Are retirees welcome in Thailand?

[RobMuir]

1 hour ago, marcusarelus said:

I was waiting at the bank a couple of days ago and the place was packed and the guard asked a middle aged woman to get up and give me her chair.  I felt bad for the lady but it was obvious I was wanted. 

Yes thai people very welcoming.

 

I walked into a bar last week. It had just opened and I was the only customer. Someone brought me a cold beer and about twenty  girls ripped off their tops and started dancing for me.

Then one come up and started rubbing me. I tipped the dj and he played the music I wanted.

 

It was obvious I was wanted.

[Fairynuff]

3 hours ago, Janner1 said:

I find that retirees are entirely welcome here. You simply have to comply with 3 things 

 

Bring all your money here.

 

Give it all to some Thai bird or ladyboy.

 

And only stay for 30 days providing of course you have enough left to last you 30 days

Would they perhaps accept 2 out of 3?

[DJ54]

On 4/26/2019 at 11:20 AM, Johnny Rotten said:

It's a Joke. Where else in the world would you have to fill in all these forms and go though all the hoops?

China for one..

[bbbbooboo]

Hmmm.... it’s almost like they don’t want “aliens “ here isn’t it ?

[marcusarelus]

8 hours ago, chicowoodduck said:

They welcome me with open arms each time I make the trip to LOS....????

Name one place outside of your mother's house that does not want your money?

[marcusarelus]

10 minutes ago, bbbbooboo said:

Hmmm.... it’s almost like they don’t want “aliens “ here isn’t it ?

Not at all.  They make it much easier than any other country with the same level of infrastructure. 

[Mike Teavee]

10 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Thanks for your suggestions.

 

I don't have a problem really with the 90 day reports (on their own).  It's the TM30's that are troublesome for me and whenever leaving the country (I leave about twice a year) I still have to drive 3 hours round trip (within 24 hours) to Immigration just to do my TM30 (for the landlord of course).  My landlord works everyday so I must "self report" the TM30 or be in violation.

 

Also, my Imm Office does not allow the TM30 to be done online therefore I need to arrive at Immigration with copies of my passport, a signed TM30 form, a signed Power of Attorney and signed copies of the landlords ID and Tabian ban.  I also have to do one whenever I return from a domestic trip and stayed in a hotel.  It's a real PITA.

 

The money thing is not an issue for me.  I just wish things could be streamlined and consistent for all here in the LOS.

 

I guess you're right,  Maybe I have caught a bug (TVDS) and need to chill out a little bit.

 

 

 

 

 

Can't you can file the TM30 at your local Police Station (others who live a long way away from their Immigration Office do)...

 

 

 

[rumak]

10 hours ago, Fairynuff said:

You don’t have to read his posts, in fact you can block him and not even see them.....or maybe you’re actually a fan

thanks.   I have taken your advice.     ( not a fan at all )  

 

[luckyluke]

11 hours ago, CNX GUY said:

there are some hoops to jump through, 

For all nationalities, except 3, a Letter of Income/Affidavit, is still  issued by their embassy/Consulate, and accepted by Immigration, at least as per last Friday. 

 

No money in a Thai bank, no minimum of 65000 monthly transfer to Thailand. 

 

[5633572526]

On 4/26/2019 at 11:38 AM, Yeahbutwhytho said:

You can be fined for TM30 when doing the extension, or if they rock up at your condo to ask

Yes - there are no reports of getting fined during 90 day reporting however, I meant in general you must do a tm30 everytime you leave/arrive

Got fined 2,000 baht for being a couple days outside the window for reporting after not being able to get the “on line” system to work for me and “by mail” was rejected because the condo owner had not done the tm 30.

[moe666]

I was a ware of the rules when I moved here, unlike many on this forum. If the few rules they have are too much for you go home enough of the crying and complaining.

[Nemises]

Where’s the problem in having 800k baht in the bank? You’re retired. You’re supposed to be financially secure when you choose to retire. If you’re not financially secure, stop whinging, go home and unretire.

Where’s the problem finding time reporting to an Imm Office every 90 days? You’re retired. You’re supposed to have plenty of spare time now.

[Fairynuff]

41 minutes ago, moe666 said:

I was a ware of the rules when I moved here, unlike many on this forum. If the few rules they have are too much for you go home enough of the crying and complaining.

Yet another if you don’t like it go home post.....tedious

[Mike Teavee]

49 minutes ago, moe666 said:

I was a ware of the rules when I moved here, unlike many on this forum. If the few rules they have are too much for you go home enough of the crying and complaining.

So you either have a crystal ball OR you've been in Thailand less than 5 months as new rules were announced in January & enforced from 1st March which impacted everybody on a Non-O Visa... For "Retirees" these were... 

1. Those who use 800K are no longer able to simply have it in the account 2-3 months before, they now need it in there 2 months before & 3 months afterwards and maintain 400k for the other 7 months.  Then there's the reporting back after 3 months to show you still have the 800K, it's too soon to know whether people will be asked to return after a further 3 months to show it's not dropped below 400K
2. Guys from UK, US, AU who used Income Letters can no longer get these and need to show 65k transferred into their account from overseas every month
3. Some guys from the other countries that use Income Letters are being asked for proof of the sources of income & reports from Phuket (IIRC CM also) are saying that this needs to be Pension Income.

So which camp do you fall into...

1. If it's the 800K, it's one thing to leave it untouched (I do) but it's another to have to go to Immigration to show it's untouched
2. If your from UK, US, AU it's 1 thing to transfer > 65K pm if you were already doing it, some of us choose to transfer money when it suits us not to just to tick a box 
3. If you're from one of the other Countries & using Income Letters & have a Pension that exceeds the 65K, congratulations , if not I'd be making a plan B in case you're no longer eligible for an extension next time.

... and how long until another rule change has you crying & complaining or going home... Of course a lot of people impacted by these rule changes will struggle to return home & have little chance of being able to take their families with them... nothing to cry or complain about...

 

It's been said before that there were a lot of smug Retirees when they made changes to Visa Exempt, Tourist & ED Visas, seems there's also a degree of smugness from some Retirees about the changes to Non-O Visas

 

NB For the avoidance of doubt, I don't let my Thai Bank account drop below 1.1 Million THB so have no problems following the "Rules", but nobody told me that I would have to traipse to immigration every 3 months to prove I was still meeting them. 

 

What's next, People having to go to Immigration every 3 months to prove they're still married?

 

 

[xylophone]

50 minutes ago, Nemises said:

Where’s the problem in having 800k baht in the bank? You’re retired. You’re supposed to be financially secure when you choose to retire. If you’re not financially secure, stop whinging, go home and unretire.

Where’s the problem finding time reporting to an Imm Office every 90 days? You’re retired. You’re supposed to have plenty of spare time now.

Although there are some truths in your post, it does miss a few other points which can make retiring in Thailand a bit of a nightmare. Furthermore, there would be many good hard-working folk who chose to retire here because they could do so on whatever pension they had, and not everyone can retire being completely financially secure.

 

Those points I mentioned are the fact that the rules changed and the 800 K that one could have in the bank and then spend, is no longer applicable, and being forced to keep a lump sum of money in a bank with very little interest being paid is against many people's principles, even though they may be able to afford it.

 

The issuing of embassy letters has put some people in difficult positions and they are having to find ways around it.

 

But for me one overriding and annoying fact is that when the new rules were issued, there is/was no consistency in applying them across the board, so you could turn up with all of the necessary paperwork in your hands and could be turned away, many times at just the whim of the immigration officer.

 

And it becomes a bit tedious when one has to produce a hand drawn map of one's location, plus a photograph outside of it, plus many statements from the bank as well as a letter, then turn up 90 days later for the 90 day report, and the point I'm trying to make is that although one may have plenty of time, one may not want to have to "jump through hoops" to comply with ever-changing rules and attitudes.

 

Consistency and the lack of is a key part of what is pissing people off, not always the lack of funding.

 

Last year when I applied for my visa extension I had embassy letters, plus pension letters and a lump sum in the bank and after checking through all of that paperwork the IO glared at me and said, "next year do 800k in the bank"........this despite my application being spot-on, so he took it upon himself to dictate to me what he wanted to see next year, irrespective of what the rules were – – pretty typical attitude IMO.

 

And for the record, I am "financially secure" and will be putting 800k in the bank later this year, but I'm sure the IO will find something to comment on! 

[worgeordie]

Are retirees welcome here ?, well there are no banners at the airport when you arrive,

if you meet all the requirements ,there's no problems,did my new extension in 1 1/2 hours,

the other day ,that's from getting letter from the Bank,travelling to Immigration office,

seeing the IO, and out the door, that's a hell of a lot easier for me,compared to previous 

extensions,which required a 4.00 in the morning rise to get to IO to get a ticket.and I

thank Big Joke for making those changes.

regards worgeordie

[CMNightRider]

1 hour ago, moe666 said:

I was a ware of the rules when I moved here, unlike many on this forum. If the few rules they have are too much for you go home enough of the crying and complaining.

I don't see anyone crying or complaining.  I see people making others aware how Thai Immigration goes out of their way to make western retirees realize they should move else where.  We are not talking about a few rules or regulations but over the top, ridicules rules and regulations for foreign retirees that keep increasing.  Look for more restrictive rules coming your way in May.

 

The westerners who don't mind jumping through these increasing hoops year after year, remind me of prison inmates who are institutionalised.  It's almost like they enjoy the 90 day reporting, TM forms to report all movement, the yearly trips to immigration to submit the same forms year after year, and now the banking scheme these people came up with.

 

There are communists countries who have more freedom for foreigners than Thailand.  Wake up and smell the coffee. ????    

[marcusarelus]

51 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

NB For the avoidance of doubt, I don't let my Thai Bank account drop below 1.1 Million THB so have no problems following the "Rules", but nobody told me that I would have to traipse to immigration every 3 months to prove I was still meeting them.

I believe you only have to go once 90 days after you receive the extension.  I agree and I don't like that so I'm switching to the income method now that I don't have to take a taxi to Bangkok to pay my lazy embassy to get a letter.  For me it's off to the bank and then to immigration.  Not going back after 90 days for income verification I don't think. 

[marcusarelus]

9 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

The westerners who don't mind jumping through these increasing hoops year after year, remind me of prison inmates who are institutionalised.  

I'm not jumping through any hoops.  It got easier for me and less profitable for Thai banks as I will switched to the income method.  Maybe speak for yourself because you don't speak for me. 

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I'm not jumping through any hoops.  It got easier for me and less profitable for Thai banks as I will switched to the income method.  Maybe speak for yourself because you don't speak for me. 

Of course you only speak for you.

But knowing what you are doing now compared to the income method with embassy letters is something that deserves some light.

Under the new income method rules without an embassy letter, full monthly IMPORT into Thailand from abroad is required. Each and every month. No flexibility. For the first year leniency on showing the full 12 months back MAY be shown, emphasis on maybe. Next year, the full 12 month sequence will be definitely required.

As someone that has knowledge on the retirement visa programs in the world, I can say with confidence that in general (maybe not you) a requirement to IMPORT the claimed income is considered to be more of a burden than just proving the income exists.

So objectively you are now doing something that it's very clear that most people would consider a burden -- REQUIRED FULL INCOME REQUIREMENT MONTHLY IMPORT relative to NOT being required to do a full import, monthly or otherwise.

[marcusarelus]

4 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Of course you only speak for you.

But knowing what you are doing now compared to the income method with embassy letters is something that deserves some light.

Under the new income method rules without an embassy letter, full monthly IMPORT into Thailand from abroad is required. Each and every month. No flexibility. For the first year leniency on showing the full 12 months back MAY be shown, emphasis on maybe. Next year, the full 12 month sequence will be definitely required.

As someone that has knowledge on the retirement visa programs in the world, I can say with confidence that in general (maybe not you) a requirement to IMPORT the claimed income is considered to be more of a burden than just proving the income exists.

So objectively you are now doing something that it's very clear that most people would consider a burden -- REQUIRED FULL INCOME REQUIREMENT MONTHLY IMPORT relative to NOT being required to do a full import, monthly or otherwise.

I'm not jumping through any hoops.  It got easier for me and less profitable for Thai banks as I will switched to the income method.  I go to the bank once a month.  During my monthly trip (5 minute walk) I requested a 12 month statement.  200 baht.  I'll get another one when I go to get my extension. 

 

You are assuming a lot based on your negative attitude.  I don't assume. 

 

Like I said it got easier for me and most of the people I personally know. 

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I'm not jumping through any hoops.  It got easier for me and less profitable for Thai banks as I will switched to the income method.  I go to the bank once a month.  During my monthly trip (5 minute walk) I requested a 12 month statement.  200 baht.  I'll get another one when I go to get my extension. 

 

You are assuming a lot based on your negative attitude.  I don't assume. 

 

Like I said it got easier for me and most of the people I personally know. 

I think the difference in our perspectives may largely be because I have looked at COMPETING retirement visa programs in the world. So I can compare things based on a wider knowledge, not just a NARROW look at the history of Thailand policies only. I accept that you are personally happy. If you're happy with required monthly imports, you're happy. That's great. FOR YOU.

 

However, I will NEVER believe that OBJECTIVELY being required to do full monthly income IMPORTS is a better deal for expats in GENERAL than the lack of such rules. For the people with embassy letters, though it is true getting the letter can be a burden, are in a much better situation as far as required monthly imports, as they have NO requirement to import even one baht, monthly and otherwise.

I will also add that most nations with income method requirements don't require reapplications annually. Typically it's one or two times where the income needs to be proven.

 

As I've said before, if you want PROOF of my assertion that it's a better situation for expats to NOT be required to do monthly income imports, talk to 100 expats that can still get embassy letters. Ask them if they would choose not being able to get the letters any longer and to be required to do full monthly income IMPORTS instead. Common sense says obviously very few of those people would willfully CHOOSE the more ONEROUS option.

 

Cheers. 

[JSixpack]

37 minutes ago, CMNightRider said:

Thai Immigration goes out of their way to make western retirees realize they should move else where. . . .

 

The westerners who don't mind jumping through these increasing hoops year after year . . .

Non-westerners don't have to follow the same rules, or are we simply indulging our victimism as usual?

[marcusarelus]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think the difference in our perspectives may largely be because I have looked at COMPETING retirement visa programs in the world. So I can compare things based on a wider knowledge, not just a NARROW look at the history of Thailand policies only. I accept that you are personally happy. If you're happy with required monthly imports, you're happy. That's great. FOR YOU.

 

However, I will NEVER believe that OBJECTIVELY being required to do full monthly income IMPORTS is a better deal for expats in GENERAL than the lack of such rules. For the people with embassy letters, though it is true getting the letter can be a burden, are in a much better situation as far as required monthly imports, as they have NO requirement to import even one baht, monthly and otherwise.

I will also add that most nations with income method requirements don't require reapplications annually. Typically it's one or two times where the income needs to be proven.

 

As I've said before, if you want PROOF of my assertion that it's a better situation for expats to NOT be required to do monthly income imports, talk to 100 expats that can still get embassy letters. Ask them if they would choose not being able to get the letters any longer and to be required to do full monthly income IMPORTS instead. Common sense says obviously very few of those people would willfully CHOOSE the more ONEROUS option.
Cheers. 

To be fair looking at other countries with the same infrastructure in this area like to like we only have Singapore and Malaysia.  And those two places are not in the same financial ball park. 

 

What you are doing is selective google all over the world.  I don't think you are an expert because I can google too. 

 

For real experience I always listen.

 

Remember Jack?  How long did he last?  He messed up in Thailand and he messed up in Latin America and comes back here and blames it on Thai Immigration.  That's what we need.  Real experience.   

 

I went to the American embassy once.  It was not a pleasant nor easy experience.  The bank is close for me and I've been a first name basis customer for 10 years. 

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

To be fair looking at other countries with the same infrastructure in this area like to like we only have Singapore and Malaysia.  And those two places are not in the same financial ball park. 

 

What you are doing is selective google all over the world.  I don't think you are an expert because I can google too. 

 

For real experience I always listen.

 

Remember Jack?  How long did he last?  He messed up in Thailand and he messed up in Latin America and comes back here and blames it on Thai Immigration.  That's what we need.  Real experience.   

 

I went to the American embassy once.  It was not a pleasant nor easy experience.  The bank is close for me and I've been a first name basis customer for 10 years. 

You're all over the place with that post. Lots of diversion that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I'm not playing into that game, sorry.

 

I'll let my previous post stand as it actually does OBJECTIVELY address the issue at hand. Is it more desirable for most expats IN GENERAL to have required monthly import or not?

Another question to ask 100 expats that HAVE lost the ability to get embassy letters. Ask them would they like their embassies to reinstate the letters? Again, you don't need to ask. You and everyone else already knows that the vast majority will say -- I PREFER THE LETTERS BACK!

 

It sounds as if for you personally, you would choose to keep not being able to get an embassy letter. Well, great, at least you are happy with what for most people is clearly a NEGATIVE change.

Cheers.

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It sounds as if for you personally, you would choose to keep not being able to get an embassy letter. Well, great, at least you are happy with what for most people is clearly a NEGATIVE change.

Cheers.

I've said that at least 3 times.  I get a pension income above 65k and have more that 800k in the bank.  I'll use the income method because it is cheaper and easier for me. As it is for most people who have a retirement income above 65k direct deposited to a Thai bank.  I expect the amount will rise in May and I may have to go back to the deposit method. 

 

If there was a cheaper place with the same infrastructure and having my hobbies available I'd have moved there.  There isn't.  

[totally thaied up]

9 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

expect the amount will rise in May and I may have to go back to the deposit method.

If this so called rumor is correct, 50% of my friends will be priced out of Thailand. I hope this is just a unfounded rumor. If it is true, there will be mass change. 

[rumak]

3 hours ago, moe666 said:

I was a ware of the rules when I moved here, unlike many on this forum. If the few rules they have are too much for you go home enough of the crying and complaining.

strange how the one's crying and complaining are the same ones putting laughing emojis onto each

post that says they feel welcome here.   Complaining, crying, laughing ....... tri-polar ?  

[Jingthing]

26 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

I've said that at least 3 times.  I get a pension income above 65k and have more that 800k in the bank.  I'll use the income method because it is cheaper and easier for me. As it is for most people who have a retirement income above 65k direct deposited to a Thai bank.  I expect the amount will rise in May and I may have to go back to the deposit method. 

 

If there was a cheaper place with the same infrastructure and having my hobbies available I'd have moved there.  There isn't.  

 

Obviously for people that are committed to Thailand no matter what, then it will always be Thailand, or bust.

 

 

We can look at global retirement visa programs and see a lot of features that most have in common to some extent and see how the various programs deal with those issues.

 

Such things as these and I'll put down the COMMON SENSE perspective on what's desirable for most expats and what's undesirable. 

 

Paperwork requirements

-- Less and easier more desirable

-- More and harder less desirable

 

Financial requirements

-- Lower more desirable (as more people can qualify)

-- Higher less desirable

 

How to prove?

-- Easier to get the proof, more desirable

-- Harder to get the proof, less desirable

 

Full import of required income or not?

-- No requirement for import of qualifying income, more desirable

-- Requirement to import qualifying monthly income, less disirable

 

Income methods?

 

Pensions only for retirement status?

-- Allowing other streams, more desirable

-- Pensions only, less desirable

 

Note -- some nations offer other options to use non-pension methods for a different class of status, financial requirements usually higher

 

Bank methods

-- Amount required, lower more desirable, higher less desirable

-- Able to spend down based on various specific rules, more desirable

-- Lock up rules, less desirable

 

Frequency of applications?

-- One time only, most desirable

-- Two or more times, less desirable than one time

-- Annual applications required, least desirable

 

Path to permanent residence or not?

-- If path, more desirable

-- If not path, less desirable

Path to citizenship or not?

-- If path, more desirable

-- If not path, less desirable

 

Health insurance requirement or not? 

-- Requirement, less desirable

-- No requirement, more desirable

 

Option to buy into national health system?

-- If option, more desirable.

-- If no option, less desirable

 

This list covers most of the things people can use to OBJECTIVELY compare the different national programs, and how THAILAND fits in to possible international competition. I'm not presenting it as all inclusive.

 

[marcusarelus]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You keep totally distorting my point about comparing to global retirement visa programs.

The comparison has NOTHING to do with whether you want to live in another country than Thailand, or not.

Obviously for people that are committed to Thailand no matter what, then it will always be Thailand, or bust. Don't even need to look at how Thailand's program compares.

I don't get paid to shill for or against anyone or anything.  I'm just telling you how I feel and how the recent changes have effected me.  I'm not trying to distort anything.  When I find a better place than Thailand or Thailand kicks me out - I'll go.