly won't be the last to be ripped off by a Thai Lady.  Suggest you relocate your brain back into your head, instead of where it is clearly currently located!

[Sheryl]

19 hours ago, ThaiBunny said:

I just love the language - "my lady friend". She's ripped you off, mate; the landlord hasn't received a single satang and you still owe him the money. End of story

 

Unfortunately I think the above is true.

 

And even if not, you have no way of proving it if the receipts given are forged.

 

Your choices are: pay or move. Moving is probably wiser given your distrust of the landlord.

 

And try to learn from the experience:

 

1. Do not sign contracts you cannot read.

 

2. Do not let a GF or anyone else deliver rent, utility or other  payments.  In this day and age it is quite easy to pay anyone online. Get landlord's banking details and do that. Easy and there is an online trail to show payment.

 

3. Be more careful in selection of GFs.

[birdi9]

5 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Coupe of questions to clarify

You state the landlord and liaison (landlords agent ?) speak limited English. How have they communicated the rent arrears.

 

What does the contract state with regards missing payments.

 

How has your former friend admitted not paying, and if so , how did she manage to obtain receipts to forge.

 

Have you seen the original contract , held by landlord or liaison , to determine if any alterations correspond with your copy.

 

Generally the best way to resolve matters such as these is to come to some arrangement with the landlord.

You have asked several questions and I try to answer the ones that I know the answer in the order that you have asked: 

 

During early March 2019 (last month) the middleman was at the house. He talked to the landlord on phone and wrote the figures that I owe on a sheet of paper (that I have kept with date). Five months rent minus 4000. That was the first time ever. 

 

About two months earlier than that the owner herself had come to the house, apparently unhappy, told me that five months "Discount" "Discount" "Discount". The only impression that I got was that she was unhappy about giving a discount (percentage?) to my lady friend. 

 

I told her if you gave a discount to Khun ... ? she did not pass that on to me. Later on on another day I wrote that info on a sheet of paper and gave to middleman. He takes photo of such things normally and sends to owner on his mobile.

 

I thinks the contract says that if I don't pay the rent on the first day of the month the owner will luck up the house. Apparently 17 months have passed and she has not tried to luck up the house.

 

My lady friend also owed me money and had voluntarily given to me an undertaking letter (in Thai and English as well) about it with a schedule to pay back. I showed the Thai copy to the middleman for giving him a clue about not trusting my girl friend. He wanted to help me and immediately called my lady friend and gave the phone to me. That is when she told me that she hasn't paid the rent to the owner.

 

As I have come to know that she is very skilled liar I don't believe that to be true. I think she has paid those amounts to the middleman or owner, but kept a commission (which perhaps may the one that the owner is calling "Discount").

 

Your next question is extremely important and I love to know the answer too. Which are the alterations on the copy of the contract that the landlord holds ? And my question as well : How can I have a glance of that copy or even better take a photocopy?

 

 

[Thaidream]

15 minutes ago, birdi9 said:

our next question is extremely important and I love to know the answer too. Which are the alterations on the copy of the contract that the landlord holds ? And my question as well : How can I have a glance of that copy or even better take a photocopy?

As I said you and the landlady need to sit down for a meeting and you need to have a trusted Thai  that you have chosen to sit and be the translator and have all your documentation in order.  The best outcome I can see is that the landlady accepts responsibility for your damaged goods but pays nothing  but accepts the fact that you thought the rent was being paid and have receipts to that  affect (albeit  forged).   Everything is even and everyone walks away from the table with a smile.

 

If  push comes to shove you can always suggest the police and see what reaction you get.  Most Thai do not like or want a confrontation- but want to save face.  No one pays anything and accepts the other's position accomplishes both.

[birdi9]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

I would do the following-

 

1.  You have given notice of moving- until you move pay the current rent at the contract rate.

 

2.  Write a letter in Thai  (using a translator from the English) indicating that  you need to sit down directly with the property owner/landlord to  find a solution to the situation and indicating in the letter that you have signed receipts for the alleged missing 5 months rent that indicate it has been paid.  In the letter do not indicate anything about the suspicions you have about forged contracts; forged signatures or anything you suspect is illegal.  Remember the defamation law in Thailand is much different than in the West.

 

As part of the letter make sure that  you maintain an atmosphere of wanting to settle any disagreements. If you can- send the Thai and English version direct to the Landlord by EMS and keep the tracking number.  If you  cannot send it direct-  make sure you have the  full name and address of the Liaison person and send it to her- or  deliver it directly to her  and request she sign a document she has received it. I would ask for a copy of her Thai ID Card.

 

As part of my letter- I would also indicate a response time limit-15 days and a statement indicating that if you have not heard from the landlord in 15 days , you will assume the matter is closed.

 

If , by chance, you do hear from the landlord directly and meet- then you can produce your documentation- 5 signed receipts- showing the rent paid. You may want to suggest  the landlord file charges against your  house guest and  or the liaison. As part of the negotiation- I would show the photos of the damaged furniture and  the repeated requests yew made to fix the property.  I would also have  a written value on the furniture and indicate you want to be reimbursed for the current value.

 

An alternative to the above would be after the letter is sent and the time limit expires- you could then contact the police and ask for assistance in locating the  landlord and have the police set up the meeting to settle everything.

 

I wish you the best

Thank you Thaidream

 

Very thought out and helpful suggestions

 

Lots of useful comments and suggestions are coming and hard for me to digest and process everything at once.

 

I have given almost a similar letter about moving out to the middleman and have plans of going to police as well if not contacted by the owner.

 

Will wait more than 15 days.

 

Would like to write to you again about your suggestions in due course

[scorecard]

58 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Unfortunately I think the above is true.

 

And even if not, you have no way of proving it if the receipts given are forged.

 

Your choices are: pay or move. Moving is probably wiser given your distrust of the landlord.

 

And try to learn from the experience:

 

1. Do not sign contracts you cannot read.

 

2. Do not let a GF or anyone else deliver rent, utility or other  payments.  In this day and age it is quite easy to pay anyone online. Get landlord's banking details and do that. Easy and there is an online trail to show payment.

 

3. Be more careful in selection of GFs.

Agree, especially Sheryl's comment about paying online / internet banking. It's so easy to set up and easy to use. Just one point it's wise for things like rent and more to insist on transferring the money to a bank account which is the same name as the property owner / the name of the person who signed the rental agreement.

 

[moontang]

someone embezzled money from you...you have recourse against them, but rent still has to be paid.  A good time to do a runner..next time you meet a lady in HH, who knows Sukhumvit better than most cabbies...RUN!

[sead]

Owner of barcomplex wanted rent as cash. I only paid by bank an never did she complain.  Be smart in the land of smiles 

[Rimmer]

Off topic posts trying to hijack the topic have been removed

[davidst01]

I didnt read thru it all but rent should be paid direct to a bank account. Take photo of receipt and keep evidence. End of story

[darrendsd]

On 4/10/2019 at 3:43 PM, steven100 said:

The truth is that your ' lady friend ' completely and deliberately lied to you to seek financial gain.

Seriously,  who knows what's been altered  ??????

 

I believe the best course of action is gather all your receipts, contract copies and any other doc's related to the rental and/or payment.  ( I just read where you handed them over to liaison )

Do you have copies /

 

Anyway,   Cost of getting a Lawyer vs missing rent ......    A lawyer may cost 100,000 baht,  is it worth it ???

 

Next move :  I suggest you get the hell outta there and dissappear quitely into the night. Go home, go to a hotel, go anywhere but there.

 

It all sounds to complicated for most to evaluate or offer a solution ..... 

 

 

Terrible advice which could lead to the OP being arrested at the Airport or Border if the Landlord decides to file a Police complaint and yes this has happened before in Thailand

 

OP you have 3 choices

 

Tell your lady friend you know she has scammed you and you want the money back in 7 days 

 

Go to the Police and report her for theft - you will probably need to give them a few thousand baht to take action - Thais normally confess pretty quickly when the police start to get heavy

 

Pay the 5 months rent again

 

At the end of the day YOU are responsible to ensure the landlord receives the rent - not your lady friend not your liason - you

 

So it's you that needs to resolve the problem

 

 

[darrendsd]

On 4/11/2019 at 11:05 AM, robertson468 said:

My best advice to you you move out and better still, leave the Country for a little while.  If you want to come back, would suggest you rent somewhere miles and miles away from where you are now and for Christ Sake, pay your own bills and keep you own receipts.  This is as much as your fault due to your lazyness for allowing your "Lady Friend" to rip you off and not checking on her.  The only mitigation is you are not the first and certainly won't be the last to be ripped off by a Thai Lady.  Suggest you relocate your brain back into your head, instead of where it is clearly currently located!

Again terrible advice - doing a runner is not the answer and could lead the OP being sat in a police cell

[DaRoadrunner]

If this were Thais renting the house, they would have trashed the place, pissed and shat in every room and left.

 

Have you heard anything further from the landlord? Are they demanding money? If not and the landlord does not have a copy of your passport I guess you could just leave.

 

You could get some legal advice first so you know where you stand before making your decision, but I suspect it's not worth the hassle and will only turn your hair grey.

[MeePeeMai]

On 4/10/2019 at 12:34 AM, Lacessit said:

The OP will be tangled up in a legal system that will always favour the Thai landlord if he decides to fight it. The landlord will just say  he has not received any money, nor has he issued any receipts. The tenant's receipts are worthless.

Just leave, and preferably move to another city. The landlord can't chase you for money if he can't find you.

I would suspect that the landlord might go to the police and then he could be easily tracked down via Immigration (TM28/TM30/90 day reports etc.).

 

It would look much better for the OP if he settled up with the landlord (whether he moves out or not), otherwise he may experience an unfavorable outcome when and if the BB/IMM get involved.

[MaksimMislavsky]

On 4/10/2019 at 3:34 PM, Lacessit said:

The landlord can't chase you for money if he can't find you.

One can never be sure if they can find him or not...