IRS. Am i residing abroad?

[chingmai331]

I need to send in, again, my IRS 1040 from Thailand.  Original not yet received back in USA, sent 15 April. 

Where to send this data, by mail, is my question as the govt website gives an address for 'US citizens residing abroad'.  But i claim on the form my address is in GA, where i keep my drivers license, my bank account address, credit card, etc.

 

Just becoz i'm retired here, on visa extension, am i considered 'residing' here?

 

[lopburi3]

I would think so - I have been using my local Thai address since retirement some 27 years ago.  Have not used mail for many years as using Taxact.

[bkk6060]

I use my US address.

It is much easier for all your accounts, taxes, insurance, etc.

I live here but am still paying my federal and state taxes so...

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, chingmai331 said:

Just becoz i'm retired here, on visa extension, am i considered 'residing' here?

Yeah, but it makes no never mind. Thailand doesn't care if you're a resident (living here over 180 days per year), since they're not interested, for tax purposes, in any monies you're bringing in from abroad (officially, they should be for some monies, but right now they're not).

 

Uncle Sam doesn't care what address you use, physical or mailing, as long as they have an address where you can be reached. Now, if the address is foreign, and you have considerable assets in foreign countries -- that foreign address will give you 4 x times the reporting threshold of foreign assets for FATCA Form 8938 ($50000 if US resident, $200000 if foreign resident).

 

Now, if you were keeping a, say, Virginia address instead of Georgia, I'd say best cancel all connections, and get a mail forwarding address in a tax exempt state. But Georgia is a real tax friendly state for retirees (which I'm assuming you are), with tax exemptions on considerable amounts for folks over 62. [If this is not your situation, best investigate leaving Georgia behind, to include mail forwarding address in Texas, etc, which can also be the address you use on your tax return.]

 

Bottom line: If your age has you in the no-Georgia taxation column, stay with Georgia for your address -- and file with the IRS address for Georgia residents. The IRS doesn't care. And, an address in Georgia can allow for drivers' license renewal, voting registration, etc (all things I lost when I had to abandon Virginia due to their tax rules).

Edited June 7, 2019 by JimGant

[Sheryl]

 

Bottom line: If your age has you in the no-Georgia taxation column, stay with Georgia for your address -- and file with the IRS address for Georgia residents. The IRS doesn't care. And, an address in Georgia can allow for drivers' license renewal, voting registration, etc (all things I lost when I had to abandon Virginia due to their tax rules).

 

You should not have lost your voter's registration. You are allowed to continue to vote in the state you last resided in even if no longer living there (at least as regards federal elections)

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Uncle Sam doesn't care what address you use, physical or mailing, as long as they have an address where you can be reached.

 

Jim, I think there's a bit more to the OP's' question. It's not just a matter of whether he chooses a U.S. or Thai mailing address on his tax return.

 

It's also a matter of whether the IRS considers him an expat for tax purposes, by virtue of either having or not having met the physical presence test (which gets a bit complicated to explain briefly... But basically means whether or not he spent most of the tax year outside of the U.S. or inside the U.S.

 

For example, if he met the physical presence test for being in Thailand, he'd automatically be entitled to an exemption from the penalty for potentially not having ACA compliant health insurance.

 

And, if he was outside the U.S. all during the tax year and/or when the mid April tax deadline came, he'd also be entitled to the automatic two-month extension on the federal tax filing deadline, which would push it back to mid June instead of mid-April.

 

And, if memory serves, if he was mostly outside the U.S. during the tax year and thus considered an expat by the IRS, then there's the particular IRS office in San Antonio TX that he'd be supposed to mail his tax return to...assuming he was doing a mailed return. Otherwise, if he was mostly a U.S. resident, he'd be mailing it to the regional IRS center for where his U.S. residence is located.

 

I think, the question of whether or not someone is supposed to mail their tax return to the IRS Center in San Antonio isn't based on whether they use a foreign or U.S. address on their tax return, but rather, where they were a resident of based on the physical presence test (U.S. or foreign)... But I might be wrong about that....

 

Just as an example to the OP... I live in Thailand full time... thus I meet the physical presence test as being a foreign expat... Yet I've always listed my U.S. address on my tax returns... However, because I meet the physical presence test as being foreign, the IRS automatically gives me the 2 extra months to file and doesn't charge me any ACA penalty...even though my return uses a U.S. mailing address....  And, if I do postal mail for my return, I'm supposed to send it to IRS San Antonio because I am a foreign resident, despite the U.S. address on my return.

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JimGant]

5 hours ago, Sheryl said:

You should not have lost your voter's registration. You are allowed to continue to vote in the state you last resided in even if no longer living there (at least as regards federal elections)

Virginia is one of the four ogre states when it comes to keeping their long arms on former residents. It was only a few years ago that Virginia used having a current Virginia drivers license as proof that you planned to return to Virginia -- thus subject to taxation (this was changed to, ok, no need to return your valid license to Virginia -- however, if you renew this license, yep, we got you by the short and curlies). Same logic applied to voter registration.

[gk10002000]

Technically " verb (used without object), re·sid·ed, re·sid·ing.  to dwell permanently or for a considerable time:"

 

But from me, a person that has lived and worked in 17 US states, residing to me for tax purposes is the "Permanently" part.  So since I maintain a residence in Florida, pay rent and utilities there even when working out of state, I file in Florida area.  I think you should do the same in your case and use your GA address especially since you still have a GA license.  The point about residing abroad and physical presence test another poster mentioned is a valid thing to consider, ACA exemption, foreign earned income exclusion, etc.

[cmarshall]

16 hours ago, JimGant said:

Virginia is one of the four ogre states when it comes to keeping their long arms on former residents. It was only a few years ago that Virginia used having a current Virginia drivers license as proof that you planned to return to Virginia -- thus subject to taxation (this was changed to, ok, no need to return your valid license to Virginia -- however, if you renew this license, yep, we got you by the short and curlies). Same logic applied to voter registration.

From what I have read, VA is worse than that.  They take the view that your tax domicile remains VA until such time as you establish residence in another state.  Don' know whether they count US territories.  That means that if you retire from VA to Thailand, you would remain liable for VA income tax forever.  Nasty.

[ThaiBunny]

7 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

That means that if you retire from VA to Thailand, you would remain liable for VA income tax forever.

Hmmm. A quick Internet search reveals the following:

"Many people believe that this statement means that taxpayers cannot terminate Virginia domicile with a move to a foreign country. At first read it would seem that way. The Virginia tax code provides the definition of domicile, but does not elaborate for foreign moves. However, a quick search on the Virginia Policy Library, Rulings of the Tax Commissioner page yielded several foreign assignments that resulted in termination of domicile. These types of rulings are essentially a textbook of how to terminate domicile for a particular state.

"One ruling outlines a husband and wife who were residents of Virginia, and in tax year 2000 the husband accepted employment in a foreign country. The husband received a permanent permit to work in Country “A,” so they terminated their lease on their home in Virginia, sold their cars that were registered there, and registered their child in school in Country A. In September 2002, the Country A employer terminated the husband’s employment. During August and September 2002, the taxpayers purchased and registered cars in Virginia, took out a new lease on a residence in December, and moved back to Virginia to live.

Pursuant to an audit, they were found to have never terminated their Virginia domicile and were ordered to file the 2000 through 2002 tax returns as residents. However, in response to a letter asking for reconsideration of the audit results, Tax Commissioner Kenneth W. Thorson conceded that it is difficult to ascertain intent and that, “In determining domicile, consideration may be given to the individual’s expressed intent, conduct, and all attendant circumstances including, but not limited to financial independence, profession or employment, income sources, residence of spouse, marital status, sites of real and tangible property, motor vehicle registration and licensing, and such other factors as may be reasonably deemed necessary to determine the person’s domicile. A person’s true intention must be determined with reference to all of the facts and circumstances of the particular case. A simple declaration is not sufficient to establish residency or domicile.”

"In the end, he determined that the taxpayers had in fact terminated domicile in 2000 and reinstated it in 2002 on the date they signed their new lease. The taxpayers were required to file a part-year tax return for Dec. 15-31, 2002, and resident returns going forward."

https://www.form8621.com/expat-moves/

Edited June 8, 2019 by ThaiBunny

[JimGant]

13 minutes ago, ThaiBunny said:

However, a quick search on the Virginia Policy Library, Rulings of the Tax Commissioner page yielded several foreign assignments that resulted in termination of domicile. These types of rulings are essentially a textbook of how to terminate domicile for a particular state.

Yeah, I've read many of these Tax Commissioner rulings -- and overall, they're quite favorable for the taxpayer. This is where I found that, keeping your current drivers license is ok -- but it's just when you try to renew it that they've got a mark against you.

 

Nothing to do with the OP's Georgia situation, but if he's under age 62, he may have a tax situation if he holds out Georgia as his residence. But, as said, if no tax consequence, keeping Georgia could be beneficial, like being able to renew one's drivers license. My Virginia license expired, but from what I've read on this forum, I should have no problem renting a car in the States with my Thai license....

[JimGant]

31 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

They take the view that your tax domicile remains VA until such time as you establish residence in another state. 

Seems this way, if you read the Virginia Tax Code. But several commissioner rulings have allowed establishing a residence in a foreign country equal to establishing in another state.

[cmarshall]

The important point is to study the tax domicile rules for your state and make sure that you separate yourself from the state according to those rules when you move abroad.  Many states take an implied "intent to return" as a basis for determining ongoing tax domicile.  CA, one of the worst states, includes factors in determining domicile such as whether you use professionals in CA and whether you have friends there.    Many states consider whether you continue to vote in your old state.  While any of these factors alone may not be sufficient to make you liable for state taxes, you may unwittingly have several factors against you if you are not careful.  

 

I don't vote in my old state and I surrendered my driver's license when I left.  Voting there isn't worth it to me, because it is a solid state where my vote will never matter.  I am happy to retire from ever driving a car again.

[JimGant]

23 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

And, if he was outside the U.S. all during the tax year and/or when the mid April tax deadline came, he'd also be entitled to the automatic two-month extension on the federal tax filing deadline, which would push it back to mid June instead of mid-April

Key word "or." Had he hopped off a plane on 13 April, with the intent to live in Thailand (no proof necessary), he could wait until June 17th to file, only including a statement, such as "I was living in Thailand on April 15." Turbotax handles this statement electronically, so no need to file by mail.

 

Again, I maintain that whatever address you put on your 1040 is irrelevant. If you're taking advantage of living overseas, like taking the Foreign Earned Income Credit, well then your overseas address has to go on your Form 2555, which attaches to your 1040 (which can have any addess that can reach you on the heading). And, the whole package had to go to a special IRS address, presumably as an automatic flag for auditing. Otherwise, if your taxes are the same, whether or not you're living in the States or overseas, where the 1040 is sent, and what address is in the heading, is irrelevant (regardless of what IRS instructions indicate). Christ, most filings now are efilings -- those certainly aren't parsed off based on the address in the 1040 heading..... Special cases, like Form 2555 filings, warrant, it seems, a unique address. Other filings, including payments or refund requests, get processed whatever. 

 

ACA fines (gone next year) can be exempted -- if you're overseas for 330 days. But what address you show in the heading, again, doesn't raise any flags on whatever you claim here.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

ACA fines (gone next year) can be exempted -- if you're overseas for 330 days. But what address you show in the heading, again, doesn't raise any flags on whatever you claim here.

 

 

My simple point was, whether you meet the physical presence test for living abroad and thus get treated as an expat for tax purposes matters a whole lot more than whether you list a US or Thai mailing address on your tax return.

 

A person could list a Thai address on their tax return and only live in Thailand 6 months out of the year. But with the Thai address and part year living abroad....

--if they were employed abroad, they wouldn't qualify for the foreign earned income exclusion.

--they wouldn't qualify for the ACA penalty exemption up thru 2018 (a penalty that as you noted is disappearing starting with the 2019 tax year).

--they wouldn't qualify for the automatic two month extension of filing, unless they happened to be abroad specifically as of the mid-April regular filing date.

 

On the flip side, meeting the physical presence test -- regardless of whether you use a TH or US mailing address on your return -- does make you eligible for those things.

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Srikcir]

23 hours ago, cmarshall said:

CA, one of the worst states

Some states make it quick and simple to terminate your residency, while others impose demanding requirements.  For example, California, Virginia, New Mexico, and South Carolina are exceptionally stringent in that they all require residents to prove they never intend to return and have permanently relocated out-of-state.  Unless you are able to furnish adequate proof of your intent to permanently abandon your domicile, you will be stuck filing a state tax return. 

https://www.ustaxhelp.com/am-i-required-to-file-a-state-tax-return-if-i-live-abroad/

Remember there's no statute of limitations for failing to file a state tax return.

Let's say that after living overseas 15 years drawing a federal pension, one returns to a state with an income tax to resume physical residence. Expect a huge state tax bill based on all your pension proceeds unless adequate measures were taken to terminate any implied residency in the state. The state can use substance over form to make its case for implied residency.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Some states make it quick and simple to terminate your residency, while others impose demanding requirements.  For example, California, Virginia, New Mexico, and South Carolina are exceptionally stringent in that they all require residents to prove they never intend to return and have permanently relocated out-of-state.  Unless you are able to furnish adequate proof of your intent to permanently abandon your domicile, you will be stuck filing a state tax return. 

https://www.ustaxhelp.com/am-i-required-to-file-a-state-tax-return-if-i-live-abroad/

Remember there's no statute of limitations for failing to file a state tax return.

 

I'm not sure CA is quite as dire as you suggest... I'm a former resident there and haven't filed any CA tax return since I left years ago. When leaving, I purposefully cut all my connections to CA, and re-established those in another U.S. state. 

 

I get a CA govt pension, but it's paid to me in my other U.S. state, so CA certainly knows I exist. But many years have passed now, and I've never had any tax hassle from my former state.

 

From the last time I read up on the subject, there's no hard and fast rule for CA expats. Rather, the CA FTB has a list of various factors/ties that, when evaluated overall, is what they use to determine whether a person has a tax presence in CA. Things like owning property, generating income there, business or other affiliations, etc etc....

 

IMHO, it's really not that hard to manage, if you make sure to avoid the things that would potentially expose you to a tax claim there....

 

Edited June 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Danthai]

Yes, residing abroad. You have to fit the physical presence test. You must file a return. And if you have name on any Foreign bank accounts, must FBAR. And if you earn any money in Thailand, must file foreign earned income, but if you are here 365 days the amount is not taxed unless you make over the listed amount.

[lopburi3]

2 minutes ago, Danthai said:

And if you have name on any Foreign bank accounts, must FBAR

Only if in total holding 10k USD value at some time during the year.  And that report is just a few minutes on computer for most that are required to file and costs nothing.

[DrPhibes]

On 6/8/2019 at 11:27 AM, cmarshall said:

From what I have read, VA is worse than that.  They take the view that your tax domicile remains VA until such time as you establish residence in another state.  Don' know whether they count US territories.  That means that if you retire from VA to Thailand, you would remain liable for VA income tax forever.  Nasty.

Add MI to that list.  Two year battle with MI for a client and it came down to the fact that he still has a MI drivers license (using mom's address) and declared MI as his state when in the military and never established a residency elsewhere.  Retired from the military 7 years go and moved straight to an Asian country.  Has not lived in MI since the late 80's.  Lives in an Asian country where he is a contract worker and not considered a resident (does not pay that countries income taxes).  Due to the drivers license and not establishing residency in another state or country, he is the hook for MI taxes.

[wwest5829]

I retired to Chiang Mai in 2011. While I am a US citizen and thus subject to reporting worldwide income to the IRS, I am a resident of Thailand. My tax returns give my Thai address although I use a Son’s physical address for credit cards, SS, any mailed retirement correspondence ( I switched all I can to electronic delivery to my email address). Works for me. As I kept no property in Kentucky, I continue to vote there but pay no state taxes as no income is earned in the state.

[GinBoy2]

On 6/7/2019 at 5:34 AM, JimGant said:

Virginia is one of the four ogre states when it comes to keeping their long arms on former residents. It was only a few years ago that Virginia used having a current Virginia drivers license as proof that you planned to return to Virginia -- thus subject to taxation (this was changed to, ok, no need to return your valid license to Virginia -- however, if you renew this license, yep, we got you by the short and curlies). Same logic applied to voter registration.

Much the same as California, where Sacramento operates on Hotel California rules.Hold a CA DL and in their mind you're a resident.

 

Now whether or not you get flagged, is debatable, but it could be a problem should you ever go back.

 

I filed for years with my Thai address, but my legal US residency, voter registration, Drivers License was in South Dakota, a zero tax State, soI never filed a State tax return for years

[AgMech Cowboy]

https://www.irs.gov/filing/international-where-to-file-addresses-for-taxpayers-and-tax-professionals

[AgMech Cowboy]

4 minutes ago, AgMech Cowboy said:

https://www.irs.gov/filing/international-where-to-file-addresses-for-taxpayers-and-tax-professionals

sorry. i miss read your post. if you're using a georgia address on the form:

https://www.irs.gov/filing/georgia-where-to-file-addresses-for-taxpayers-and-tax-professionals

It's up to you.

[DogNo1]

JimGant: I file online using TurboTax but don’t know how to use the two-month extension.  How do you do that when filing electronically?

[JimGant]

On 6/8/2019 at 3:19 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

On the flip side, meeting the physical presence test -- regardless of whether you use a TH or US mailing address on your return -- does make you eligible for those things

Well, ok -- what does that have to do with our missing Georgia boy? He's just asking what address to use, and where to file. As long as he isn't trying to exempt foreign earned income from US taxes, whereby, if he is,  he has to file Form 2555 listing his "foreign physical address," -- which attaches to his Form 1040, which can have whatever address he chooses, where the IRS can reach him -- we're back to what address to use on the Form 1040. Uncle Sam don't care. But, if a Form 2555 is attached, you then have to mail your 1040 package to a designated address specific for Form 2555 filers.

 

So, now where should the OP file? His choice.

[Mansell]

On June 8, 2019 at 12:43 PM, cmarshall said:

The important point is to study the tax domicile rules for your state and make sure that you separate yourself from the state according to those rules when you move abroad.  Many states take an implied "intent to return" as a basis for determining ongoing tax domicile.  CA, one of the worst states, includes factors in determining domicile such as whether you use professionals in CA and whether you have friends there.    Many states consider whether you continue to vote in your old state.  While any of these factors alone may not be sufficient to make you liable for state taxes, you may unwittingly have several factors against you if you are not careful.  

 

I don't vote in my old state and I surrendered my driver's license when I left.  Voting there isn't worth it to me, because it is a solid state where my vote will never matter.  I am happy to retire from ever driving a car again.

I lived in CA but as I am on SS I am not liable for any taxes there. In fact I only file with the Feds, not necessary to file with the state even before I gave my address as here. A friend of mine who loves numbers, files my taxes, but state not needed.

[JimGant]

16 hours ago, DogNo1 said:

JimGant: I file online using TurboTax but don’t know how to use the two-month extension.  How do you do that when filing electronically?

Well, you've got 7 days to file.  On the opening TT page, where it asks if you want to continue an existing filing, or start a new one -- at the bottom of the page there's a block to click if you want to file an extension. Click on it, and you'll have two options: File a Form 4868 (that train left the station on April 15th) or claim you lived outside the US on April 15. With the latter, TT will have you fill out a short note, with something like, "I lived in Thailand on April 15. I'm retired." (if not "retired", just say you lived and worked in Thailand on April 15. Not critical, however -- just don't say you were on an around-the-world-cruise on April 15). TT will attach that note to your electronic filing, and there you are. But, you've got to pay the amount due, of course. This will be penalty free for the two months -- but not free of interest.

[Berkshire]

On 6/7/2019 at 10:35 AM, chingmai331 said:

I need to send in, again, my IRS 1040 from Thailand.  Original not yet received back in USA, sent 15 April. 

Where to send this data, by mail, is my question as the govt website gives an address for 'US citizens residing abroad'.  But i claim on the form my address is in GA, where i keep my drivers license, my bank account address, credit card, etc.

 

Just becoz i'm retired here, on visa extension, am i considered 'residing' here?

If your address on the form is GA, I'd imagine you'd have to file where all residents of GA have to file.  You should try filing online (e.g., Turbotax).  Would eliminate some of your problems. 

[chingmai331]

I may try Turbo Tax, or similar, next year.  But frankly all the various schedules relating to my numerous stock trades make the paperwork onerous so i don't know how the online deals with such data. 

I did mail in my 1040 this year to KC, MO using my GA address.  Hope it works.