[EMERGENCY] Deported? Blacklisted? Help!

[Guest]

Hello.

 

I am a French citizen, disabled in a wheelchair and about to be sent to the IDC and processed for deportation with potentially a blacklist from entering Thailand from what I understand. I do need serious advice.

 

I am currently sitting in the cell of the police station in the Issan region, about a year ago my ex girlfriend has accused me of stealing her travel documents such as ID card, passport, work permit etc (which I will admit in this thread, I did).

 

About half a year later when I returned to Thailand, I was allowed in with a visa on arrival with a French passport with no issues whatsoever, I even added a 30 days extension at the local immigration office for 1900 bahts, everything was fine.

 

When those 30 days ran out I was arrested at the border during a visa run to Laos and was forcibly accompanied by the Immigration police to the Issan region where she complained.

 

Due to it being relatively late around 5PM I was not able to ask for bail as there were no judge’s available at the court at the time, I was sent for one full day to the REAL local jail, where I spent an entire night and day only to be taken back to the court the next day. (I believe this bit is important because they used that timeframe to take several photos of me, scan my fingerprints and add me to the DOC Department of Corruption database).

 

Upon the next day at the court we asked for bail which was accepted and we had to pay 100.000 baht.

 

For the next 8 months no issues whatsoever, we were summoned a couple of times to court and everything went smooth and nicely, every 3 months we would renew the “criminal visa”.

 

Fast forward to yesterday morning, the case has ran it’s course, the judge gave his final verdict which is as follows:

 

Since it is a minor offense, it is my first offense in Thailand and due to my health condition, the judge sentenced me 2 years of probation or a suspended sentence (I’m not sure what the difference is).

 

I had to compensate my ex wife of 5000 baht and pay the court 29,000 baht fine and that was it!

 

 I clearly asked the judge whether I was blacklisted from either leaving or re-entering Thailand in the future? He replied negative to both our questions and we happily left the court thinking it was over.

 

On the way out I was awaited by 2 immigration officers who took my passport and informed me my criminal visa had been revoked since it was a visa that was valid only during the trial, now that the trial is over and the verdict is done, the visa is automatically cancelled so to speak.

 

They informed me that I am now illegal in Thailand and would be takeb to the IDC in Bangkok waiting for due process and until I can afford my own flight ticket back to France.

 

Now the other problem I have with this is that according to the immigration, yes the case is over but the judge didn’t mention that the “ban” that prevents me from leaving the country has been lifted either yet, so I am not allowed to leave yet until the judge issues a “lifting” of the ban and until I can afford a flight back to France with my own money.

 

This can indeed take a lengthy while.

 

In the meantime the immigration insisted on sending me yesterday to the IDC in Bangkok until both aforementioned requirements have been met, 1) being the judge lifting the outbound travel ban out of the country and 2) me having the funds to acquire said outward flight ticket.

 

Now the problem I have with this is, after having read so many threads and heard so many horror stories about how though the IDC can be compared to a regular provincial jail, I wonder how hard will it be on me considering I am a double amputee in a wheelchair?

 

Other question is, from what I’ve read here left and right, it would appear that if you ever had either probation or a suspended sentence then you are automatically added to the blacklist database from the immigration even if the judge said he wouldn’t put you on a blacklist in his verdict? How accurate is this statement? Am I currently about to be added to the blacklist?

 

I have been remarried since and have a 4 months old baby with the new Thai wife. As you can guess, being deported and blacklisted from Thailand would be devastating to us.

 

After discussing what my options were with the lawyer (a cheap Thai lawyer who doesn’t even understand the concept of blacklists) he suggested that since the verdict was actually pretty much in my favor we should let it to rest, “suck up” the few forthcoming days or weeks at the IDC then come back fresh into Thailand with a Non-O at a later time.

 

However in my medical condition I am frightened to death about the horror stories I have heard about the IDC.

I am currently sitting in a police station cell with my phone, unlimited internet but less than 10% battery and don’t know what to do.

 

In the meantime I have been in touch with a Bangkok law firm who assured me what the immigration office is doing (cancelling my visa and forcibly sending me to the IDC) is fraudulent at best because according to that law firm, by Thai law when a verdict has been reached both parties the plaintiff and the defendant have a 30 days window to make an appeal at the court.

 

Therefore he suggested that I make an appeal today at the court to get the case reviewed all over again. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Guest

[scubascuba3]

Sounds like you need to leave then come back that's all, with a visa or visa exempt

[elviajero]

39 minutes ago, tcp7 said:

In the meantime I have been in touch with a Bangkok law firm who assured me what the immigration office is doing (cancelling my visa and forcibly sending me to the IDC) is fraudulent at best because according to that law firm, by Thai law when a verdict has been reached both parties the plaintiff and the defendant have a 30 days window to make an appeal at the court.

Immigration have every right to revoke your permit to stay as the trial is over. They would only have re-instate it if you appeal. So unless you appeal you will be sent to the IDC and deported.

 

Whether or not you get ‘blacklisted’ is down to immigration. I would doubt you will be for such a minor crime. But if you are they should advise you in writing before/when you’re deported.

[BritTim]

One problem should be easy to solve. Since effectively your bail has been revoked, you should have it returned. It should be the first job of your lawyer to ensure this. Once you have that money, you can use it to buy your one-way ticket on Air France.

 

As I understand it, because no actual jail sentence was imposed, blacklisting is not automatic. The police involved in the case can decide whether or not they want to recommend blacklisting. Their recommendation is almost always followed.

 

EDIT: Have you discussed your situation with the consular officials from your embassy? They may be able to offer some advice to supplement what is written in this thread.

Edited January 30, 2020 by BritTim

[lamyai3]

6 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Immigration have every right to revoke your permit to stay as the trial is over. They would only have re-instate it if you appeal. So unless you appeal you will be sent to the IDC and deported.

Wouldn't they allow a brief period in which to leave to leave the country? The situation described in the OP is absurd, effectively rendering anyone who gets acquitted guilty of another crime immediately. 

[Salerno]

19 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

The situation described in the OP is absurd, effectively rendering anyone who gets acquitted guilty of another crime immediately. 

He wasn't acquitted.

[ukrules]

3 minutes ago, Salerno said:

He wasn't acquitted.

Same situation if found guilty of a minor offense after a lengthy period on the 'court case pending' visa extensions.

 

Lets say after a few months on this visa you then got a small fine, you would then be hauled off to IDC - not good!

[ubonjoe]

Some inflammatory posts and replies to them have been removed.

 

It seems to be a overaction by immigration. Canceling his extension for litigation is a bit over the top. They should of at least given you 7 days to leave the country.

I suggest you have your lawyer get involved immediately.

[lamyai3]

1 hour ago, Salerno said:

He wasn't acquitted.

He certainly wasn't guilty of wilful overstay. Are you suggesting that having committed one crime and completed the legal process, he should then be held guilty of another that was completely out of his control?

[Salerno]

2 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

Are you suggesting that having committed one crime and completed the legal process, he should then be held guilty of another that was completely out of his control?

No, I was just correcting an error in your post.

[lamyai3]

1 minute ago, Salerno said:

No, I was just correcting an error in your post.

No error in my post. Whether acquitted or charged, the point stands, once processed by the legal system a person should be allowed time to leave the country following the cancellation of their special visa arrangements due to trial. Your comments here suggest that you see extrajudicial punishment as acceptable. 

[Salerno]

1 minute ago, lamyai3 said:

Your comments here suggest that you see extrajudicial punishment as acceptable. 

 

14 minutes ago, Salerno said:

No, I was just correcting an error in your post.

 

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, tcp7 said:

Other question is, from what I’ve read here left and right, it would appear that if you ever had either probation or a suspended sentence then you are automatically added to the blacklist database from the immigration even if the judge said he wouldn’t put you on a blacklist in his verdict? How accurate is this statement? Am I currently about to be added to the blacklist?

Not accurate at all.

It appears to be entirely up to the immigration officer dealing with your case.

There is no consistency at all, with the deportations.

 

Seems to me, if immigration want you to go, they should give you 7 days to leave the country.

Unfortunately for us, many Thai immigration officials appear to hate white men.

 

Appeal seems a good idea.

Maybe leave while your appeal is underway.

Edited January 31, 2020 by BritManToo

[sirocco]

Helo

Eh! yes, that is what you should do, inquire at your Embassy which will direct you to the consular agency closest to your home.
Explain to them, basically, what is happening to you, perhaps they have someone on site who can visit you.
In addition, the Embassy has a list of lawyers available to you.
I hope you had the good reaction to register with the French register abroad, upon arriving in Thailand.

[ubonr1971]

Get an attorney involved asap and open your wallet. pay them off. ask the attorney to say that you would like to settle this matter indirectly and that you have a family now and want to stay for your kid...

Edited January 31, 2020 by ubonr1971

[justin case]

my ex stole 300.000 baht while married, tried to report at police station and they said: not interested

[timewilltell]

Whether he was aquitted or not aquitted seems irrelevant if immigration are arresting a person immediately a trial is over.

 

Quite a few people are charged with criminal offences regardless of fact and Thai courts routinely just accept these cases. 
 

As soon as the case is accepted into the court system you are forced onto a 'court proceedings' visa by immigration rules. Despite the wording of the law it appears that 'court visas' are only processed if the foreigner is the defendant but not if he is the accuser. Anyway I am off point.

 

So you can be charged, forced off your normal visa and on to the heinously inconvenient court visa and then arrested even if acquitted. 

 

According to this account you do not even have the rest of the day to rush to the border and get the hell out but instead arrested and stuck in IDC. I was not aware that visas are timed to the minute in such cases.

 

I hesitate to ask how ridiculous this is but see so many utterly ridiculous regulations, quasi regulations, official interpretations and bull in this country that the question is barely worth repeating.

 

This guy needs to get a better lawyer as the first one clearly is not up to speed on the right answers. It is a shame that the Embassies don't give a care in cases like this and more generally to scream merry hell about abuses to their citizens by laws that force people into the wrong.

[timewilltell]

8 hours ago, ukrules said:

Same situation if found guilty of a minor offense after a lengthy period on the 'court case pending' visa extensions.

 

Lets say after a few months on this visa you then got a small fine, you would then be hauled off to IDC - not good!

It doesn't matter whether he was aquitted or not - according to the OP immigration were waiting and arrested him immediately because the case was finished and his court proceedings visa immediately invalidated. 

 

It is quite absurd.

[Thaidream]

It is my understanding that Thai Immigration monitors all court proceeding regarding foreigners.  If the foreigner is convicted- Immigration automatically process the person for removal from the country. 

 

Since your case is finished- they can legally terminate your stay  I do believe there is some wiggle room in which you can speak with the IDC people and ask them point blank if you are being blacklisted. It is possible to 'negotiate' an outcome if speaking with the right person for removal. 

 

It is imperative that a trusted Thai person be in on every conversation- possibly your current wife.  If possible  an experience lawyer that handles foreiner cases would be best.  If you wife is the negotiator- she needs to be skillful  in asking for some empathy and use the correct Thai prhases and wai the right people.

 

IMO if there is no blacklist- you could leave and return immediatly.  I do know of an acquaintance who did  just that.

 

You could also appeal- but remember the appeals court can also increase any punishment as well as acquit or lessen punishment.  

 

I hope for the best outcome for you/

[timewilltell]

6 hours ago, Thaidream said:

It is my understanding that Thai Immigration monitors all court proceeding regarding foreigners.  If the foreigner is convicted- Immigration automatically process the person for removal from the country. 

 

Since your case is finished- they can legally terminate your stay  I do believe there is some wiggle room in which you can speak with the IDC people and ask them point blank if you are being blacklisted. It is possible to 'negotiate' an outcome if speaking with the right person for removal. 

 

It is imperative that a trusted Thai person be in on every conversation- possibly your current wife.  If possible  an experience lawyer that handles foreiner cases would be best.  If you wife is the negotiator- she needs to be skillful  in asking for some empathy and use the correct Thai prhases and wai the right people.

 

IMO if there is no blacklist- you could leave and return immediatly.  I do know of an acquaintance who did  just that.

 

You could also appeal- but remember the appeals court can also increase any punishment as well as acquit or lessen punishment.  

 

I hope for the best outcome for you/

I just cannot comprehend how a person can be arrested for overstay on a day in which he had a visa.

 

If you are on a court visa - who issues the order preventing you leaving the country - court or immigration? The courts seize your passport to prevent you leaving and immigration, so I understand it, force you onto the 3 month visa nonsense until the court process finishes. 

 

The OP is saying the court has to issue an order rescinding any prohibition by the court on leaving and they will probably not do that until the case is finished which requires an application to close the case as far as I know.

 

You see I keep saying as far as I know because no one seems to really know the law. I do know some cases are closed by formal application. I don;t know when you get your bail money back but do know it takes up to two weeks for the court to return your money. Who knows the real law becasue even if you read the translated law (or have a Thai read the text and translate it) the words do not actually mean what they say - I have several examples.

 

And this is why people get into trouble because it is all down to the &*^)%s who victimise foreigners by twisiting interpretations, misadvising through ignorance or malice and the general fact that you are at the mercy of the police who are hardly the whitest of white and easily persuaded to certain courses of action. 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Maestro
Deleted part of the post that was in reply to a removed post.

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, timewilltell said:

I don;t know when you get your bail money back but do know it takes up to two weeks for the court to return your money.

My former gf, was arrested for illegal gambling (playing dominoes for 10bht/game).

I paid her bail of 10k, the next day she was fined 5K and the court handed me the remaining 5k bail back as she left the court.

Edited January 31, 2020 by BritManToo

[timendres]

This rough handling by immigration makes me wonder if the ex has some connections.

[thaibreaker]

This guy was not arrested for overstay, as suggested above. He was taken to a cell (and transported to IDC) to make sure he leaves the country, the moment after his visa was not longer valid. 

 

If he gets a ban, it will certainly not be for overstaying. The days he is in prison do not count in that matter. 

 

I doubt he will be blacklisted, but then again you never know. If he does, it will be for the crime he committed.

Edited January 31, 2020 by thaibreaker

[natway09]

My sympathies on your situation but  taking a PP & ID card that belongs to someone else 

 could possibly be considered as theft.

I am not sure if getting a visa in France would be possible while you are under a suspended sentence or probation

[moonhiker]

45 minutes ago, timewilltell said:

It is a shame that the Embassies don't give a care in cases like this and more generally to scream merry hell about abuses to their citizens by laws that force people into the wrong.

I'm glad my tax money is not spent on defending reckless people doing crazy stuff in shady/corrupt countries... ???? 

[Orton Rd]

11 minutes ago, timendres said:

This rough handling by immigration makes me wonder if the ex has some connections.

She had a work permit that he stole so another foreigner

[SteveK]

1 hour ago, justin case said:

my ex stole 300.000 baht while married, tried to report at police station and they said: not interested

How did she steal 300k? Either you had 300k lying around for her to take or she had access to your bank account, in either case that was very stupid of you.

[FritsSikkink]

"the judge sentenced me 2 years of probation or a suspended sentence (I’m not sure what the difference is)."

Probation: if you get in trouble during the 2 years the suspended sentence will not be suspended anymore but active.

What was the suspended sentence?

 

[Thaidream]

41 minutes ago, timewilltell said:

I just cannot comprehend how a person can be arrested for overstay on a day in which he had a visa.

 

If you are on a court visa - who issues the order preventing you leaving the country - court or immigration? The courts seize your passport to prevent you leaving and immigration, so I understand it, force you onto the 3 month visa nonsense until the court process finishes. 

He wouldn't be  arrested for overstay-  and I am not qjuite sure he is  being charged with anything except being processed to leave the country.

 

I am ceretain that when a court case ends- the extension of stay ends and it appears that Immigration waits at the court and then takes jurisdiction and detains the person for processing. I believe the court actualy rules on whether a person can leave the jurisdiction.   I have never heard of  the court having to  waive the do not leave ruling. I was under the impression that once the judge makes the ruling- if a Thai person is acquitted they are free to go about their business but if guilty the prison system takes over.

 

For foreigners-  I believe much depends on what is negotiated.  However, the standard I have seen is  leave Thailand and then come back if able.

 

The strange thing to me about Thailand is that either the police or the Court can  provide or deny bail. In the Western system a bail hearing is held by the court and either granted or denied.  In addition, in Thailand  either the defendent or the Prosecutor can appeal the case all the way to the Thai Supreme Court.

 

Only a skilled Thai lawyer can maneuver within the systems I believe there is a lot of interface between Lawyer; Prosecutor and Judge. Since there is no jury- IMO much depends upon the charge; and the persons involved.

 

In the many decades of being in Thailand- the whole legal system remains an enigma and one in which I never want to be involved.

 

 

[Just Weird]

10 hours ago, lamyai3 said:

Wouldn't they allow a brief period in which to leave to leave the country? The situation described in the OP is absurd, effectively rendering anyone who gets acquitted guilty of another crime immediately. 

He wasn't acquitted!