"Complaining" about Thai immigration issues while still loving Thailand

[scottiddled]

Every day, numerous folks visit these forums and express frustration with the TM-30, embassy/consulate visa experiences, experiences with IOs at the border or immigration offices, work permit issues, and a variety of other bureaucratic encounters in Thailand. For the most part, these are people who've chosen to spend a significant period of time in Thailand (often settling indefinitely and/or starting families). At minimum, they've chosen to come to Thailand out of many possible destinations. In short, they want to be here, so their criticism should be viewed in context. To them, Thailand isn't the revenue service or the Department of Motor Vehicles. Thailand represents a choice.

 

At the same time, there are forum regulars who seem to defend everything Thai authorities do and/or criticize every critic (either by pointing out what they've done wrong or questioning their honesty). One offshoot of this counter-critique is the toxic "if you don't like it, get out" mentality. This is one of the most despicable tropes in contemporary life. Sadly, it crosses continents and cultures.

 

 

Here is an example from a recent thread on digital nomads:

Quote

16 hours ago, Nanaplaza666 said:

Seems like it went right over your head as well calling them corrupt bastards complaining and whininig , if your not happy with the way things work in the country your let in to , just leave to wherever you came from as it seems that everything is better there . Some people sound like refugees that flee to a country ,get free money, aducation and wellfare and a roof over their heads and then complain about the way they are treated . If your not happy just leave !!! 

How about this, friends: we all have the right to not be happy with aspects of our lives. Being content with life--or content enough not to want to make a change--does not require one to be happy with 100% of that life. Furthermore, we have the right to express those feelings, even if you consider it "complaining and whininig" [sic]. This false dichotomy that you must either accept everything about your life circumstances or "get out" (of a country, a job, a relationship, etc.) is complete and utter garbage.

 

I'll take it a step further. The sheep who lack the critical thinking skills and/or initiative to voice their objections are a big part of the problem. If there's something wrong with your country (or whatever) and you're drinking too much of the Kool Aid to notice it, or too lazy to speak up, or think being a good citizen means never expressing any dissent, you're useless. There are plenty of pithy famous quotes about these "silent" folks being even worse than the oppressors. And while I don't know that I subscribe to that belief, the responsibility of the "silent majority" of sheep shouldn't be understated. Problems exist not just because of the people who cause them, but because of the people who acquiesce to them. Just because a problem doesn't affect you directly or make your situation intolerable doesn't mean you shouldn't be silent. And even worse are people like this character who actively oppose dissent with the "like it or get out" trope.

 

Nobody's perfect. Every day, Thai immigration and labor authorities deal with thousands of people--and a significant portion of them haven't checked all the boxes (or haven't done so perfectly). There's plenty of room for improvement in all our lives. But let's knock it off with the trump card of "if you don't like it, get out," as if the choices in life are perfect happiness or a life of wandering around seeking perfection.

Edited January 14, 2020 by ubonjoe
off topic inflammatory video removed

[Puchaiyank]

Here...here...spot on...good post ole chap!

[ubonjoe]

Two offtopic posts have been removed.

Since this topic is meant be a general discussion not not directly visa related  it has been moved to here.

[Caldera]

It's my understanding that most regular Thais despise their officials as well, so a foreigner who is critical of them is actually right in line with a sentiment shared by regular Thais.

 

However, Thais and Westerners tend to act quite differently on that. While many of us choose to criticize, even if we know that it leads nowhere, that's rare in Thailand for a variety of reasons. That I understand. What I really don't get are the Western apologists.

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, Caldera said:

That I understand. What I really don't get are the Western apologists.

It's a form of denial, "If I love Thailand, Thailand will love me and treat me well."

You get similar denial from the posters who post, "I'm fat and old, but have found a much younger attractive woman who loves me for myself."

 

Entirely understandable, they don't like the world they live in, so create a fantasy life where everything is perfect. Challenging their fantasy will get you an immediate aggressive rebuttal, probably including personal insults.

Edited January 14, 2020 by BritManToo

[473geo]

I think rules and regulations are part of life, people tend to become accustomed to them in their birth country and get on with making the best of it.

The constant moaning is rather tedious, and the advice to look elsewhere should not be taken as rude but rather a thought provoking comment to perhaps concentrate on the positive rather than the negative.

[Matzzon]

You seem to be hung up on the phrase "If you do not like it. Get Out!". Sad to hear, because that is such a useful phrase to be used on many comments in this forum. For example on all the constant complainers.

 

The phrase is not despicable in any kind of way. It´s probably not used to tell somebody to leave directly, but more as making a point that the complainer should just go back in the line and hide.

 

It´s just to understand this. When you choose to reside long term or settle down in Thailand, then you do not take your western values with you. That is a part of what you chose to leave. When all the expats in Thailand understand that, then we can all live in harmony.

[ChouDoufu]

complaining, if not taken to excess, is a healthy form of venting, letting off steam.

 

i'd worry more about the foreigners that never complain, keep it all bottled up inside.

 

sure, complaining is visible.  others deal with the stress and frustration with nice, quiet alcoholism or drug abuse, which is apparently more acceptable.

 

those are the ones you one day see wandering down the street, talking to themselves, cause nobody else understands.

[Matzzon]

1 hour ago, ChouDoufu said:

i'd worry more about the foreigners that never complain, keep it all bottled up inside.

Have you ever thought about that there might be nothing to complain about, and that most of the people doing that just need something to waste their otherwise very boring life on?

[OneMoreFarang]

Most of us who live in Thailand decided to live here. Some of us checked out many details of Thailand before we moved. Other just stayed after a holiday.

I think first of all we should not live in Thailand if we don't like the country, the people, the weather, the overall situation. I.e. some people complain that it's hot all the time. My answer is: accept it or move to another place.

With the weather it is obvious that the weather won't change because some farangs don't like it. But there are many other things which won't change. Accept it.

And another thing what I think we should accept is that Thais won't change because some farangs don't like it. That's like anywhere else in this world. In which countries to the people who make the rules care about the few foreigners who moved to that country?

And then there is the big difference between trying to change something and moaning about things. Some time ago I made a computer program which printed information into official Thai forms. Some of these forms had horrible formatting like a lot of space for a house number and very little space for a name. I pointed that out to the person I knew and asked them if maybe they want to think about changing these forms. They didn't want to change them. Ok, accepted. And I don't moan about it. Case closed.

 

It seems here on Thai Visa are many people who moan about lots of things. Do they really want to change things? How often do we have posts like: I don't like xyz, which government agency should I contact to change that? Do we have posts like that?

It seems TV has lots of posts like: I spend hours trying to do this and that. Those stupid people don't understand what I want. Why is it not the way I am used to from back home? Why don't those Thais treat me like I am someone important? I think I am important. And why don't they all speak perfectly English in the Thai government? I explain it to them in English and they don't understand. Why don't they learn English? ...

 

I don't apologize everything here and lots of things need improvement. But moaning won't improve it.

 

And IHMO if people are not happy here then it would be great if they look for another place. Likely they will also be unhappy in that new place because they are just people who like to moan. But at least after they moved to Kazakhstan or Timbuktu they can moan in the local forums over there.

[Matzzon]

13 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And IHMO if people are not happy here then it would be great if they look for another place. Likely they will also be unhappy in that new place because they are just people who like to moan. But at least after they moved to Kazakhstan or Timbuktu they can moan in the local forums over there.

Priceless comment! A pure revelation for moaners, and a hallelujah moment for me! Thanks! You managed to move them to the perfect places, where they can live out the rest of their miserable lifes.

[Gweiloman]

I do occasionally moan and complain about some of the bureaucratic inefficiencies here but on the whole, I still prefer staying here over my home country. 
What I don’t understand are those posters who insist that there are better places for them and yet they continue to stay here. Also, posters like Puchaiyank and Destiny who have left but still troll the forum. 

[Matzzon]

4 minutes ago, Gweiloman said:

Also, posters like Puchaiyank and Destiny who have left but still troll the forum.

It was probably so boring where they went too, that they have to spend all their time complaining about the things no longer existing in their life. It can also be a call for help, because they´ve realized their mistake.

[Gecko123]

 

Having spent the better part of last year researching repatriation to the US, I have a fresh appreciation for what it would require financially, i.e., $40,000/year at a minimum. It is increasingly my belief that the vast majority of people who moved to Thailand 7+ years ago would struggle financially to repatriate in today's financial climate. This has been greatly exacerbated by quantitative easing in the West which has caused housing costs to be artificially inflated. If not for quantitative easing, I strongly believe repatriation would be much easier.

 

Thus, for many repatriation to their home country is no longer a realistic option. For them, listening to people complain about problems in Thailand, or listening to people who have managed to repatriate talking excitedly about their new life, is like a prisoner serving a life sentence having to listen to a fellow inmate complaining about the cafeteria food or listening to a recently paroled cell mate going on and on about how great things are on the outside. They know what they are hearing is true, but it's unbearable to listen to because they are powerless to do anything about it. For them, it's like psychological torture. People go through cycles and evolve. Trying to silence people who you don't agree with is futile. Try learning from other people's perspectives is what I'd recommend.

[Nyezhov]

50 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I don't apologize everything here and lots of things need improvement. But moaning won't improve it.

 

And IHMO if people are not happy here then it would be great if they look for another place. Likely they will also be unhappy in that new place because they are just people who like to moan. But at least after they moved to Kazakhstan or Timbuktu they can moan in the local forums over there.

Germs of Truth are found everywhere.

[473geo]

10 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

 

Having spent the better part of last year researching repatriation to the US, I have a fresh appreciation for what it would require financially, i.e., $40,000/year at a minimum. It is increasingly my belief that the vast majority of people who moved to Thailand 7+ years ago would struggle financially to repatriate in today's financial climate. This has been greatly exacerbated by quantitative easing in the West which has caused housing costs to be artificially inflated. If not for quantitative easing, I strongly believe repatriation would be much easier.

 

Thus, for many repatriation to their home country is no longer a realistic option. For them, listening to people complain about problems in Thailand, or listening to people who have managed to repatriate talking excitedly about their new life, is like a prisoner serving a life sentence having to listen to a fellow inmate complaining about the cafeteria food or listening to a recently paroled cell mate going on and on about how great things are on the outside. They know what they are hearing is true, but it's unbearable to listen to because they are powerless to do anything about it. For them, it's like psychological torture. People go through cycles and evolve. Trying to silence people who you don't agree with is futile. Try learning from other people's perspectives is what I'd recommend.

Trying to make out people who don't moan are trapped is a bit silly

 

How about the non moaners take Thailand in their stride, warts and all, and just concentrate on having an enjoyable life

 

[seajae]

there are always those that will just want to complain about everything, those that claim everything in Thailand is perfect and those that are realistic and point out where thais go wrong, all is just the nature of the beast. I have lived here now for some time and really enjoy being here, more so than living in Australia, to be honest I  hope to remain here for years to come but that doesnt stop me from pointing out what I see that is wrong or needs improvement. We are all entitled to our own opinions, those that let it get the better of them  and cant handle being told they are wrong are a different matter, letting something that is written in here get a poster angry enough to start abusing others and telling them to leave isnt the best thing to do and shows that these posters are just not happy. I love Thailand, I love being here with my wife and being able to do virtually what ever I want within reason, I realize that to live here I have to accept  a lot of things that are imbedded into thai society whether I like it or not and at times I have no hesitation to come in here and say so, this means I have also been told those magic words "if you dont like it leave" a few times, getting upset about it gets you no where, I just smile,  flip the bird and have a chuckle to myself, life is meant to be enjoyed, why let others get you down because of their own problems

[Gecko123]

22 minutes ago, 473geo said:

Trying to make out people who don't moan are trapped is a bit silly

 

How about the non moaners take Thailand in their stride, warts and all, and just concentrate on having an enjoyable life

 

Please read my post again. I didn't say, "people who don't moan are trapped here." I said, 'people who are trapped here often don't like to listen to moaning, (even if they know what is being said is true), because, other than to put up with the status quo, they really have few other options open to them.' Big difference.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Gecko123

[Nyezhov]

21 minutes ago, 473geo said:

How about the non moaners take Thailand in their stride, warts and all, and just concentrate on having an enjoyable life

Raises hand...Me, me, me!

 

[mike787]

Well written.  Be part of the solution NOT the problem for those individuals who respond with simply saying get out.  Not helpful.  Rather what does help is if these people can provide answer or directions that explain how they make their immigration process so easy.  

[OneMoreFarang]

20 minutes ago, mike787 said:

Well written.  Be part of the solution NOT the problem for those individuals who respond with simply saying get out.  Not helpful.  Rather what does help is if these people can provide answer or directions that explain how they make their immigration process so easy.  

In principle I agree with you. And I am sure some people are happy to read i.e. how to make the immigration process easy. And they will follow the advice.

 

But it seems here are also many people who don't really want an answer. You could tell them exactly do this and that and they still wouldn't do it. Because they want to complain and are not interested in a solution. And maybe some of them realize that this is what they are but others have this "if only this and that would be different then..."

[OneMoreFarang]

I wonder how many people here are willing to listen to people in real life who complain all the time.

Obviously I also speak sometimes to friends and associates who complain that i.e. the day before they wasted a full day at immigration. Ok, fair enough. I understand the frustration.

But if I meet these people i.e. a week later and they still moan about that then I will definitely avoid them in the future. Sometimes it's good to vent some air. Do, that, done. And then return to a hopefully happy life.

It's no fun to see people who constantly complain and at least I avoid them.

 

[Lacessit]

There's plenty to moan about in Thailand; however IMO much of it is self-inflicted.

 

To me, Immigration is a matter of being organized properly with the required documents, then turning up at the right time, and realizing there are probably a couple of hundred people who want the same. Take a book with you, or music.

 

Traffic is a matter of defensive driving. Accept most Thai drivers are abject incompetents, and tailor the driving strategy accordingly.

 

Food is not rocket science. Avoid empty restaurants and go to the ones that are packed with Thais. They don't enjoy food poisoning any more than we do. Cook your own food if you need a break from Thai chilli.

 

Yes, many Thai women look on us as an ATM. So what? I don't care provided I get value in return.

 

For me, Thailand is much more exciting than my home country. I'd die of boredom there.

[scottiddled]

46 minutes ago, mike787 said:

Well written.  Be part of the solution NOT the problem for those individuals who respond with simply saying get out.  Not helpful.  Rather what does help is if these people can provide answer or directions that explain how they make their immigration process so easy.  

Right back at you.

 

To the posters who point out that some complainers are too negative, I don't disagree with you. OneMoreFarang cites the hypothetical of someone still complaining about their trip to immigration a week later. That point is well taken.

 

Maybe it's my inherent Western view of the public sphere, but I happen to believe that putting discourse into the air has an impact--even if it's just a drop in a very large bucket. Venting has its place. More thoughtful complaining has its place. Providing assistance to others (or asking for help) has its place. And yes, as OneMoreFarang points out, actively proposing solutions and/or approaching those in power with ideas has value, too. All of this can contribute to a public sphere in which the Powers That Be can see areas for improvement and possible policy solutions. It's not "oh the ungrateful farangs are whining again," it's "there are these specific problems and even we can see solutions to them."

 

As mike787 notes, just hitting people with "get out" is unhelpful. I'd go further: it feeds the problem. It provides cover to ineffective policies and ineffectual officials. "See, even some of the good farangs get it. We should ignore the complaints and carry on with business as usual." The "get out" crowd winds up functioning like Uncle Tom, creating a false image that changes aren't needed.

 

Heck, it's even a form of gaslighting, when you think about it.

[BritManToo]

1 minute ago, scottiddled said:

To the posters who point out that some complainers are too negative, I don't disagree with you. OneMoreFarang cites the hypothetical of someone still complaining about their trip to immigration a week later. That point is well taken.

I had an almost perfect trip to immigration last week at HCMC Consulate.

No queues, no waiting, no financials, hardly any paperwork, then no queues at immigration when I flew back to Chiang Mai, and every desk was manned and vacant.

 

Cannabis $10/bag, beer $1 for a 450ml bottle, Indian curry with Naan bread for under $5.

The only downside was I had a bit of a cold which marred the drinking and smoking a little bit.

[mike787]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

In principle I agree with you. And I am sure some people are happy to read i.e. how to make the immigration process easy. And they will follow the advice.

 

But it seems here are also many people who don't really want an answer. You could tell them exactly do this and that and they still wouldn't do it. Because they want to complain and are not interested in a solution. And maybe some of them realize that this is what they are but others have this "if only this and that would be different then..."

I agree!!!  I was told by some longtime expats here, they don't bother with TVF because of the negativity.  

[scottiddled]

On 1/14/2020 at 6:41 PM, mike787 said:

I agree!!!  I was told by some longtime expats here, they don't bother with TVF because of the negativity.  

Agreed. That's one of the reasons. I've heard another reason repeatedly mentioned, but it can't be written here. ???? 

[zyphodb]

On 1/14/2020 at 11:25 AM, BritManToo said:

It's a form of denial, "If I love Thailand, Thailand will love me and treat me well."

You get similar denial from the posters who post, "I'm fat and old, but have found a much younger attractive woman who loves me for myself."

 

Entirely understandable, they don't like the world they live in, so create a fantasy life where everything is perfect. Challenging their fantasy will get you an immediate aggressive rebuttal, probably including personal insults.

Yep, I think the psycological term for this is cognative dissonance...

[gamini]

On 1/14/2020 at 2:53 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

Most of us who live in Thailand decided to live here. Some of us checked out many details of Thailand before we moved. Other just stayed after a holiday.

I think first of all we should not live in Thailand if we don't like the country, the people, the weather, the overall situation. I.e. some people complain that it's hot all the time. My answer is: accept it or move to another place.

With the weather it is obvious that the weather won't change because some farangs don't like it. But there are many other things which won't change. Accept it.

And another thing what I think we should accept is that Thais won't change because some farangs don't like it. That's like anywhere else in this world. In which countries to the people who make the rules care about the few foreigners who moved to that country?

And then there is the big difference between trying to change something and moaning about things. Some time ago I made a computer program which printed information into official Thai forms. Some of these forms had horrible formatting like a lot of space for a house number and very little space for a name. I pointed that out to the person I knew and asked them if maybe they want to think about changing these forms. They didn't want to change them. Ok, accepted. And I don't moan about it. Case closed.

 

It seems here on Thai Visa are many people who moan about lots of things. Do they really want to change things? How often do we have posts like: I don't like xyz, which government agency should I contact to change that? Do we have posts like that?

It seems TV has lots of posts like: I spend hours trying to do this and that. Those stupid people don't understand what I want. Why is it not the way I am used to from back home? Why don't those Thais treat me like I am someone important? I think I am important. And why don't they all speak perfectly English in the Thai government? I explain it to them in English and they don't understand. Why don't they learn English? ...

 

I don't apologize everything here and lots of things need improvement. But moaning won't improve it.

 

And IHMO if people are not happy here then it would be great if they look for another place. Likely they will also be unhappy in that new place because they are just people who like to moan. But at least after they moved to Kazakhstan or Timbuktu they can moan in the local forums over there.

I think most of the moaning here is about immigration. They don't have the financial requirements to stay here. They are not genuine tourists and they have been using all sorts of loopholes in the past to continue staying here. They now complain  all the time because immigration is closing the loopholes and enforcing the law. Many of them don't want to go back to their own country because they're so ugly and unattractive that they could never find a decent looking girl where they come from. And most of them have no idea about the situation in other countries because they never been anywhere else except Thailand.

 

[Puchaiyank]

9 minutes ago, stropper said:

look you have left , no money no honey , why do not you just <deleted> off, stop whinging and get on with your <deleted> life now in the u s of a, i am so sick of you, i have no problems living in thailand at all, but then maybe i have some money to support myself as obvisioly you have not, bloody pom whingers now we have got a yank who tops the list!

You would miss me...????