Not feeling welcome

[nakluapattaya]

6 minutes ago, uhuh said:

I just figured you must be taking about yourself. Whomelse?

You thought i was talking specificly about you. So u had to respond with that obvious sarcasm.

Too bad now we got you old drunk monger, or smelly backpacker, you are one of those.

[uhuh]

I didn't think you were taking specifically about me.

My point is that you insult Westerners as a group. 

I am part of this group.

So I feel insulted. 

 

We are not supposed to insult Thais as a group (you know,  there are old drunk Thai mongers, and there are Thai backpackers).

Why should I let it stand if you insult my group, Westerners as a whole?

 

And if you really - mistakenly - think most Westerners here are old drunk mongers or smelly backpackers, that makes me wonder what people do you socialize with?

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by uhuh

[nakluapattaya]

2 minutes ago, uhuh said:

I didn't think you were taking specifically about me.

My point is that you insult Westerners as a group. 

I am part of this group.

So I feel insulted. 

 

We are not supposed to insult Thais as a group (you know,  there are old drunk Thai mongers, and there are Thai backpackers).

Why should I let it stand if you insult my group, Westerners as a whole?

 

And if you really - mistakenly - think most Westerners here are old drunk mongers or smelly backpackers, that makes me wonder what people do you socialize with?

 

Yes i do insult; again "most" westerners in Thailand as a group. Feel free to be insulted if u belong to that specific group.

TBH i mostly socialise only with fellow countrymen, in my own country. In Thailand i have a social circle of locals. As i speak the language i dont need to socialise with that group mentioned earlier. Not much to discover or fun to be had with those. I dont care about sleeping in a sh*tty hostel with backpackers, or listen to old degenerates talk and complain about their favorite beer, bars, and prostitutes all the time, like theres nothing else.

[nakluapattaya]

[BestB]

2 hours ago, uhuh said:

I explicitly said prices are much higher here than they are in Western Europe "if you have to pay out of pocket there" (normally nobody has to pay out of pocket there,  but it does happen - foreigners without insurance,  people who have only private insurance for reimbursement later, people whith high deductibles, many reasons).

 

The actual prices most Europeans pay are much lower. 

 

Example: Pantoprazol in Germany bought without insurance, 11,78 Euro

Bought with insurance 5 Euro (these are the "subsidized" prices - actually,  they are not subsidized, they are paid for by social health insurance, not by taxes; fees for social health insurance are typically several hundreds EUR per month)

Pantoprazol as just paid to an upcountry private Thai Hospital: 2436 baht - more than 6 times the German "free market" price

 

Crestor in Germany without insurance: 82,09 euro,  with insurance 8,20 euro

Crestor as just paid in the same upcountry Thai Hospital 4760 baht

 

Plavix in Germany without insurance 39,95 euro,  with insurance 5 euro

Plavix  as just paid in the same upcountry Thai Hospital 3542 baht

 

BTW German pharmaceutical prices are expensive by international standards,  that's why i chose Germany as a comparison

 

 

Insurance is a scam as explained by SteveK: high premiums, forced contraction,  no value whatsoever because the insured sums are ridiculously low and everybody needs an additionally  "real" insurance (with coverage of millions of baht)

 

 

And I explicitly told you , because In your home country you get subsidised medical just like thai pay absolute minimal. What do you not understand about that?

 

since when high premiums became a scam?

Edited October 30, 2019 by BestB

[BestB]

2 hours ago, uhuh said:

Very much different from Switzerland (very easy - never seen Thai ladies with Swiss passport?), Norway,  Germany,  to name a few.

How is it different and how much did man had to pay for the Thai lady to become a citizen? Rest assured it was not free, did not take few weeks and was not with out a lawyer which also cost money 

[beautifulthailand99]

2 minutes ago, BestB said:

How is it different and how much did man had to pay for the Thai lady to become a citizen? Rest assured it was not free, did not take few weeks and was not with out a lawyer which also cost money 

There are quite a few my wife helps to run a European Thai Network and there were 3 or 4 who came on the England tour a couple of years ago. Needless to say they are all loaded having the European equivalent of the baht the Swiss Franc !

[richard_smith237]

5 hours ago, dimitriv said:

 

 

The insurance is a new requirement. The possibility that there is maybe a way around this is for me not so important. The knowledge that maybe tomorrow there will be something else without possibility to escape is what matters.

 

Let's talk about morals. Or lack of it.

 

Would it be right to send someone home after 20, 30 years, if he cannot prove that he has enough money to stay?  Living together with someone you are married to is a basic human right.

 

Would it be right to send someone home if he doesn't have 400k in the bank? After he lived here for 20 or 30 years, is married, and has children? 

 

It is a violation of human rights.

 

 

 

 

 

You can exercise your human rights and bring your wife back to your home country... 

In the UK you would have to prove a minimum income of (approx) £19000 per year, or greater than (approx) £65,000 savings...

If you can't meet this you can complain about the violation to your human rights... 

 

Or... you can stay in Thailand and meet the 400,000 Baht requirement. 

 

 

[englishoak]

6 hours ago, dimitriv said:

 

But is it right to change the rules for people already living in Thailand for a long time?  

 

Some people are staying for a long time, have a family, there life here. And than suddenly they change the rules making it difficult to stay.

 

Would it be right to send someone home after 20, 30 years, if he cannot prove that he has enough money to stay?  Living together with someone you are married to is a basic human right.

That is what bothers me most, my angst and reason for almost ( but not quite ) abandoning retiring to Thailand is the distinct possibility of being messed about later when I and my family require security and consistency in order to make long term plans...  We simply do not trust the Thai gov then, now or in the future.

 

Im just not prepared to invest in a place that is blatantly two faced and why we with regret made our future at least guaranteed to stay as a family elsewhere.

 

Of course its disgusting to separate families, especially those who made commitments 10 or 20 years ago, have all put in since then and are now being told get out,  goodbye if you cant provide a cash amount X now we want it, plus this and this when before it was nothing... its frankly despicable behaviour and have zero respect for those responsible. They will I hope be reborn as dogs in China....

[Gecko123]

The notion that the only people who perceive that attitudes towards foreigners are changing are just those struggling to meet stricter immigration rules and making face saving excuses is classic TVF echo chamber mythology. This started getting repeated here about half a year ago, and has gradually taken root as if it were fact.

 

When I read posts from people claiming that they have noticed absolutely no change in local attitudes towards them I am truly baffled. I can only surmise that they are either dealing with Thais on such a superficial (solely transactional) basis that attitudes whether good or bad are barely detectable, or their interactions with Thais are so buffered (the wife does all of the interface/immigration agents are used) that opportunities to evaluate attitudes are minimized, or they cannot communicate well enough in Thai or have not been here long enough to effectively evaluate any changes in attitudes. Whether you agree with this or not, it is easy to cite a whole slew of objective socio-political-economic changes which have likely contributed to perceptions that the environment has become less welcoming than in the past:

 

1. In one of his earliest addresses after taking over the government, Prayut not only talked about foreign criminal elements operating in Thailand, but how Thailand's sex industry was a blemish on the country's international reputation. This stigmatized the entire ex-pat community as potential criminals and sex tourists. It also stigmatized Thai women in the sex industry or in relationships with foreign men, which made entering into relationships with foreign men less socially acceptable.

 

2. The 2008 financial crisis, falling (sometimes negative) interest rates, drops in currency exchange rates, cuts and uncertainty about the reliability of entitlement benefit programs have made more foreigners more frugal and price sensitive and in turn shifted perceptions that Westerners are all flush with money.

 

3. Social media (such as TVF) have made Western men more aware of the potential for being hoodwinked by Thai women for financial gain. As a result, Western men are being more cautious about leaping into marriage, making investments in real estate, or making themselves vulnerable to financial exploitation such as opening joint bank accounts with their spouse, etc. Because it has become - on average - simply less lucrative to become involved with foreign men, not as many Thais see entering into a relationship with a foreign man as attractive of an option as in the past. Rising minimum wages and higher personal incomes, etc., have also narrowed the income gap between Thais and expat retirees. The internet has of course accelerated familiarity with the outside world with foreigners losing a degree of mystique in the process.

 

4. With the rise of big box retailers (Makro, Big C, Lotus, Tops, HomePro, Robinson, Central, 7-11), many farmer's markets and small retailers no longer see foreigners as an important part of their client base worth cultivating. Many foreigners tend to favor these retailers for reasons of convenience and familiarity. These big box retailers also offer stiff price competition and allow for easier price discovery which also makes overcharging by small retailers more difficult. The fact that some of these retailers have foreign (or at least non-local) ownership has also contributed to class and xenophobic resentments.

 

5. Because of Immigration's crackdown on foreigners working as English teachers this has eliminated a major source of community contact and goodwill generated by foreigners working in volunteer or low paid teaching positions.

 

6. For years now, the government, in tandem with the media, has been engaged in a campaign to highlight every possible crime, misdeed, or immigration violation no matter how trivial committed by a foreigner. This has definitely shaped and coloured Thai perceptions of foreigners. Police campaigns encouraging the public to report any misconduct of foreigners has encouraged a block-warden mentality in many Thais, resulting in a steady stream of police tips, Facebook and Instagram posts documenting every cultural faux-pas or minor misdeed committed by a foreigner.

 

7. There's also a generation of kids who have come of age who have either grown up in or had some exposure to a Thai mother/foreign father household and had a chance to observe up close both the upside and downside of such marriages. Let's just say that if there was any instability in the relationship (arguing, domestic violence, child abuse or neglect, alcoholism, drug abuse, divorce, abandonment or other dysfunction) this may have contributed to their perceptions that marriage to a foreign man might not be all it's cracked up to be. I also think that many Thai women who initially were very focused on the short-term benefits (financial security) of having an older foreign husband are now grappling with the realities of having to care for the older husband as he ages. As this reality sinks in, some of the enthusiasm she, her family, and friends may have once felt may have begun to wane. All of the publicity in the media about domestic violence (including murder and suicide) between Thai female - foreign male couples has also had a dampening effect on enthusiasm for marrying a foreigner.

 

8. In my opinion, and contrary to Thai cultural mythology, respect and reverence for the elderly has pretty much fallen off a cliff in the past ten years. I think this has to do with the disintegration of the Thai nuclear family, driven by urbanization. If rural kids are raised by elderly uncles and aunties while their parents leave for Bangkok in search of employment, that doesn't always result in a wholesome gratitude for the care they received. More often than not, the elderly relative is a disengaged guardian, sometimes themselves having been raised in absent parent households, who the kids quickly learn can be safely ignored and tuned-out. The attitude that older people are invisible and can be safely ignored of course spills over to attitudes about older expats as well.

 

9. There's also a school of thought that Thailand, like a number of other SE Asian countries, has fallen under the spell of China which appears to want to consolidate its sphere of influence in the region. Lured by promises of financing for large infrastructure projects and military aid, the Thai government may be deliberately becoming less welcoming of Western expats because they are seen as potential voices of Western liberalism. China also is suffering an imbalance of males to females, and may see SE Asia as providing a safety valve for this problem by eliminating the competition sex tourism presents. When you consider what is going on in neighboring countries vis-a-vis Chinese investment and consider the talk about possible decoupling of the world economy into different spheres, some of these immigration moves perceived as unfriendly towards Western foreigners start to make a little more sense.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Gecko123

[patongphil]

4 hours ago, uhuh said:

Very much different from Switzerland (very easy - never seen Thai ladies with Swiss passport?), Norway,  Germany,  to name a few.

I know a few Thai ladies with Norwegian passports. The reason why many don't get them is Norway does not allow dual citizenship so they have to relinquish their Thai citizenship and all that goes with it.

They come back to Thailand on tourist visas much the same as any other Norwegian.

[sillyfool]

not feeling welcome....then go home. so many whiners on this site it's becoming embarrassing.

 

thailand owes you nothing. the entitled sentiment shared by so many on here is laughable. 

 

 

[FarFlungFalang]

22 minutes ago, sillyfool said:

thailand owes you nothing. the entitled sentiment shared by so many on here is laughable.

I'll laugh to that!????

[spidermike007]

Just simply some racist officials, totally lacking in vision, who are acting fearful of outsiders, and showing their xenophobia. Hopefully, this too shall pass. 

[NoshowJones]

15 hours ago, fishtank said:

We are not wanted. Fact.

True, but our money is.

[NoshowJones]

14 hours ago, SteveK said:

If any country in the world toughened up their immigration and visa regulations, you would obviously expect some of the foreigners to leave, through either choice or necessity. What Thailand is doing now is slowly turning the screw until all but the richest ex-pats are left. They don't mind the wealthy ex-pats, or the 2-week millionaires, but everyone else is clearly not welcome. Forget your wife and family and forget your business in Thailand. They only want you here if you've got megabucks and don't mind sharing it around. Ex-pats eking out a living on under 1000 baht a day are definitely not wanted. 

 

Either come here as a tourist and blow your budget in two weeks. Or come here as a rich ex-pat and spend an absolute shed load of cash. If you're in-between these two groups you are SOL. Go to a much nicer country where you will be welcomed and not treated like a criminal for doing nothing more than coming too often (what a joke).

 

The entire country is mismanaged from the top down.

This is the post of the month. Could not agree more.

[NoshowJones]

14 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

 

in my case its instability - at 45 i am comfortable and settled and can pay/qualify for anything i need, but with now TWO major changes to long stay visas not being grand fathered in i cannot plan for any future changes that may come between now and me reaching 80 years old and have no faith that they will be enacted in the best interests of those they apply to - in other words it will always be thailand first, guests last.

 

as such feel it is safer to move my family to europe where we can all live together forever (my wife will obtain a passport) + i can work in any field i choose as a sole trader

 

maybe we will holiday in thailand from time to time but until the day i die i will never invest another satang here

 

 

"Guests last". Excuse me, but just who are the "guests"?

[NoshowJones]

13 hours ago, BestB said:

No it is not. Just because you do not like new requirements, it does not mean they are forcing you out.

But it means that's what they want.

[NoshowJones]

11 hours ago, sirineou said:

Thank you for that

I am not familiar with the process or interested, but the statement that you can't get permanent residency in Thailand is not correct.

I know I have read thread of posters wo have.

Permanent residency should be automatic if you are married, but the authorities should have the right at any time, to make sure that the marriage is not a farce.

[NanLaew]

14 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

14 hours ago, SteveK said:

If any country in the world toughened up their immigration and visa regulations, you would obviously expect some of the foreigners to leave, through either choice or necessity. What Thailand is doing now is slowly turning the screw until all but the richest ex-pats are left. They don't mind the wealthy ex-pats, or the 2-week millionaires, but everyone else is clearly not welcome. Forget your wife and family and forget your business in Thailand. They only want you here if you've got megabucks and don't mind sharing it around. Ex-pats eking out a living on under 1000 baht a day are definitely not wanted. 

 

Either come here as a tourist and blow your budget in two weeks. Or come here as a rich ex-pat and spend an absolute shed load of cash. If you're in-between these two groups you are SOL. Go to a much nicer country where you will be welcomed and not treated like a criminal for doing nothing more than coming too often (what a joke).

 

The entire country is mismanaged from the top down.

This is the post of the month. Could not agree more.

Hardly. People have been pitching their tents in the wrong camp sites for years.

 

The farangs that don't like Thailand's fledgling new business model (you know, the ones that will post "what business model?" pretty quickly here, replete with their favorite confused emoticons) are the same ones that frequently berate Thailand for being such a parochial, 'third world', banana republic backwater.

 

The way I see it, if you want to wallow in the past, please don't do it here and go find some other shallow pool of mediocrity to make yourself feel relevant.

 

Bangladesh Needs You!

[NoshowJones]

11 hours ago, nakluapattaya said:

Lol rules getting enforced, laws getting stricter. Sad for those wanting to stay long term. But its pretty normal, Thailand is not so desperate anymore to just want to let anyone in.

 

Personally i hate it, i wanna stay forever on tourist visas. But it makes sense. In my country u can only stay for 3 months as a tourist. Other long term options are either being married to a citizen or work. Kinda the same like Thailand tho, but my country also accept refugees. In my country most people dont like immigrants. So i think Thailand is still very tolerant. As most westerners are just drunk old guys coming for the rentgirls, or smelly backpackers.

"As most westerners are just drunk old guys". That is nothing but a load of nonsense.

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, possum1931 said:

Permanent residency should be automatic if you are married, but the authorities should have the right at any time, to make sure that the marriage is not a farce.

I agree, If you lived in the country for a reasonable length of time ( three years) and is married, all you should have to do is apply, provide evidence,  biometrics. and pay a reasonable processing fee.

[NanLaew]

11 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I agree, If you lived in the country for a reasonable length of time ( three years) and is married, all you should have to do is apply, provide evidence,  biometrics. and pay a reasonable processing fee.

Fifteen years minimum. Sorts out all those hapless, lubbed-up, lightweights with burned bridges first.

 

...and those that use the confused emoticon regularly.

Edited October 31, 2019 by NanLaew

[smutcakes]

11 hours ago, uhuh said:

I have been here a number of years and feel more and more not wanted. 

By officials and by ordinary people.

 

I don't have issues with immigration, but always filling out new forms and trips to CW every second month is not my idea of fun.

But if you like these things,  good for you

What visa are you on when you have to fill out forms every second month?

[sirineou]

3 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Fifteen years minimum. Sorts out all those hapless, lubbed-up, lightweights with burned bridges first.

Fifteen years will short out all the Old gizzards also ????

Unfortunately, I am one of them  

[NanLaew]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Fifteen years will short out all the Old gizzards also ????

Unfortunately, I am one of them  

We can be mates then? Result!

[uhuh]

8 hours ago, BestB said:

And I explicitly told you , because In your home country you get subsidised medical just like thai pay absolute minimal. What do you not understand about that?

 

since when high premiums became a scam?

I just said for the second time the prices i am talking about are not subsidized. 

Forget it.

[marqus12]

7 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

1. In one of his earliest addresses after taking over the government, Prayut not only talked about foreign criminal elements operating in Thailand, but how Thailand's sex industry was a blemish on the country's international reputation. This stigmatized the entire ex-pat community as potential criminals and sex tourists. It also stigmatized Thai women in the sex industry or in relationships with foreign men, which made entering into relationships with foreign men less socially acceptable

First what I heard in May 2014 (I don't remember which one of them said it)
"Too many farangs !"

 

7 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

9.There's also a school of thought that Thailand, like a number of other SE Asian countries, has fallen under the spell of China which appears to want to consolidate its sphere of influence in the region. Lured by promises of financing for large infrastructure projects and military aid, the Thai government may be deliberately becoming less welcoming of Western expats because they are seen as potential voices of Western liberalism. China also is suffering an imbalance of males to females, and may see SE Asia as providing a safety valve for this problem by eliminating the competition sex tourism presents. When you consider what is going on in neighboring countries vis-a-vis Chinese investment and consider the talk about possible decoupling of the world economy into different spheres, some of these immigration moves perceived as unfriendly towards Western foreigners start to make a little more sense

I agree with everything you wrote, especially with this one.

[uhuh]

20 minutes ago, smutcakes said:

What visa are you on when you have to fill out forms every second month?

Have you ever heard of TM 90, TM 30, TM 28? Plus I needed a certificate of residence,  that took 3 trips to CW (no, they didn't mail it) within 3 months. 

I like the market at CW, but the trips there are getting too frequent. 

[Bruntoid]

17 hours ago, CharlieH said:

In my opinion, alot of the issue is around the falling of some currencies coupled with the strong baht, it has devastated some incomes and many  I believe are hitting a financial crisis and out of pride or embarrassment, saving face, call it what you will, may be using the continual trials and changes in immigration criteria as the reason but perhaps its more one than the other, and the latter is more comfortable to blame or give as a reason, I suggest.

 

After all if you have the finances, and you have a family etc, there are always ways, and alternatives, those alternatives wont matter a squat if you dont have the finances/income anymore.

Spot on - there’s always a way here which is a plus. 
 

More than one way to skin a cat but griping about it won’t solve anything. 
 

Take responsibility