Ten people, including one suspect, killed in Dayton, Ohio shooting

[Dumbastheycome]

There has to be some significance in the fact that he took out his sister.

These events where the excuse and/or blame previously was immediately assumed to be  muslim terrorists has lost credibility.

Add the prolific number of singular shootings plus the "accidental" death toll and the US appears to be urgently and undeniably in need of some more rational regulated gun control.

Possession of rifles by urban dwellers needs questioning for a start IMO.

Regardless the increasing demonstration of the loss or lack of social empathy indicates the devolution of US society in general despite the short lived  expressions of horror and sympathy.

[Nowisee]

 

Is there really any reason for anyone, outside of military or law enforcement personnel in the performance of duty, to be able to purchase an assault rifle and high capacity magazines? 

 

[carabaothai]

Already 251 mass shootings this 2019 year in 216 days! 

[mtls2005]

4 minutes ago, Nowisee said:

 

Is there really any reason for anyone, outside of military or law enforcement personnel in the performance of duty, to be able to purchase an assault rifle and high capacity magazines? 

 

 

Probably not, but SCOTUS has liberally inferred that the overriding determinant is that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

"Infringed" being the most important word in the Second Amendment evidently.

 

I still can't understand why I can't just "keep and bear" any weapon? Reaper Drone? AA12? Grenades? Mortars? FGM-148?

 

It's simply a matter of when, not why or how, some whacko outfits a Roomba or drone, with guns and remotely kills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, mtls2005 said:

 

~ Two-thirds are suicides. Some are accidental/negligent. The rest, homicides, ~ 12,000 give or take annually.

 

Languishing on Moscow Mitch's desk...

 

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/8?q={"search"%3A["HR8"]}&s=6&r=1

 

I'm old enough to remember when the NRA was pro gun control.

Proper screening would prevent some, but not all, suicidal and homicidal people from acquiring guns.  Harsh penalties for possessing a weapon while under the influence of drugs or alcohol would undoubtedly reduce the accident or "crime of passion" death rate. 

 

Mandatory training would also reduce the "accident" rate, especially if combined with penalties for mishandling of firearms. The excuse "I didn't think it was loaded" following a shooting accident should be taken as an admission of criminal negligence.

 

In short, there are lots of ways to make gun laws more rational without banning gun ownership.  However the NRA, gutless politicians, and a small minority of lunatic gun enthusiasts prevent any rationality on the issue.

[Tropposurfer]

except in the hands of police and the military, guns should not be held by anyone ... oh and maybe farmers in places where these are warranted. 

 

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, JCauto said:

Or stable people with assault rifles who have hatred in their hearts for others and who have been encouraged to believe the "others" are trying to take away everything they have.

 

And that could work both ways.

 

Think about how intelligence agencies influence people, try to destabilize other countries, develop false flag stories etc etc.

 

Now, if you were advocating stricter gun control wouldn't it be useful if there were some mass shootings, especially ones you could try to blame on the current POTUS and White Supremacists, racism etc etc.; and even more useful if that happened as your presidential candidates were engaged on a series of TV debates where the propaganda aspects could be maximized?

 

Now wait for all the left, liberals and Democrat supporters to say outrageous to suggest such a thing. There honest, ethical, moral politicians and their intelligence agency cronies would never do such a thing. Yet these same left supporters are quick to accuse others of exactly that, with no evidence. Like that prat O'Rourke who came across as a complete clown on TV.

[Baerboxer]

17 minutes ago, Tropposurfer said:

except in the hands of police and the military, guns should not be held by anyone ... oh and maybe farmers in places where these are warranted. 

 

 

And let's have democracy camps for anyone whose not got the correct political views too. We could call them Gulags, that's a nice name.

 

And let's hang all the drug dealers and users. 

[Scott]

Conspiracy post and off-topic posts have been reported and removed.  

 

[JUAinBKK]

9 hours ago, heybruce said:

The police response time was phenomenal, and still nine people were killed.  That's what happens when you give mentally unstable people access to assault rifles.

Or knives or home made bombs.

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, JUAinBKK said:

Or knives or home made bombs.

Bombs, yes, knives, no.

[mercman24]

at the press conference it was said this shooting is number 250, THIS YEAR <deleted> is going on in the US, guy killed his sister as well, why are they so quick to blame Trump, all the time, pathetic. and chance to get a dig at their president

[sawadee1947]

9 hours ago, Thechook said:

Mass shootings have always been a favorite pastime of American so you can't blame them on trump.  Blame them on the ease of buying guns

Absolutely correct. But as you can see, many Americans will not agree. 

You can't fix stupidity (voting for Trump, voting for guns) 

[Jingthing]

That's completely untrue. They only give alternative theories when it is WHITE PEOPLE who are doing the shooting up. Otherwise it's "terrorism".

These days it's mostly white shooters.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Jingthing]

Gun control is at best a band-aid solution. Will it help reduce this type of carnage? Definitely. Will it completely prevent it?  Absolutely not. It's incredibly naive to think that gun control laws will completely eliminate shootings. Consider the fact that the US spends billions of dollars each year in an effort to control illicit drugs. Even so, these same drugs can easily be bought anywhere in the country. With so many resources being brought to bear on limiting the availability of illicit drugs, the result is nowhere near 100% effective. I'm neither pro-gun or anti-gun, but I have no reason to believe that gun control laws will be effective. With newer technologies such as 3D printing and micro foundries, it'll be relatively simple to provide firearms to those that want them, regardless of any federal regulations.
 
The real issue here is that nobody seems to be interested in identifying and addressing the root causes of this kind of violence. Guns have been readily available of decades, yet these types of killings were extremely rare in past decades.  It would seem that over time, American society and culture have changed in a way that fosters this type of behavior. Many blame these incidents on mental illness, but if that's the case, then what's driving mentally ill people to commit these acts now?  While gun control might be a good start, what's needed to better address the problem is the identification of root causes with resources brought to bear on those causes. Unfortunately, problem solving techniques including common sense, thorough analysis and basic logic would most likely lead to conclusions that the vocal knee-jerk people on one end of the political spectrum don't want to hear because it's in conflict with their overall agenda.
Gun control may be a good first step, but then what? It seems that there's too much asking "what" (automatic weapons, high capacity magazines, etc) and not enough of asking "why". Without understanding the "why", the problem will never be solved.

Huh?
Nobody is talking about completely preventing it.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, DrDave said:

Gun control is at best a band-aid solution. Will it help reduce this type of carnage? Definitely. Will it completely prevent it?  Absolutely not. It's incredibly naive to think that gun control laws will completely eliminate shootings. Consider the fact that the US spends billions of dollars each year in an effort to control illicit drugs. Even so, these same drugs can easily be bought anywhere in the country. With so many resources being brought to bear on limiting the availability of illicit drugs, the result is nowhere near 100% effective. I'm neither pro-gun or anti-gun, but I have no reason to believe that gun control laws will be effective. With newer technologies such as 3D printing and micro foundries, it'll be relatively simple to provide firearms to those that want them, regardless of any federal regulations.

 

The real issue here is that nobody seems to be interested in identifying and addressing the root causes of this kind of violence. Guns have been readily available of decades, yet these types of killings were extremely rare in past decades.  It would seem that over time, American society and culture have changed in a way that fosters this type of behavior. Many blame these incidents on mental illness, but if that's the case, then what's driving mentally ill people to commit these acts now?  While gun control might be a good start, what's needed to better address the problem is the identification of root causes with resources brought to bear on those causes. Unfortunately, problem solving techniques including common sense, thorough analysis and basic logic would most likely lead to conclusions that the vocal knee-jerk people on one end of the political spectrum don't want to hear because it's in conflict with their overall agenda.

Gun control may be a good first step, but then what? It seems that there's too much asking "what" (automatic weapons, high capacity magazines, etc) and not enough of asking "why". Without understanding the "why", the problem will never be solved.

"Gun control is at best a band-aid solution. Will it help reduce this type of carnage? Definitely."

 

So your argument against implementing gun controls that you accept will definitely reduce this kind of carnage is?

[JHolmesJr]

Horrible tragedy.

Was amazed how quickly it became a political thing. Total disrespect to the victims shown by media and Dem

candidates by instantly turning this awful event into talking points to score against trump. It's incredulous to try and draw a straight line from his words to the loony actions of these nut jobs. 

 

I don't believe everything I see online but I have seen a mention that the shooter in El Paso was actually registered as a democrat...it was just a screenshot of his profile on one of those online directories...but if it is true, its significant.

 

Now dont go losing your heads....if you insist I produce that screenshot I will...just ask and I'll look for it again.

[simple1]

8 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

Horrible tragedy.

Was amazed how quickly it became a political thing. Total disrespect to the victims shown by media and Dem

candidates by instantly turning this awful event into talking points to score against trump. It's incredulous to try and draw a straight line from his words to the loony actions of these nut jobs. 

 

I don't believe everything I see online but I have seen a mention that the shooter in El Paso was actually registered as a democrat...it was just a screenshot of his profile on one of those online directories...but if it is true, its significant.

 

Now dont go losing your heads....if you insist I produce that screenshot I will...just ask and I'll look for it again.

So what if he were a democrat. His manifesto, released just before his mass murder event, incorporates core messaging from White Supremacist ideology i.e. right wing violent extremism

Edited August 5, 2019 by simple1

[usviphotography]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

So what if he were a democrat. His manifesto, released just before his mass murder event, incorporates core messaging from White Supremacist ideology i.e. right wing violent extremism

And the Dayton Shooter was an Antifa Sympathizer and supporter of violent left wing violent extremism. There were two shootings yesterday. One committed by a Right Winger and one by a Left Winger. This is the Dayton thread, which was done by a leftist. You are looking for the El Paso shooting thread, which was done by a right wing fury. 

 

Connor Betts social media history:

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts-twitter-politics-social-media/

[Jingthing]

20 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

And the Dayton Shooter was an Antifa Sympathizer and supporter of violent left wing violent extremism. There were two shootings yesterday. One committed by a Right Winger and one by a Left Winger. This is the Dayton thread, which was done by a leftist. You are looking for the El Paso shooting thread, which was done by a right wing fury. 

 

Connor Betts social media history:

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts-twitter-politics-social-media/

That's interesting.

But unlike the El Paso white supremacist terrorist, I don't see any kind of evidence (yet anyway) that Betts acted out for political reasons, meaning if he didn't, it's not terrorism. His sounds like a much more personal case. Killing his own sister in the context of a mass shooting of strangers. That's pretty much unheard of. Was there a political aspect to the bar he targeted? Unknown. Was it a coincidence or not that most of the victims were African Americans. Unknown but probably not intentional especially considering his leftist politics. The sister's partner also murdered, what was that about? Just because he was there or something else?

Overall it sounds like a weak or even non-existant case for labeling this as terrorism. But we'll see. 

 

Keep in mind not all mass shootings are about terrorism. Like the historic as far as number of victims Las Vegas one, there was never any evidence that it was politically motivated, thus not terrorism.

 

Generally in the U.S. the mass shootings that are terrorism are either Islamist or white nationalist in motivation. I'm not even aware of any such incident that has been labelled left wing motivated terrorism. However, before the right wingers freak out, if there have been, go ahead and name them,  and I'm certainly not ruling out that there could be such incidents.

 

But overall this is another diversion. The BIGGEST problem these days as far as mass shooting terrorist incidents in the USA are linked to WHITE NATIONALISM. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Jingthing

[JHolmesJr]

29 minutes ago, simple1 said:

So what if he were a democrat. His manifesto, released just before his mass murder event, incorporates core messaging from White Supremacist ideology i.e. right wing violent extremism

so what you believe 100% is that a democrat white person cannot ever be a while nationalist?

I have also read that the manifesto  in the El Paso incident (which I briefly skimmed over)...I did not see it as 100% confirmed by official investigators as his, or even something he posted on his social media.

Edited August 5, 2019 by JHolmesJr

[simple1]

12 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

And the Dayton Shooter was an Antifa Sympathizer and supporter of violent left wing violent extremism. There were two shootings yesterday. One committed by a Right Winger and one by a Left Winger. This is the Dayton thread, which was done by a leftist. You are looking for the El Paso shooting thread, which was done by a right wing fury. 

<snip>

My mistake. Of course evil comes from all forms of political extremism, though US law enforcement has identified currently violent extremism from White Supremacist ideology is the greater threat.

[simple1]

2 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

so what you believe 100% is that a democrat white person cannot ever be a while nationalist?

I have also read that the manifesto (which I briefly skimmed over)...I did not see it as 100% confirmed

by official investigators as his, or even something he posted on his social media.

Can you point to Democrats who express support / sympathy for violent White Nationalist / Supremacist ideology?

[JHolmesJr]

27 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

And the Dayton Shooter was an Antifa Sympathizer and supporter of violent left wing violent extremism. There were two shootings yesterday. One committed by a Right Winger and one by a Left Winger. This is the Dayton thread, which was done by a leftist. You are looking for the El Paso shooting thread, which was done by a right wing fury. 

 

Connor Betts social media history:

https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/connor-betts-twitter-politics-social-media/

 

If you're going to dismiss it as fake, up to you...but this is what I was referring to.

 

Edited August 5, 2019 by JHolmesJr

[usviphotography]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

My mistake. Of course evil comes from all forms of political extremism, though US law enforcement has identified currently violent extremism from White Supremacist ideology is the greater threat.

Left Wing Political Department of Government labeling their enemies the greater threat doesn't hold much water. Antifa is clearly the more active and violent group on a day to day basis. Indeed, there isn't even any comparable "group" on the right wing side. "Right Wing" violence tends to just be individual people that snap. The Left are the only ones who have a large, active, organized terror group operating currently. And there absolutely have been Left Wing Terror acts in the US recently. Attack on the GOP Congressional Baseball game, the firebomb attack on the ICE Facility last month, and obviously the numerous cases of Antifa beating people on the streets.  

[simple1]

5 minutes ago, usviphotography said:

Left Wing Political Department of Government labeling their enemies the greater threat doesn't hold much water. Antifa is clearly the more active and violent group on a day to day basis. Indeed, there isn't even any comparable "group" on the right wing side. "Right Wing" violence tends to just be individual people that snap. The Left are the only ones who have a large, active, organized terror group operating currently. And there absolutely have been Left Wing Terror acts in the US recently. Attack on the GOP Congressional Baseball game, the firebomb attack on the ICE Facility last month, and obviously the numerous cases of Antifa beating people on the streets.  

Some outlets have thought it worthy to equate the confrontational tactics of antifa to political violence on the far-right. But as the ADL has pointed out, "To date, there have been no Antifa related murders," yet "right-wing extremists" have " murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone."

 

https://www.salon.com/2019/07/23/ted-cruz-ignoring-surge-of-far-right-violence-introduces-bill-labeling-antifa-a-terrorist-group/

[marcusarelus]

14 hours ago, heybruce said:

The police response time was phenomenal, and still nine people were killed.  That's what happens when you give mentally unstable people access to assault rifles.

Good thing he didn't have a shotgun the kind they hunt ducks with.  Major damage.  

[usviphotography]

6 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Some outlets have thought it worthy to equate the confrontational tactics of antifa to political violence on the far-right. But as the ADL has pointed out, "To date, there have been no Antifa related murders," yet "right-wing extremists" have " murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone."

 

https://www.salon.com/2019/07/23/ted-cruz-ignoring-surge-of-far-right-violence-introduces-bill-labeling-antifa-a-terrorist-group/

Antifa just beat a gay journalist in the streets last week in an attack. I'd also point out that the Charlottesville riot, which left one person dead, was started by Antifa so to say they have no blood on their hands is absurd. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/portlands-antifa-impunity-11564348707

 

Moreover, Antifa is an organized political group. All major right wing groups and figures are expressly anti-violent. When violence happens it is from loners who snap. Not so with Antifa, which is organized and promotes violence. 

[bristolboy]

34 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

 

If you're going to dismiss it as fake, up to you...but this is what I was referring to.

 

Right, his political position sounds very representative of the Democratic party. And as usual, you don't link to the source of your nonsense.

Edited August 5, 2019 by bristolboy

[bristolboy]

On 8/5/2019 at 2:47 PM, usviphotography said:

Antifa just beat a gay journalist in the streets last week in an attack. I'd also point out that the Charlottesville riot, which left one person dead, was started by Antifa so to say they have no blood on their hands is absurd. 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/portlands-antifa-impunity-11564348707

 

Moreover, Antifa is an organized political group. All major right wing groups and figures are expressly anti-violent. When violence happens it is from loners who snap. Not so with Antifa, which is organized and promotes violence. 

Four “serial rioters” from California traveled to Charlottesville, Va., to incite rioting during last year’s deadly violence around a white supremacist rally, and they repeatedly attacked counterprotesters, resulting in serious injuries, federal law enforcement officials said on Tuesday in announcing charges against the men.

Members of a militant white-supremacist organization called the Rise Above Movement, the men arrived in town “with their hands taped and ready to do street battle,” said Thomas T. Cullen, the United States attorney for the Western District of Virginia. They punched, kicked, head-butted and pushed the counterprotesters, according to court papers, and were “among the most violent individuals present in Charlottesville.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/02/us/politics/charlottesville-california-riot-charges.html

 

The Proud Boys is a far-right neo-fascist^[9][10] organization which admits only men as members and promotes political violence.^{[2][11][12][13]} It is based in the United States and has a presence in Canada, Australia, and the United Kingdom.^[14][15] The group was started in 2016 by Vice Media co-founder and former commentator Gavin McInnes, taking its name from the song "Proud of Your Boy" from the Disney film Aladdin.^[16][17] 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proud_Boys

Edited August 6, 2019 by metisdead
Oversize font reset to normal. Please post using normal font size.