Question regarding defamation law in thailand

[luckywooman]

Hello Thai Visa forum,

 

i have some question about defamation law in thailand.

 

2 weeks ago i bought a product from a seller (Store rating 98% only had 2 bad ratings with over 400 ratings, around 2 years old) on Lazada and gave the store a 1 star review or negative feedback.

I just said that its difficult to clean and that DO NOT BUY FROM THIS SHOP because it didn't functions as it suppose too. (that cant be bad to get into trouble right? in amazon or ebay i can write anything, bad or good and nobody would care about it).

 

Via Chat the seller said i can return it and get a fully refund. He also said to remove or change the review. He said that he will give me 48 hours to change the review or he will report me to Lazada and file a report and take me to court for defamation.

First i thought nothing about it, I ignored it didn't give a second thought about it. 

 

Until yesterday i got a call from the Police(checked it and it's really is the police number from Bangkok)

 

Its make me a bit worry, would should i expect? getting in trouble with immigration? pay fine? can't be prison right because just a review? 

 

 

thanks for the help and advise

 

 

[torturedsole]

Who knows what's going on here but probably best to remove the review and receive your refund.  Case closed.  

[KhaoYai]

I don't know whether that would be classed as defamation or not but the law is barmy - the craziest part of all is that 'the truth is no defence'. I wouldn't retract it but you might consider changing the statement to just state your experience with the product - not DO NOT BUY FROM THIS SHOP. That way it can only be said that you are criticising the product, not the seller - the effect on buyers will be the same and you haven't defamed anyone.

Edited April 25, 2020 by KhaoYai

[Puchaiyank]

This is Thailand...many rules and laws are in the eyes of the current power structure...

 

Who has your back if you stand firm?

 

Who has the business owner's back if he pursues a judgment against you?

 

Don't think for a minute that this will be a fair fight!

[Sundown]

So you skipped a crucial part. The police called you and...what did they say? 

On the other end: why did you criticize the shop if the problem was the product? The shop also offered you a solution which you ignored. So you didn't have a real problem but just the urge of leaving a bad review? 

[uncleP]

On lazada you have to get a refund through them and not the seller direct. Lazada will not help if you go through chat and the seller refuses to pay. Like all chinese companies  they protect the seller over the customer. Lazada and shopee are part of Alibaba group.

[JensenZ]

Having had experience with defamation laws and endured several court cases, I would suggest you remove the remark or review immediately.

 

The seller has a very good case against you and most likely will win if the case is taken to its conclusion (about 3 hearings in total) meaning a prison sentence and expulsion from Thailand after time has been served PLUS a fine. This is a criminal case.

 

More likely he will want compensation from you which will be suggested (demanded) at a pre-trial mediation session at the provincial court with a mediator or judge presiding. You will agree to a payment in exchange for him dropping the charges. This could be a huge settlement. Hundreds of thousands to millions of baht are quite possible. At this point he has you over a barrel. You'd be paying to stay out of prison and ultimately to stay IN Thailand. You could be quite generous given the options.

 

He also has the option of starting a civil case against you for damages, which can also exceed a million baht depending on what evidence of damages he can show the judge. This can also be resolved by mediation. He can start both the criminal and civil case at the same time. A good lawyer would do this for him.

 

Apart from being totally screwed in both court cases, your lawyer will charge you plenty too. I can't see any good lawyer doing this for under 100k. Also, the entire proceedings could take 6 months if you decided to fight it.

 

There's no upside to this.

 

I should also mention that even if you take down the damning review now, you're still not out of the woods. He can still start criminal proceedings against you. 

 

If I was in your position I would be offering an apology and hoping that will be sufficient. If not, negotiate a settlement. Do not let this go to court. Hopefully, if he hasn't gone to see a lawyer yet, he's not aware of all his options, but a lawyer will soon school him and suggest he go for the kill. As a foreigner, you'll be easy prey.

Edited April 25, 2020 by JensenZ

[Salerno]

1 hour ago, luckywooman said:

that cant be bad to get into trouble right?

Wrong as per above post.

 

Doesn't matter if you are 100% correct, if what you say can damage someones business you will lose.

[ezzra]

In some instances in life it pays to be smart and not necessarily right, while some things are worth fighting for others aren't, save your ammunition to better battles...

[JensenZ]

3 hours ago, Puchaiyank said:

This is Thailand...many rules and laws are in the eyes of the current power structure...

 

Who has your back if you stand firm?

 

Who has the business owner's back if he pursues a judgment against you?

 

Don't think for a minute that this will be a fair fight!

Actually the seller will win, even in a fair fight. The law is the law.

 

This might help, but this is only an informal opinion of defamation laws in Thailand:

 

========================================================================================================================== 

What do the laws in Thailand say about Defamation?

There are two types of defamation in Thailand. Under Section 423 of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code, defamation is defined as a person who makes false statements and circulates it as fact. The false statements must injure the reputation, credit, earnings, or prosperity of another person. If the defamer is found liable, the defamer shall compensate the defamed for any damages arising from the false statements. Even if the defamer does not know that his statements are false, as long as he knows that it should be false, the defamer is liable for defamation. The court is not bound by the criminal code’s limits on punishment in a civil case.

 

Under Section 326 of the Thai Criminal Code, defamation is defined as whoever imputes anything about another person to a third person in a manner likely to impair the person’s reputation or place the person in contempt or hatred by others. When defamation is committed by publication or other media made visible by any means, the offender is liable for imprisonment for up to two years and a fine of up to 200,000 baht. If the person who is accused of defamation is able to prove that the statement is true, the person shall not be punished. But the truth is not a defense for private matters that is not a benefit to the public (Section 330).

 

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/defamation-in-thailand-natural-fruits-corporation-vs-andy-hall/

 

==========================================================================================================================================

 

Even if the OP removes the offending comment now, the seller has 90 days to show the criminal court a screenshot of the comment. He has longer with a civil case.

Edited April 25, 2020 by JensenZ

[JensenZ]

3 minutes ago, ezzra said:

In some instances in life it pays to be smart and not necessarily right, while some things are worth fighting for others aren't, save your ammunition to better battles...

But is the OP "right"? You could make a case that he was out of line by making such a comment about the seller. He was offered a full refund, yet he said "do not buy from this shop". If, for example, you bought something from Big C, took it back to get a refund, and then made a comment not to buy anything from Big C, would that be considered "right"?

 

Generally, if I buy something and get a refund, I don't write bad things about the seller. I'm happy I got a quick refund and move on. I consider fast refunds part of good service.

[ChipButty]

27 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

Generally, if I buy something and get a refund, I don't write bad things about the seller. I'm happy I got a quick refund and move on. I consider fast refunds part of good service.

Some people cant keep their mouths shut I hope for the OP sake they didn't post it on Facebook and anybody who share's the post is also liable, take your refund and move on you are digging a big hole for yourself 

[cornishcarlos]

47 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

If the person who is accused of defamation is able to prove that the statement is true, the person shall not be punished. But the truth is not a defense for private matters that is not a benefit to the public

 

But this sentence might open up an avenue for escape... 

[metisdead]

About the defamation laws in Thailand, note the parts highlighted in bold font below:

 

6) You will not post comments that could be reasonably construed as defamation or libel. Any such posts will be removed and the poster may face an immediate ban.

 

Defamation is the issuance of a statement about another person or business which causes that person to suffer harm. It does not have to be false to be defamatory. Libel is when the defamatory statement is published either in a drawing, painting, cinematography, film, picture or letters made visible by any means, or any other recording instruments, recording picture or letters, or by broadcasting or spreading picture, or by propagation by any other means. Defamation is both a civil and criminal charge in Thailand.

[stevenl]

7 hours ago, Salerno said:

Wrong as per above post.

 

Doesn't matter if you are 100% correct, if what you say can damage someones business you will lose.

And recommending 'don't buy there' is an easy one.

 

Remove it, it is in violation of Thai law.

[Muzzique]

Just contact the seller and agree to his terms. Just be careful to be factual in your reviews next time. 

 

It would appear it did not work and the seller offered to replace or refund you.

 

Its not his fault if its difficult to clean. And it's probably not his fault it didn't work.

 

Writing a critical review when the owner of the store has offered to correct the mistake is not a good move. 

 

It would be different if he had not offered a refund. However you have told people to avoid his store and implied he was knowingly sending out faulty goods trying to scam you.

 

It's absolutely defamation. Suck it up, apologize, and hope he accepts it otherwise you'll be in for a tough ride.

 

[ChipButty]

4 minutes ago, Muzzique said:

you'll be in for a tough ride.

 

Expensive one too

[seajae]

tell them you will remove it if refunded and as soon as you have the money ot will be taken down, just remove the do not buy from them asap

Edited April 26, 2020 by seajae

[JensenZ]

9 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

But this sentence might open up an avenue for escape... 

Of course there might be a chance to escape conviction, but let's explore what a win will cost the OP:
 

1. He gets 2 summons to attend a criminal AND a civil court hearing.

2. 3 court appearances will be necessary to win the criminal case. That will probably span over a period of 6 - 9 months depending on how busy the courts are.

3. He spends a lot of money on a lawyer. My guess is a good one, one with the skills (and motivation) to win such a case, will cost at least 200k. There's at least 5 court appearances for the lawyer with both cases.

4. Before the 3rd hearing of the criminal case he will have to post bail and surrender his passport. His current visa is cancelled.

5. If he wins the criminal case, that doesn't automatically mean a win in the civil case. He still has to fight that one. The lawyer will charge him a percentage of the damages the plaintiff is claiming to fight it. This is standard legal practice in Thailand. I can't remember the amount they charge, but I think it's about 10% of the plaintiff's claim. Thai lawyers love these civil cases.

 

That's the plus side if he wins both cases.

 

It doesn't matter if a lawyer tells him he will win if he fights. The lawyer will most likely do a poor job and lose. Either way, the OP will pay big money for a lawyer, win or lose.

 

if the seller goes to consult a lawyer, the OP is screwed in too many ways to count. As I said, there is no upside here. Even if the seller has a poor case, he can still sue, and in that case it's very likely they will force a settlement from the OP either before the case, or at a court mediation (for both cases). The OP's risk is too great in a Thai court. A foreigner trying to do harm to a Thai business? The judge won't be on the OP's side from the start.

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by JensenZ

[JensenZ]

55 minutes ago, seajae said:

tell them you will remove it if refunded and as soon as you have the money ot will be taken down, just remove the do not buy from them asap

That's crazy advice. Don't wait, remove it immediately and hope that the seller hasn't already gone to consult a lawyer. Even removing it won't change the situation much. Even if it was up for a day or even 5 minutes he's still liable for defamation because the review is in the public domain.

[JensenZ]

9 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Exactly allegedly an English speaking Thai police acquaintance doing a mate a favour.

Something fishy about this but who knows TIT they have there own way.

To start a defamation case you go a lawyer not the police.

First Steps in a Defamation Lawsuit

1. File Complaint.

Once you've met with your attorney and he or she has done some initial investigation, a Complaint will be filed. ...

 

2. Service and Discovery.

After a lawsuit is filed, the defendant has to be served and has a brief window of time in which to respond in writing. ...

 

3. Depositions.

You should file a police report. They will not act on it, but it's the first step before you contact your lawyer.

[CharlieH]

Misleading content and responses removed.

[tifino]

... time for a quiet home country evacuation flight seat

 

 

any apparently simple retraction of the initial negative feedback, is in itself an admission of making an incorrect statement in the first instance

[Henryford]

It raises the question of whether you can even give a bad review of a product on sites like Lazada. I always check such reviews before i buy something and will usually not buy a product if it has a number of bad 1-2 star reviews. Can you give bad reviews of a product as opposed to a bad review of the seller? If not what is the point of the review section, everything gets 5 stars !! The seller could argue that by giving a bad review you are affecting his business and causing him financial loss.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Henryford

[Kwasaki]

17 hours ago, JensenZ said:

You should file a police report. They will not act on it, but it's the first step before you contact your lawyer.

Maybe in Thailand I only read up on some law stuff years ago to help my daughter at the time.

Police maybe involved if criminal but OP's is civil I would say so police usually wanna know.

Only because it's Thailand, if it were me I would apologize to the guy by message and take down the comment made.

[treetops]

OP has just been on and read all this but not thought fit to reply.  Probably didn't hear what she hoped or too busy trying to dig herself out a hole.

[ChipButty]

11 hours ago, treetops said:

OP has just been on and read all this but not thought fit to reply.  Probably didn't hear what she hoped or too busy trying to dig herself out a hole.

Does annoy me when they make a post and she got some valuable information for free I might add, and doesn't even say thanks ot kiss my butt

People made the effort

[garrya]

Let's make things clear. The police officer who called you was a friend of theirs acting illegally. This is the Thai way to bully opponents.

You can contact Lazada's English speaking helpline if you have any concerns. Some of them speak very good English.

 

On another note, Lazada won't ask a buyer to remove their review if it does not claim something untrue. But is one faulty or lower quality item is a reason to give such a bad review? I can't believe. The seller was even helpful.

 

We sell on Lazada and we have had many problems with idiots giving us 1 star and bad seller reviews because of their pitiful subjective opinions. Sellers struggle much more because of vindictive and brainless buyers. Of course there are bad sellers, too.

For example, we got 1 star because the item we sold was too small. Well, it was exactly the size we claim to be and the buyer knew it. Not a millimetre smaller. Others say our item was counterfeit even though we have the certificate of origin and quality. It's our own brand that no one sells in the world. Lol

One says it's too light claiming the item to be only 13-14 kg without actually putting it on the scales. Or they simply don't accept the item and the item has to be sent back hundreds of kms... etc Many people can only give you 1 or 5stars. There is nothing inbetween. People are pitiful and vindictive.

Lazada doesn't budge and allows all these sad idiots to leave bad reviews even if it's not fair.

[garrya]

22 hours ago, treetops said:

OP has just been on and read all this but not thought fit to reply.  Probably didn't hear what she hoped or too busy trying to dig herself out a hole.

Well, she may have lost her spade and she is out looking for it. :-)

[gamesgplayemail]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:43 PM, garrya said:

Let's make things clear. The police officer who called you was a friend of theirs acting illegally. This is the Thai way to bully opponents.

You can contact Lazada's English speaking helpline if you have any concerns. Some of them speak very good English.

 

On another note, Lazada won't ask a buyer to remove their review if it does not claim something untrue. But is one faulty or lower quality item is a reason to give such a bad review? I can't believe. The seller was even helpful.

 

We sell on Lazada and we have had many problems with idiots giving us 1 star and bad seller reviews because of their pitiful subjective opinions. Sellers struggle much more because of vindictive and brainless buyers. Of course there are bad sellers, too.

For example, we got 1 star because the item we sold was too small. Well, it was exactly the size we claim to be and the buyer knew it. Not a millimetre smaller. Others say our item was counterfeit even though we have the certificate of origin and quality. It's our own brand that no one sells in the world. Lol

One says it's too light claiming the item to be only 13-14 kg without actually putting it on the scales. Or they simply don't accept the item and the item has to be sent back hundreds of kms... etc Many people can only give you 1 or 5stars. There is nothing inbetween. People are pitiful and vindictive.

Lazada doesn't budge and allows all these sad idiots to leave bad reviews even if it's not fair.

 

 

good post ! this is the only truth !