Trump tells Democratic congresswomen to 'go back' to 'fix' countries they came from

[Jingthing]

Just now, mogandave said:

 

Yeah, that sounds great, but it does not sound like anything new.

Massively repressive police state indeed.

 

It's not easy to reverse such an ingrained problem. For example the for profit prisons incentivize locking up more people for longer. That is basically EVIL. 

[mogandave]

It's not easy to reverse such an ingrained problem. For example the for profit prisons incentivize locking up more people for longer. That is basically EVIL. 

The prisons have little to do with who or how many people are incarcerated.

People have to be convicted of a crime, generally a serious crime, or a long stream of minor crimes.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

The prisons have little to do with who or how many people are incarcerated.

People have to be convicted of a crime, generally a serious crime, or a long stream of minor crimes.

 

Sorry. I'm not buying this line. The stats don't lie. Why does the USA insist on locking up such a high percentage of people when other countries don't do that? The obvious answer is the structure of the system is designed to do that. Nobody is saying that some people don't deserve it. But such high percentages, something is really serious wrong with a country like. 

 

[mogandave]

Sorry. I'm not buying this line. The stats don't lie. Why does the USA insist on locking up such a high percentage of people when other countries don't do that? The obvious answer is the structure of the system is designed to do that. Nobody is saying that some people don't deserve it. But such high percentages, something is really serious wrong with a country like. 
 

And I’m not buying your line.

So why the significant decrease in the last ten years? How has the system changed?

[Jingthing]

15 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

And I’m not buying your line.

So why the significant decrease in the last ten years? How has the system changed?

 

That's a positive recent trend no doubt but have a look at the bigger picture. Still DREADFUL! Americans should be ashamed of that and also the fact that our health system has the highest costs in the world, without nearly the best outcomes, with a significant percentage still with either no or very poor access. 

There is no excuse for this situation. Americans mostly think the country is so exceptional. Why are Americans then so totally inept at solving those two vital problems? No excuse is adequate for that. 

 

Quote

 

America’s incarceration rate is at a two-decade low

 

The U.S. incarceration rate fell in 2016 to its lowest level in 20 years, according to new data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), the statistical arm of the Department of Justice. Despite the decline, the United States incarcerates a larger share of its population than any other country.

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/02/americas-incarceration-rate-is-at-a-two-decade-low/

Edited July 19, 2019 by Jingthing

[mogandave]

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/02/americas-incarceration-rate-is-at-a-two-decade-low/

I wonder where they get all the data from all the different countries, and why one would assume it’s correct.

[EVENKEEL]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

That's a positive recent trend no doubt but have a look at the bigger picture. Still DREADFUL! Americans should be ashamed of that and also the fact that our health system has the highest costs in the world, without nearly the best outcomes, with a significant percentage still with either no or very poor access. 

There is no excuse for this situation. Americans mostly think the country is so exceptional. Why are Americans then so totally inept at solving those two vital problems? No excuse is adequate for that. 

 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/05/02/americas-incarceration-rate-is-at-a-two-decade-low/

I get it.....ypu're ashamed of the USA, you're ashamed of the POTUS  bla, bla,bla

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Again, it is an opinion that results are better in other countries, not a fact.

Just because less is spent in other countries with socialized healthcare, it does not necessarily follow that socialized healthcare in the US will cost less. But you being a “numbers” guy already knew that.

Free stuff for the poor, punish the rich, same old same old.
 

Not an opinion, the US has lower than average life expectancy among the OECD countries.   https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/life-expectancy-at-birth.htm

 

Why do you think that the US is incapable of implementing universal healthcare as efficiently as other countries?  Shouldn't the possibility of saving over $4000 a year per person be investigated?

 

Have you actually looked at overall healthcare costs and results and compared these things with other countries?  Or do you just assume that the mess we are currently in is the best that can be done?

[EVENKEEL]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Not an opinion, the US has lower than average life expectancy among the OECD countries.   https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/life-expectancy-at-birth.htm

 

Why do you think that the US is incapable of implementing universal healthcare as efficiently as other countries?  Shouldn't the possibility of saving over $4000 a year per person be investigated?

 

Have you actually looked at overall healthcare costs and results and compared these things with other countries?  Or do you just assume that the mess we are currently in is the best that can be done?

Factor in the millions of illegals who will probably get it for free, then talk numbers.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Non-violent like drunk-driving, selling drugs or white-collar crimes?

I would be real interested to see the numbers on how many people are incarcerated in the US for non-violent crimes that were not plead down from something more serious, or that did not have a long list of priors.

One could argue that if more attention was paid to prosecuting lower level crimes with rehabilitation programs, the number of lifetime criminals would be greatly reduced.

Every time I went to jail, everyone was in fo the same thing...

How about not locking people up for victimless crimes such as drug use, prostitution and gambling?  I'm all for regulating these areas but not for spending tens of thousands a year per person in prison costs for people who had a drug problem but never hurt anyone but themselves. 

 

However I agree that white collar criminals should serve time.  The Trump University scandal should have been investigated much more thoroughly.

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Factor in the millions of illegals who will probably get it for free, then talk numbers.

Since you are speculating on "millions of illegals who will probably get it for free", why don't you factor it in?  Remember to show your work. 

[EVENKEEL]

8 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Since you are speculating on "millions of illegals who will probably get it for free", why don't you factor it in?  Remember to show your work. 

You're the one throwing around numbers of the savings with universal healthcare. 

[candide]

30 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

Factor in the millions of illegals who will probably get it for free, then talk numbers.

They are already factored in. The potential gain is based on the difference of health expenditure per capita between the USA and other OECD countries. This is calculated by dividing the total expenditure in one country by the total population of this country. The illegals and the poor who don't consume much health services are all counted in the total population. 

[bristolboy]

24 minutes ago, candide said:

They are already factored in. The potential gain is based on the difference of health expenditure per capita between the USA and other OECD countries. This is calculated by dividing the total expenditure in one country by the total population of this country. The illegals and the poor who don't consume much health services are all counted in the total population. 

Which means that the US numbers are in reality worse than they appear since much of the population gets little or no health care.

[Jingthing]

Which means that the US numbers are in reality worse than they appear since much of the population gets little or no health care.

Yes and so many people even with insurance have very high deductibles meaning avoiding doctors unless near death. Stupid system all around.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[candide]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

Which means that the US numbers are in reality worse than they appear since much of the population gets little or no health care.

Exactly.

 

I find the case of insulin in the USA particularly saddening.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47491964

Edited July 19, 2019 by candide

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, EVENKEEL said:

You're the one throwing around numbers of the savings with universal healthcare. 

I'm the one providing numbers from credible sources.  You are the one speculating.

[bristolboy]

12 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I'm the one providing numbers from credible sources.  You are the one speculating.

Even just forcing insurance companies to use a standardized form would greatly reduce costs. That's how it's done in developed nations that provide universal health care via private insurers.

In the USA administrative costs of dealing with different forms are not insignificant.

[Scott]

There are a lot of off-topic posts.   Although interesting, please stick to the topic.  

 

[mogandave]

How about not locking people up for victimless crimes such as drug use, prostitution and gambling?  I'm all for regulating these areas but not for spending tens of thousands a year per person in prison costs for people who had a drug problem but never hurt anyone but themselves. 
 
However I agree that white collar criminals should serve time.  The Trump University scandal should have been investigated much more thoroughly.

You don’t see a 15 year old old girl prostituting herself to support a drug habit as victim?

People in jail for possession have plead down.

[EVENKEEL]

8 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Which means that the US numbers are in reality worse than they appear since much of the population gets little or no health care.

In CA no one is denied life saving care. The problem is the crazy prices for doctors and meds. Take care of that first. Many things can be done without shutting down public Insurance Co.

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

You don’t see a 15 year old old girl prostituting herself to support a drug habit as victim?

People in jail for possession have plead down.
 

My comments were in regards to adults.  Must everything be specified?

[mogandave]

My comments were in regards to adults.  Must everything be specified?

You don’t see an 18 year old woman prostituting herself to support a drug habit as a victim?

Must everything be specified?

[herwin1234]

so whats new and why should i care. He says go back to your own country and they are saying rascist fascist.

[mogandave]

Not an opinion, the US has lower than average life expectancy among the OECD countries.   https://data.oecd.org/healthstat/life-expectancy-at-birth.htm
 
Why do you think that the US is incapable of implementing universal healthcare as efficiently as other countries?  Shouldn't the possibility of saving over $4000 a year per person be investigated?
 
Have you actually looked at overall healthcare costs and results and compared these things with other countries?  Or do you just assume that the mess we are currently in is the best that can be done?

Why do you assume life expectancy is an accurate measure of the quality of healthcare?

Even if it were an accurate measure, why would you assume all countries measure it the same way or with the same accuracy?

Why do you assume people that don’t agree with what you think should be done, think nothing should be done?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

You don’t see an 18 year old woman prostituting herself to support a drug habit as a victim?

Must everything be specified?

A victim of who?  Herself?  Do you propose locking her away from herself?

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

Why do you assume life expectancy is an accurate measure of the quality of healthcare?

Even if it were an accurate measure, why would you assume all countries measure it the same way or with the same accuracy?

Why do you assume people that don’t agree with what you think should be done, think nothing should be done?

You are clearly getting desperate.

 

Can you think of a better measure of the overall effectiveness of a country's healthcare than life expectancy? 

 

A person is alive or dead.  Why do you think there are multiple ways to measure life expectancy?

 

What do you think should be done?  Please provide evidence to support your proposal.  After all, I've provided evidence to support my argument that healthcare in the US is underperforming an grossly overpriced.  What evidence do you have to

[Jingthing]

For an American historical perspective of the flavor of racist demagoguery toward "others" in the USA being critical of U.S. policies now being flung by the "trump" movement, look first to the KNOW NOTHING party (1850s). The "trump" movement is part of a long toxic tradition of racism and xenophobia in American politics. Love it or leave it indeed! Perhaps harkening back to the KNOW NOTHING party is what is really meant by the MAGA slogan of WHEN in the past America was great. You have to admire the honesty of the KNOW NOTHING party in the labeling of their party. Obviously before twitter and advanced gaslighting.

 

Quote

 

The long, ugly history of insisting minority groups can’t criticize America

 

All week, President Trump has been suggesting that black, Latina and Muslim congresswomen critical of his policies should “go back” to “the totally broken and crime infested” countries “from which they came,” even though all but one of the lawmakers he has been attacking were born in the United States.

That made Trump just the latest in a long line of American politicians who have demonized ethnic and religious minorities for political gain. The congresswomen may be citizens, Trump’s argument goes, but they are not real Americans, and therefore they have no right to be “viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run.”

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/07/19/long-ugly-history-insisting-minority-groups-cant-criticize-america/

Edited July 20, 2019 by Jingthing

[FritsSikkink]

[mogandave]

You are clearly getting desperate.
 
Can you think of a better measure of the overall effectiveness of a country's healthcare than life expectancy? 
 
A person is alive or dead.  Why do you think there are multiple ways to measure life expectancy?
 
What do you think should be done?  Please provide evidence to support your proposal.  After all, I've provided evidence to support my argument that healthcare in the US is underperforming an grossly overpriced.  What evidence do you have to

Is this where I’m supposed to say your more desperate than me na-na-na!!!

Yes, a better measure would be one that tracks deaths and or disabilities related to either the unavailability of healthcare and or substandard healthcare.

Life expectancy says much more about lifestyle than healthcare. Fit people generally live longer than fat people. If a population is fatter, would you not expect life expectancy to be shorter that a more fit population?

Life expectancy is not adjusted for deaths due to drug overdose, automobile accidents, suicide, industrial accidents, murder, recreational accidents and any number of other deaths unrelated to the quality or availability of healthcare.

Some countries count infant deaths, some don’t. Some countries have more accurate and or compete reporting than others. But again, even if every country recorded it exactly the same, it would not accurately measure the quality and availability of healthcare.

As far as I’m concerned, you’ve provided links to a lot of useless data. I’m a numbers guy, I need to understand where the numbers come from. You claim a higher life expectancy in and of itself proves superior healthcare, I think that’s ridiculous.

I think the best place to start would be to reform and largely deregulate the insurance and medical industries.

To be clear, I am not for complete deregulation, and I think some aspects should be more heavily regulated than they are now.