Trump tells Democratic congresswomen to 'go back' to 'fix' countries they came from

[heybruce]

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Is this where I’m supposed to say your more desperate than me na-na-na!!!

Yes, a better measure would be one that tracks deaths and or disabilities related to either the unavailability of healthcare and or substandard healthcare.

Life expectancy says much more about lifestyle than healthcare. Fit people generally live longer than fat people. If a population is fatter, would you not expect life expectancy to be shorter that a more fit population?

Life expectancy is not adjusted for deaths due to drug overdose, automobile accidents, suicide, industrial accidents, murder, recreational accidents and any number of other deaths unrelated to the quality or availability of healthcare.

Some countries count infant deaths, some don’t. Some countries have more accurate and or compete reporting than others. But again, even if every country recorded it exactly the same, it would not accurately measure the quality and availability of healthcare.

As far as I’m concerned, you’ve provided links to a lot of useless data. I’m a numbers guy, I need to understand where the numbers come from. You claim a higher life expectancy in and of itself proves superior healthcare, I think that’s ridiculous.

I think the best place to start would be to reform and largely deregulate the insurance and medical industries.

To be clear, I am not for complete deregulation, and I think some aspects should be more heavily regulated than they are now.
 

 

"Yes, a better measure would be one that tracks deaths and or disabilities related to either the unavailability of healthcare and or substandard healthcare."

 

If you can find such measures please provide them and their source.  I'm confident that you will find the US falls far short on these measures as well.  The same goes for you speculation that obesity, accidents, drug overdoses, murders, etc. may not be properly accounted for.

 

The OECD data is the best available.  if you can find better, use it.  However don't claim to be a numbers person then reject numbers that you haven't looked at (have you looked to see if the OECD data treats infant deaths the same across countries?) without providing a better source of data.

 

A higher life expectancy indicates better healthcare unless you can prove otherwise.  US healthcare is only the "greatest in the world" in terms of cost.  How would you measure the quality of healthcare? 

 

You think "the best place to start" is by reforming and deregulating the insurance and medical industries.  How?  Please tell us how your plan would work.  Would it involve no healthcare for people with pre-existing conditions and no insurance for people who can't afford it? 

 

I provided data showing higher life expectancy and much lower costs in developed countries with universal healthcare.  If you want to refute my argument you should, at the very least, find a country that provides better healthcare at a lower cost than the US through deregulated healthcare and insurance. 

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

So do you give Trump any credit for the “criminal reform” since the announcement that 3,100 non-violent prisoners will be released?

Of course not.

No, that's one of the few good things that has happened under his administration.  However it was not his idea, not something he campaigned on, and it had Democrat support before Trump became President and only passed when more Republicans came on board.

[heybruce]

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

I wouldn’t know, but even you (apparently) admit it’s the only place the right is has any voice.

Breitbart, Infowars, Rush Limbaugh....

[mogandave]

Are you in the habit of answering your own questions?
 
Of course you are.

Told ya

[mogandave]

"Yes, a better measure would be one that tracks deaths and or disabilities related to either the unavailability of healthcare and or substandard healthcare."
 
If you can find such measures please provide them and their source.  I'm confident that you will find the US falls far short on these measures as well.  The same goes for you speculation that obesity, accidents, drug overdoses, murders, etc. may not be properly accounted for.
 
The OECD data is the best available.  if you can find better, use it.  However don't claim to be a numbers person then reject numbers that you haven't looked at (have you looked to see if the OECD data treats infant deaths the same across countries?) without providing a better source of data.
 
A higher life expectancy indicates better healthcare unless you can prove otherwise.  US healthcare is only the "greatest in the world" in terms of cost.  How would you measure the quality of healthcare? 
 
You think "the best place to start" is by reforming and deregulating the insurance and medical industries.  How?  Please tell us how your plan would work.  Would it involve no healthcare for people with pre-existing conditions and no insurance for people who can't afford it? 
 
I provided data showing higher life expectancy and much lower costs in developed countries with universal healthcare.  If you want to refute my argument you should, at the very least, find a country that provides better healthcare at a lower cost than the US through deregulated healthcare and insurance. 

“A higher life expectancy indicates better healthcare unless you can prove otherwise.” Hilarious. Even the site you liked to listed healthcare as only one factor in life expectancy.

Yes, you “...provided data showing higher life expectancy and much lower cost...”. Not sure why you’re harping on this, but to be clear, I never said other countries didn’t spend less, nor did I say other populations didn’t have longer life expectancies.

[Scott]

This is getting pretty far afield.   Please stick to the topic.  

 

[lannarebirth]

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

No, that's one of the few good things that has happened under his administration.  However it was not his idea, not something he campaigned on, and it had Democrat support before Trump became President and only passed when more Republicans came on board.

 

I think Kim and Kanye talked him into it.

[simple1]

9 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

I don't think Omar Ilhan was asking Trump for a job or checking into one of his hotels.  

Stop deflecting. You were questioning a poster who commented on HR policy regards discrimination. He is correct.

 

On topic. IMO USA currently has a flaw with it's regulatory environment when 'free speech' permits discrimination by the President and others, who then doubles down with encouraging hate speech which currently is legally permitted under the First Amendment. It is without doubt Hate Speech leads to violence / oppression. In the age of instant communications and Social Media it seems to me that there should be legislation enacted to address Hate Speech, as it is in some other Western Democracies.

Edited July 20, 2019 by simple1

[lannarebirth]

55 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Stop deflecting. You were questioning a poster who commented on HR policy regards discrimination. He is correct.

 

On topic. IMO USA currently has a flaw with it's regulatory environment when 'free speech' permits discrimination by the President and others, who then doubles down with encouraging hate speech which currently is legally permitted under the First Amendment. It is without doubt Hate Speech leads to violence / oppression. In the age of instant communications and Social Media it seems to me that there should be legislation enacted to address Hate Speech, as it is in some other Western Democracies.

 

That's where the Second Amendment comes in. One of his more ardent followers will probably take him out because they don't think he's hateful enough. Checks and balances in the Land of the Free.

[RJRS1301]

The man is unable to even review what he said that may have been deemed to be offensive to some. He then just stokes the fires of division.

I notice he went into full flight about the UK ambassador making comments regarding his administration, but feels it is acceptable for him to blatantly criticise the current UK PM and her performance. I wonder how Boris feels being endorsed by him, possibly like all those “great “ appointees he made to office, then called them insulting names when they resigned.

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

“A higher life expectancy indicates better healthcare unless you can prove otherwise.” Hilarious. Even the site you liked to listed healthcare as only one factor in life expectancy.

Yes, you “...provided data showing higher life expectancy and much lower cost...”. Not sure why you’re harping on this, but to be clear, I never said other countries didn’t spend less, nor did I say other populations didn’t have longer life expectancies.

 

Just to be clear, you agree that all the developed countries with universal healthcare spend significantly less money per person on healthcare, and most of them have higher life expectancy than the US, but you don't think universal healthcare is a good idea for the US.  Correct?

[pegman]

7 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Yeah, I know most American Jews are leftists that hate Trump.

 

That's true and they should be applauded for it. I haven't known many Jews but of the ones I've known or worked with everyone of them have been good people. Not the type of people that would have any use for Trump. Although I would say left in the American context so maybe not so left when compared to say Canada or Nordic countries. 

 

So how are Trump and AOC thought of where they are both known best? In Queens, NYC, where he grew up, Trump recieved 22% of the vote in 2016. AOC recieved 78% in the same area in 2018. That ladies and gentlemen about says it all. Trump shouldn't go back to where he comes from because he sure as hell isn't wanted there.

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Does this mean if I move to a country with universal health care I'll live longer?

 

Of course not, proponents of Universal health care can make their case with cute graphs all they want. It doesn't make it so. 

What are you making your case with?

[mogandave]

Stop deflecting. You were questioning a poster who commented on HR policy regards discrimination. He is correct.
 
On topic. IMO USA currently has a flaw with it's regulatory environment when 'free speech' permits discrimination by the President and others, who then doubles down with encouraging hate speech which currently is legally permitted under the First Amendment. It is without doubt Hate Speech leads to violence / oppression. In the age of instant communications and Social Media it seems to me that there should be legislation enacted to address Hate Speech, as it is in some other Western Democracies.

Yet she can call him a nazi, a racist, a fascist, a dictator a mother-f’r and it’s all good.

I love that the same people that call him a dictator claim he’s gotten nothing done, how is that?

[RJRS1301]

5 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Yet she can call him a nazi, a racist, a fascist, a dictator a mother-f’r and it’s all good.

I love that the same people that call him a dictator claim he’s gotten nothing done, how is that?

 

he is too busy dictating his tweets

[mogandave]

That's true and they should be applauded for it. I haven't known many Jews but of the ones I've known or worked with everyone of them have been good people. Not the type of people that would have any use for Trump. Although I would say left in the American context so maybe not so left when compared to say Canada or Nordic countries. 

Well apparently claiming most American Jews are left wing is “stereotyping a minority” which (apparently) makes you a racist.

Calling people racist is a tool the left uses to avoid real issues.

[mogandave]

Tells crowd Trump ‘sent me back to Queens’ with racist attack

Of course she did. If he’s not a racist, she would actually have to discuss what he’s talking about.

[EVENKEEL]

57 minutes ago, heybruce said:

What are you making your case with?

I stay in Thailand, hence Thai Visa Forum. As you know here Thais can go to a Gov Hospital for mostly free. Yet you would be hard pressed to find evidence of longer life span here vs. USA. Why? Because Gov health care isn't as good as uptown hospital care. Here if an old person has cancer they're sent home to die. In the US if a person with no Insurance is diagnosed with cancer are they turned away? So, you say well Thailand isn't a FWC.....right. 

 

But my belief is if health care is to be free for all and we are all forced into it with poor folks getting it for free and workers like me and maybe you will be forced to pay for everyone else.

 

Do what you want for the disenfranchised folks but don't force me into the same crappy healthcare as the person who gets it for free.

 

Diet has to do with life span as much as health care.

[Becker]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

Of course she did. If he’s not a racist, she would actually have to discuss what he’s talking about.

 

You mean actually talking about his inane tweets?? Now that's pure torture.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

 

Yet she can call him a nazi, a racist, a fascist, a dictator a mother-f’r and it’s all good.

I love that the same people that call him a dictator claim he’s gotten nothing done, how is that?

 

If the US had enacted hate Speech legislation then the person making such accusations could end up in front of a Court. However, correct me if I'm wrong, the President can only be impeached. Again IMO Republican behaviour also demonstrates a flaw in current legislation.

 

Trump uses executive privilege to try & circumvent constraints on his power. trump is busily appointing conservative judges to change the tone of the judicial system. It is not impossible trump could end up with dictatorial powers. 

[Nigel Garvie]

30 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Well apparently claiming most American Jews are left wing is “stereotyping a minority” which (apparently) makes you a racist.

Calling people racist is a tool the left uses to avoid real issues.

 

" Stereotyping a minority" is only racist if it refers to negative stereotyping of a particular race as a whole. "Old white males are stupid  and venal" is negative stereotyping, but only refers to a particular group within a race. "Chinese immigrants are only here to steal our inventions" is negative racial stereotyping. Being left or right wing is a matter of political affiliation. If a particular group tends to support one party or another, that is an observation not a (Negative) stereotype. 

[OneMoreFarang]

3 hours ago, mogandave said:

Of course she did. If he’s not a racist, she would actually have to discuss what he’s talking about.

 

One of the problems with him is that he talks all the time without connection to what he said the day before.

The "send them home" is one of those wonderful examples. First all was ok, then he said he tried to stop the audience, then he blamed them media and then he said something different again.

What's the point of listening to someone who changes his mind constantly.

If you agree to what he said yesterday it does not matter today.

But maybe it's necessary to be American to understand how he makes your country great again. It certainly will be a lot of work for many decades to come.

[JHolmesJr]

Another crisis manufactured by DNN and DNBC (democrat news media).

 

Telling a black person to go back to Africa is racist.

 

Trump told these 4 clowns to go back and fix the countries they come from, and then come back and teach

the US how to do it. Obvious sarcasm.

 

Yet they selectively quote what they like. Dishonest, like most lefties.

[atyclb]

6 hours ago, pegman said:

That's true and they should be applauded for it. I haven't known many Jews but of the ones I've known or worked with everyone of them have been good people. Not the type of people that would have any use for Trump. Although I would say left in the American context so maybe not so left when compared to say Canada or Nordic countries. 

 

So how are Trump and AOC thought of where they are both known best? In Queens, NYC, where he grew up, Trump recieved 22% of the vote in 2016. AOC recieved 78% in the same area in 2018. That ladies and gentlemen about says it all. Trump shouldn't go back to where he comes from because he sure as hell isn't wanted there.

 

link to the stats that show that for both trump and aoc limited to voters in the 14th congressional district please.  aoc district includes part of queens and a heavily hispanic area at that and a long time democratic stronghold thus one would expect such a result.

 

i know parts of her district very well and have even worked there. hispanic people there are not stupid but smart and hardworking, a high colombian and dominican immigrant % and are NOT fans of socialism-communism . lets see if they vote aoc in again

Edited July 21, 2019 by atyclb

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

I stay in Thailand, hence Thai Visa Forum. As you know here Thais can go to a Gov Hospital for mostly free. Yet you would be hard pressed to find evidence of longer life span here vs. USA. Why? Because Gov health care isn't as good as uptown hospital care. Here if an old person has cancer they're sent home to die. In the US if a person with no Insurance is diagnosed with cancer are they turned away? So, you say well Thailand isn't a FWC.....right. 

 

But my belief is if health care is to be free for all and we are all forced into it with poor folks getting it for free and workers like me and maybe you will be forced to pay for everyone else.

 

Do what you want for the disenfranchised folks but don't force me into the same crappy healthcare as the person who gets it for free.

 

Diet has to do with life span as much as health care.

I have clearly stated that my comparisons have been between the US and other developed countries.  Not Thailand.

 

Your refusal to ignore evidence and draw upon non-representative anecdotal evidence makes it clear why you are a Trump supporter.

[mogandave]

You mean actually talking about his inane tweets?? Now that's pure torture.

Yet it seems to be all the left does.

Why torture yourself?

[candide]

1 hour ago, JHolmesJr said:

Another crisis manufactured by DNN and DNBC (democrat news media).

 

Telling a black person to go back to Africa is racist.

 

Trump told these 4 clowns to go back and fix the countries they come from, and then come back and teach

the US how to do it. Obvious sarcasm.

 

Yet they selectively quote what they like. Dishonest, like most lefties.

A crisis manufactured by Trump who continuously rants about the so-called squad.

I.e. a quote from the 'send them back'article in TVF:

"At the rally, Trump intensified his vilification of the four congresswomen and underscored that such attacks will be a key part of his strategy for winning re-election in 2020. He went on a 20-minute diatribe about them, saying they were welcome to leave the country if they do not like his policies."

[mogandave]

" Stereotyping a minority" is only racist if it refers to negative stereotyping of a particular race as a whole. "Old white males are stupid  and venal" is negative stereotyping, but only refers to a particular group within a race. "Chinese immigrants are only here to steal our inventions" is negative racial stereotyping. Being left or right wing is a matter of political affiliation. If a particular group tends to support one party or another, that is an observation not a (Negative) stereotype. 

So because Trump was only talking to four women, he could not have been racist.

If one wing constantly the other wing of being evil, stupid, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic and racist, is that not stereotyping?

[mogandave]

If the US had enacted hate Speech legislation then the person making such accusations could end up in front of a Court. However, correct me if I'm wrong, the President can only be impeached. Again IMO Republican behaviour also demonstrates a flaw in current legislation.
 
Trump uses executive privilege to try & circumvent constraints on his power. trump is busily appointing conservative judges to change the tone of the judicial system. It is not impossible trump could end up with dictatorial powers. 

Passing laws to restrict “hate speech” is the left’s wettest dream, as it would end free speech as we know it. I found the President’s comments offensive, but not near as offensive and hate-filled as the at least one of the women he was referring to.

How has Trump used executive power to try and circumvent constraints on his power? Perhaps you mean executive orders?

Conservatives want the government to have less power, not more. Conservative judges are typically literalists when interpreting the constitution. The idea that conservative judges would turn the Presidency into a dictatorship is ridiculous.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, atyclb said:

 

link to the stats that show that for both trump and aoc limited to voters in the 14th congressional district please.  aoc district includes part of queens and a heavily hispanic area at that and a long time democratic stronghold thus one would expect such a result.

 

i know parts of her district very well and have even worked there. hispanic people there are not stupid but smart and hardworking, a high colombian and dominican immigrant % and are NOT fans of socialism-communism . lets see if they vote aoc in again

Here you go big guy

In the 14th district Trump got a whopping 22% of the vote. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election_in_New_York

In the 2018 congressional race in the 14th district AOC scraped by with only 78.2% of the vote.

https://ballotpedia.org/New_York's_14th_Congressional_District_election,_2018