Unpaid Commission on a real estate deal

[Kay McDonnell]

As a legal agent with full work permit and up to date real estate company, i have just realised that a deal that will close this next week is in risk of the commission not being paid.

Does anyone have any experience of this?

[ChasingTheSun]

I have no experience as an agent. I have only been a buyer or seller.

 

Normally you should have an agency contract signed beforehand by the seller right?

 

If yes, then you can take them to court for breach of contract.

 

If no signed agreement beforehand, the  you likely have no claim to a commission.

Edited December 15, 2019 by ChasingTheSun

[Kay McDonnell]

Ok well even if you have everything and go to court, it takes years

I am looking for a more instant answer

I am trying to stop the deal at the land department

[xylophone]

23 minutes ago, Kay McDonnell said:

Ok well even if you have everything and go to court, it takes years

I am looking for a more instant answer

I am trying to stop the deal at the land department

I seem to recall you from a few years ago here and you were in the real estate business then and we did chat on a couple of occasions!

Being as experienced as you are, how did you manage to get into this type of situation? 

 

And please be careful that you don't <deleted> off the wrong people, because as you know it can sometimes be a bit like the "Wild West" out there. 

 

 

[blackcab]

58 minutes ago, Kay McDonnell said:

I am trying to stop the deal at the land department

 

You have no legal right to do this, and if you do so and the sale falls through at the last minute then there is every chance both you yourself and the directors of your company would be liable to both the buyer and the seller for the full value of the loss of sale, as set out in Section 420 of the Civil and Commercial Code:

 

"A person who, wilfully or negligently, unlawfully injures the life, body, health, liberty, property or any right of another person, is said to commit a wrongful act and is bound to make compensation therefore."

 

As you work for a real estate company and you have a work permit then your principal will have signed an agency contract with you. If your principal does not perform then your remedy is to take the matter to Court, not act in an unlawful manner.

[FritsSikkink]

33 minutes ago, Kay McDonnell said:

Ok well even if you have everything and go to court, it takes years

I am looking for a more instant answer

I am trying to stop the deal at the land department

You should know, if you are a professional, that you can't do this.

[ChasingTheSun]

38 minutes ago, Kay McDonnell said:

Ok well even if you have everything and go to court, it takes years

I am looking for a more instant answer

I am trying to stop the deal at the land department

If you have signed agreement you probably have a simple court case in your favor. 
 

if the amount of the commission is very significant, it may be worthwhile to pursue it in court, even if it takes time.
 

Or try to settle with the seller first, without the hassle/expenses of litigation for both of you. A strongly worded letter from your lawyer may convince the seller to pay-up a negotiated amount to end the matter quickly.

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Kay McDonnell said:

As a legal agent with full work permit and up to date real estate company, i have just realised that a deal that will close this next week is in risk of the commission not being paid.

Does anyone have any experience of this?

Some answers to some questions may assist other in answering your questions.

 

1) Are you the selling agent or is the owner selling the property privately while still under an agency agreement of which I imagine you have signed and dated.

 

2) If you sold the property, where is the 10% (deposit) assuming it's 10% being held, in your trust account or the lawyers, if its the lawyers wouldn't you just provide them with a letter and a copy of the agency for your commission to be paid upon settlement ?

 

3) If your vendor has sold the property privately while under an agency agreement, you would be best to let it slide, unless you want to wait years to go to court and of course it could go either way, i.e. if the vendor can provide evidence that during your agency you didn't perform, however if you can prove you introduced the buyer then its and open and shut case. 

[ChasingTheSun]

15 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Some answers to some questions may assist other in answering your questions.

 

1) Are you the selling agent or is the owner selling the property privately while still under an agency agreement of which I imagine you have signed and dated.

 

2) If you sold the property, where is the 10% (deposit) assuming it's 10% being held, in your trust account or the lawyers, if its the lawyers wouldn't you just provide them with a letter and a copy of the agency for your commission to be paid upon settlement ?

 

3) If your vendor has sold the property privately while under an agency agreement, you would be best to let it slide, unless you want to wait years to go to court and of course it could go either way, i.e. if the vendor can provide evidence that during your agency you didn't perform, however if you can prove you introduced the buyer then its and open and shut case. 

IMHO, I would agree that unless it is written into a signed agreement that the agency is exclusive and the exclusivity covers direct-buyers, the seller is not obliged to pay a commission unless the buyer was introduced(documented/provable) to the seller FIRST by the agency noted in the agreement.

Edited December 15, 2019 by ChasingTheSun

[impulse]

I am trying to stop the deal at the land department.

 

Regardless of the rest of the details, wouldn't it be more prudent to wait until the deal goes through and the commission isn't (or is) paid before taking any action?

 

Stop the deal, and there is zero chance of the commission being paid, and a lot of downside potential for sabotaging a deal.  Let it go through and there is some chance of getting paid, and zero downside risk of being sued (or worse) for interference.

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by impulse

[Kay McDonnell]

Well thank you for your answers.  I feel that if a client does not pay commission, it is theft!

If any of you went to work on a job that took you a very long time and you did not get paid, what would you do?

We are talking about 800,000 bht

Why should the owner get paid for his property and the agent who worked hard, not get paid

[stevenl]

3 hours ago, Kay McDonnell said:

Well thank you for your answers.  I feel that if a client does not pay commission, it is theft!

If any of you went to work on a job that took you a very long time and you did not get paid, what would you do?

We are talking about 800,000 bht

Why should the owner get paid for his property and the agent who worked hard, not get paid

I would go to the labour department or any other official authority like the courts.

Do you have a well documented case?

[Kay McDonnell]

15 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

You have no legal right to do this, and if you do so and the sale falls through at the last minute then there is every chance both you yourself and the directors of your company would be liable to both the buyer and the seller for the full value of the loss of sale, as set out in Section 420 of the Civil and Commercial Code:

 

"A person who, wilfully or negligently, unlawfully injures the life, body, health, liberty, property or any right of another person, is said to commit a wrongful act and is bound to make compensation therefore."

 

As you work for a real estate company and you have a work permit then your principal will have signed an agency contract with you. If your principal does not perform then your remedy is to take the matter to Court, not act in an unlawful manner.

That works two ways

[Kay McDonnell]

11 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I would go to the labour department or any other official authority like the courts.

Do you have a well documented case?

Cannot understand what the labour department could possibly do

[Peterw42]

OP, maybe you could explain why you are not holding the deposit for the sale. Usually this would be where your commission would come from. If someone else took and is holding the deposit, has a signed sales contract etc, wouldn't that mean they sold the property.

 

Unless you signed an exclusive agent agreement with the seller, the person who took the deposit, got a signature on a sales contract etc, is the person who sold the property.

 

[stevenl]

2 hours ago, Kay McDonnell said:

Cannot understand what the labour department could possibly do

No idea either, I just answered this question you posed : If any of you went to work on a job that took you a very long time and you did not get paid, what would you do? :.

 

You come on here, seemingly for help. There are some good suggestions, but more information is needed for a complete answer. You don't give that information, so until you do you won't get your answer. I have the feeling though you don't want to do that since you know the answer already but don't like it.

[Old Croc]

2 hours ago, Kay McDonnell said:

17 hours ago, blackcab said:

As you work for a real estate company and you have a work permit then your principal will have signed an agency contract with you. If your principal does not perform then your remedy is to take the matter to Court, not act in an unlawful manner.

That works two ways

The OP is the principal.

[blackcab]

26 minutes ago, Old Croc said:

The OP is the principal.

 

No, the OP is the agent. The OP acts for and on behalf of either the buyer or the seller, who is her Principal.

[xylophone]

18 hours ago, blackcab said:

As you work for a real estate company and you have a work permit then your principal will have signed an agency contract with you. If your principal does not perform then your remedy is to take the matter to Court, not act in an unlawful manner.

As I understand it, the OP is the principal of the company (as Old Croc has said) and it seems as if her question is regarding the non-payment of commission from the seller of a house, for whom she has apparently acted.

 

I have sold houses here, and have friends who have sold houses, and also know people in the real estate business, and sometimes, just sometimes the seller does not realise that the agreement they have signed is "an exclusive" with a particular agent/agency, and whilst that is in force, they cannot accept offers from other parties, which does raise their hackles somewhat especially if they have found their own buyer.

 

Whether it's fair or not is a moot point, however it does suggest that sellers should read the small print and fully understand what they have signed.

 

This may be an entirely different case, but I'm just stating feedback from other parties and my experience.

[Just Weird]

19 hours ago, Kay McDonnell said:

As a legal agent with full work permit and up to date real estate company, i have just realised that a deal that will close this next week is in risk of the commission not being paid.

Does anyone have any experience of this?

As an estate agent, 99% of the time you get your commission with no problems for doing next to nothing but, occasionally, buyers and sellers will, understandably, try to cut you out and complete the deal without your "assistance", it just goes with the territory, suck it up.   

 

Instead of cutting off your nose to spite your face by illegally screwing up the deal at the LTD just forget it and look forward to your next easy commission.

[Kay McDonnell]

17 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

Some answers to some questions may assist other in answering your questions.

 

1) Are you the selling agent or is the owner selling the property privately while still under an agency agreement of which I imagine you have signed and dated.

 

2) If you sold the property, where is the 10% (deposit) assuming it's 10% being held, in your trust account or the lawyers, if its the lawyers wouldn't you just provide them with a letter and a copy of the agency for your commission to be paid upon settlement ?

 

3) If your vendor has sold the property privately while under an agency agreement, you would be best to let it slide, unless you want to wait years to go to court and of course it could go either way, i.e. if the vendor can provide evidence that during your agency you didn't perform, however if you can prove you introduced the buyer then its and open and shut case. 

I am the director of my own company

There was a reservation fee which i was paid 300000 then i got 50% of the commission and now there is 792,000 outstanding

I believe it is an open and shut case.  However. I do not have his forwarding address but he resides still in Thailand and it takes so long, costs so much and you do not get your costs back in thailand

[Kay McDonnell]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

No idea either, I just answered this question you posed : If any of you went to work on a job that took you a very long time and you did not get paid, what would you do? :.

 

You come on here, seemingly for help. There are some good suggestions, but more information is needed for a complete answer. You don't give that information, so until you do you won't get your answer. I have the feeling though you don't want to do that since you know the answer already but don't like it.

I dont mind to give all the information to the people that are interested.  I am only saying back that i cannot see what the labour department could do?  I am employed by myself as a director of my company

[Kay McDonnell]

I sold this two years ago and got 50% of my commission then.  The problem came later when the buyer did not have the balance of 5 mtb.  He paid 29 mTB but not the balance.

Between the buyer and seller they agreed that buyer could move in regardless.  this was 18 months ago.  After that the owner sacked me as an agent, after the buyer moved in.

I told him that you cannot just sack a agent after they did the sale.

The buyer now has the 5mtb and the seller is not paying

I was upset with him 18 months ago when the buyer  moved in and he did not pay me the balance then/.

If buyer do private mortgage deals on the property and it could have been 30 years for all i know, and no commission

[stevenl]

36 minutes ago, Kay McDonnell said:

I dont mind to give all the information to the people that are interested.  I am only saying back that i cannot see what the labour department could do?  I am employed by myself as a director of my company

You ask a question, I answer that question and now you don't understand the answer. I'll try one more time. You said "If any of you went to work on a job that took you a very long time and you did not get paid, what would you do?", to which I said: "I would go to the labour department.,"

 

Regarding your situation, it is very clear, all you an do is go to court.

[ChasingTheSun]

1 hour ago, Kay McDonnell said:

I sold this two years ago and got 50% of my commission then.  The problem came later when the buyer did not have the balance of 5 mtb.  He paid 29 mTB but not the balance.

Between the buyer and seller they agreed that buyer could move in regardless.  this was 18 months ago.  After that the owner sacked me as an agent, after the buyer moved in.

I told him that you cannot just sack a agent after they did the sale.

The buyer now has the 5mtb and the seller is not paying

I was upset with him 18 months ago when the buyer  moved in and he did not pay me the balance then/.

If buyer do private mortgage deals on the property and it could have been 30 years for all i know, and no commission

Sounds like you may have a case.

 

Try the strongly worded letter/warning from your lawyer, with perhaps an offer to settle on a lessor negotiated amount to reduce everyones burden should it regrettably need to go to court.

[scorecard]

20 hours ago, ChasingTheSun said:

If you have signed agreement you probably have a simple court case in your favor. 
 

if the amount of the commission is very significant, it may be worthwhile to pursue it in court, even if it takes time.
 

Or try to settle with the seller first, without the hassle/expenses of litigation for both of you. A strongly worded letter from your lawyer may convince the seller to pay-up a negotiated amount to end the matter quickly.

What's it got to do with the land department / land titles office (LTO).

 

Seller signs documents indictating wanting to sell and seller requests LTO to change ownership on the chanut to the buyer, (also basically indicating the seller has been paid by the buyer).

 

Buyer indicates exact name of new owner.

 

All done. 

 

Can't see where, officially, the agent is involved in the transfer of ownership.

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, Kay McDonnell said:

I sold this two years ago and got 50% of my commission then.  The problem came later when the buyer did not have the balance of 5 mtb.  He paid 29 mTB but not the balance.

Between the buyer and seller they agreed that buyer could move in regardless.  this was 18 months ago.  After that the owner sacked me as an agent, after the buyer moved in.

I told him that you cannot just sack a agent after they did the sale.

The buyer now has the 5mtb and the seller is not paying

I was upset with him 18 months ago when the buyer  moved in and he did not pay me the balance then/.

If buyer do private mortgage deals on the property and it could have been 30 years for all i know, and no commission

If the buyer now has the 5 million baht, then could you not approach him and show him the agreement you have, with the monies outstanding and get him to deduct that money owed to you from the 5 million baht which is payable to the previous owner?

 

The other thing is that the current occupier/owner is sure to have the contact address or number of the seller and you may be able to contact him through this medium, and as others have suggested send him a strongly worded letter from a lawyer, looking for full payment or perhaps a settlement of some description.

[Kay McDonnell]

Well i just went to my lawyer and he said this is not a difficult case and he believes it will be an easy win.

Thank you for your comments.

I was so stressed as i did not have their forwarding address in Bangkok so i was worried that i could not find them to serve notice, but my lawyer said that is easy through immigration and land department

Guess the long process begins

[Kay McDonnell]

Just now, xylophone said:

If the buyer now has the 5 million baht, then could you not approach him and show him the agreement you have, with the monies outstanding and get him to deduct that money owed to you from the 5 million baht which is payable to the previous owner?

 

The other thing is that the current occupier/owner is sure to have the contact address or number of the seller and you may be able to contact him through this medium, and as others have suggested send him a strongly worded letter from a lawyer, looking for full payment or perhaps a settlement of some description.

The buyer does not want to get involved with this as he wants his sale to go through.  I understand that so i have to just get on with it in the court, if it gets that far.  I will have to wait until Thursday after the deal is done.  How <deleted> some people can be.

[ThaiBunny]

LoS = Land of Scams