Ventilators are killing people with C19

[Guderian]

An interesting article, if this is correct then it seems that the medics are treating patients incorrectly. Also interesting is that he claims C19 doesn't cause pneumonia, instead it's something more like high-altitude oxygen starvation. I haven't seen that said before. Well worth a read, but as they conclude, even if he's right, how do you get the medical establishment to change tack when it's going so fast in the wrong direction?

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8230775/Is-proof-live-saving-ventilators-actually-deathtraps.html

 

 

[Moonlover]

I usually scoff when I see 'Daily Mail', but not this time. Having been a SCUBA diver for many years, I understand the breathing apparatus very well. This article makes complete sense to me.

[Greg O]

Yes it's known as Hypoxia caused by reduced 02 partial pressure such as flying in an unpressurized airplane or high altitude sickness that mountain climbers may experience. The treatment requires immediate descent to lower altitude and administering supplemental oxygen. Either by demand or pressure demand.  Thats not what a ventilator does. Ventilation requires the patient to be Intubated (a delicate process requiring sedation and careful monitoring) by trained staff as the patient is on life support.  Not a condition you want to be in for sure ...

[AussieBob18]

What? The 'experts' are wrong??!!  What else have the 'covid19 experts' got wrong too??

[Moonlover]

15 minutes ago, Greg O said:

Yes it's known as Hypoxia caused by reduced 02 partial pressure such as flying in an unpressurized airplane or high altitude sickness that mountain climbers may experience. The treatment requires immediate descent to lower altitude and administering supplemental oxygen. Either by demand or pressure demand.  Thats not what a ventilator does. Ventilation requires the patient to be Intubated (a delicate process requiring sedation and careful monitoring) by trained staff as the patient is on life support.  Not a condition you want to be in for sure ...

It serves as a timely reminder to me to make sure that my 'advance directive' is readily available. No Covid cases close to the village yet, but you never know.

[DrTuner]

There has been a lot of critique about overuse of ventilators. It's the go-to for doctors when O2 saturation in blood falls.

 

There was a very interesting artile in medium, proposing the virus attacks the red cells, pulling out the iron ion, but unfortunately the author called the Chinese spade a spade and Medium removed it. It pretty neatly gave a theory that it's not ARDS at all and also gave an explanation why anti-malarial drugs might have an effect. 

 

It's still available at Internet Archives, but unfortunately I lost the link. Help?

 

Here's more of along the same lines ( I do not like that website though ) https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/must-read-research-reveals-that-covid-19-attacks-hemoglobin-in-red-blood-cells,-rendering-it-incapable-of-transporting-oxygen--current-medical-protoco

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by DrTuner

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Guderian said:

medics are treating patients incorrectly

 

1 hour ago, Guderian said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk

No more questions. 

[gargamon]

Hmmm....

 

https://time.com/5820556/ventilators-covid-19/

 

https://www.propublica.org/article/ventilators-arent-going-to-cure-covid-19-heres-what-they-can-do

 

https://www.france24.com/en/20200415-doctors-think-ventilators-might-harm-some-covid-19-patients

 

 

[mauGR1]

I think there is a thread running with the same article, anyway, those ventilators look suspicious.

I read 2 weeks ago an interview with an Italian doctor, he said that covid patients treated with ventilators have an 80% mortality.

[tonray]

57 minutes ago, mauGR1 said:

I think there is a thread running with the same article, anyway, those ventilators look suspicious.

I read 2 weeks ago an interview with an Italian doctor, he said that covid patients treated with ventilators have an 80% mortality.

That's simply because you are near critical if they deem it necessary to put you on a ventilator. Intubation and sedation are not done unless a person is undergoing major surgery with paralysis from anesthesia or you are pretty much in critical condition

[mauGR1]

4 minutes ago, tonray said:

That's simply because you are near critical if they deem it necessary to put you on a ventilator. Intubation and sedation are not done unless a person is undergoing major surgery with paralysis from anesthesia or you are pretty much in critical condition

Ok, but it doesn't seem quite an effective treatment to me.

The survival rate at 20%, and possibly permanently damaged lungs, well, it seems close to "therapeutic obstinacy".

[Greg O]

Alot of good info folks. And yes don't check that box that allows the hospital to automatically place you on a ventilator " But it's very difficult to educate your Thai family in those sort of details as they rarely question Doctors or authority. 

[partington]

2 hours ago, DrTuner said:

 

 

Here's more of along the same lines ( I do not like that website though ) https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/must-read-research-reveals-that-covid-19-attacks-hemoglobin-in-red-blood-cells,-rendering-it-incapable-of-transporting-oxygen--current-medical-protoco

 

 

The study referred to on that website is pretty much demolished in a later addition-showing why peer review is always necessary before any study can be given credence.

 

In short the paper is entirely theoretical, being based on no physical evidence in the real world at all. It uses computer modelling to try to guess the structure of some Sars Cov-2 proteins (modelled by a system that is not considered to be the best currently available, merely the easiest to use); then modelling of possible interactions between these theoretical structures and heme groups in red cells. This modelling relies on apparently completely faulty analysis of the functional similarity that would allow the interaction to take place.

 

Finally the work is invalidated by the authors choosing as stable the molecular interactions requiring the highest energy to form, when chemically the most stable structures would be those requiring least energy.

 

So this is an entirely on-paper theoretical hypothesis, based on faulty premises all the way through.

[gk10002000]

ventilators are not even mentioned on the NJ or NY news stations any more whereas two weeks ago they were clamoring for thousands of them, enacting Defense Production Acts, etc,  Just goes to show how either they are confused, or over reacted or who knows what

[DrTuner]

38 minutes ago, partington said:

The study referred to on that website is pretty much demolished in a later addition-showing why peer review is always necessary before any study can be given credence.

The medium article did have some interesting assumptions that were supported by the bilateral shadowing in the CT scans and changes in blood panels, though. I'll keep my eyes peeled, it's an interesting theory. But that's all it is, a theory.

[evadgib]

This rebuttal from HMG caught my eye this morning. I assume this is the right page in which to post it?

 

Response to FT article and Twitter thread by Peter Foster

[KC 71]

You can sign a ‘do not resuscitate’ form now to save time ! 

[sirineou]

All short of theories and opinions. Who is to know what is wrong and what is right.

anyone who wants to take a chance on their life and the life of their love ones is welcome to the theories. 

The only proven defence against the virus is Isolation.

If you can, stay home, read a book,  bake, tend your garden. talk to your wife etc. 

Stay safe a few more weeks  until they sort this thing out,  How hard is it to be lazy for a couple of week . fight the impulse to so go out. Stay safe.

Don't risk your life on theories. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by sirineou

[rvaviator]

Last week I believe UK canceled orders for basic ventilators from one company as more advanced ventilators was needed.  Would be interesting to understand how many different types there are and what the difference is between them.

[steevjee]

8 minutes ago, sirineou said:

All short of theories and opinions. Who is to know what is wrong and what is right.

anyone who wants to take a chance on their life and the life of their love ones is welcome to the theories. 

The only proven defence against the virus is Isolation.

If you can, stay home, read a book,  bake, tend your garden. talk to your wife etc. 

Stay safe a few more weeks  until they sort this thing out,  How hard is it to be lazy for a couple of week . fight the impulse to so go out and stay safe.

Don't risk your life on theories. 

Yes 100% this is the ultimate defence, bunker down, if you don’t put your head up you won’t cop a bullet.

[partington]

3 hours ago, Carsten007 said:

Hmm, this article explains it and makes sense. Explains the Chloroquine/Zinc success and offers a cure (Vitamin C orally, not iv).

 

https://www.townsendletter.com/article/online-covid-19-ards-cell-free-hemoglobin-ascorbic-acid-connection/

 

Never forget: All chemicals mentioned here are cheap, tried and tested since decades.

Pharma is not interested.

The media, being the trumpets of governments/Pharmaceutical industries, will not publish or investigate any of these.

 

Vitamin C is not a cure: this site is rubbish. The one reference to vitamin C use in Covid-19 is not a scientific paper but a bloody blog, and a blog from a website where the authors are peddling alternative (integrative -ha!) therapies for every disease.

 

Here's the so-called author of the whole article (the use of the term "quantum biology" is the surest sign imaginable of a quack useless article):

Doris Loh is an independent researcher and writer specializing in the investigation of familiar and innovative health topics using unique perspectives in traditional and quantum biology. Her training as a classical pianist allows her the freedom to explore concepts and theories with a curiosity that often results in distinctive conclusions. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by partington

[lamyai3]

On 4/18/2020 at 5:32 PM, tonray said:

That's simply because you are near critical if they deem it necessary to put you on a ventilator. Intubation and sedation are not done unless a person is undergoing major surgery with paralysis from anesthesia or you are pretty much in critical condition

Older studies indicate a much higher rate of survival (close to 70%) on a general sampling of patients. 

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/194560

[jimmybcool]

On 4/18/2020 at 1:24 AM, Greg O said:

Yes it's known as Hypoxia caused by reduced 02 partial pressure such as flying in an unpressurized airplane or high altitude sickness that mountain climbers may experience. The treatment requires immediate descent to lower altitude and administering supplemental oxygen. Either by demand or pressure demand.  Thats not what a ventilator does. Ventilation requires the patient to be Intubated (a delicate process requiring sedation and careful monitoring) by trained staff as the patient is on life support.  Not a condition you want to be in for sure ...

Having been intubated I agree with the concept it is not something you want to have.  I was not aware of it happening (yeah I was physically there but induced coma) but when I awoke my throat was a mess and I thought I had lost my singing voice for good.  Yeah for the smart alecs I've been told I can carry a tune.  LOL.  

 

I'd like to think doctors are using intubation for the right reasons and the high mortality rate is due to the fact people put on a ventilator are probably going to die with or without it.

 

[sucit]

Yes, it certainly is not a proven treatment at all. Nothing is. 

 

Doctors are fighting in the dark. Not discrediting them, but this is what is going on. 

[rabas]

On 4/18/2020 at 6:38 PM, partington said:

The study referred to on that website is pretty much demolished in a later addition-showing why peer review is always necessary before any study can be given credence.

 

In short the paper is entirely theoretical, being based on no physical evidence in the real world at all. It uses computer modelling to try to guess the structure of some Sars Cov-2 proteins (modelled by a system that is not considered to be the best currently available, merely the easiest to use); then modelling of possible interactions between these theoretical structures and heme groups in red cells. This modelling relies on apparently completely faulty analysis of the functional similarity that would allow the interaction to take place.

 

Finally the work is invalidated by the authors choosing as stable the molecular interactions requiring the highest energy to form, when chemically the most stable structures would be those requiring least energy.

 

So this is an entirely on-paper theoretical hypothesis, based on faulty premises all the way through.

Here is a thorough debunk, in addition to yours.

 

https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/claim-that-sars-cov-2-binds-to-hemoglobin-in-red-blood-cells-unsupported-and-implausible-andrew-gaiziunas/

 

The Thalandmedical website was developed by a Thai who is into medical equipment and the site serves as a draw point for marketing.

[yuyiinthesky]

If I ever get in that situation, before dying sedated under such a machine with 60-80% probability, I will insist in getting oxygen only, and refuse sedation and ventilators. 
I instructed the ones around me accordingly.