Sweden - is the rest of the world dumb, blind or worse ?

[Bkk Brian]

7 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

"Controlling the virus". You really think that? You really believe humans and politicians are "controlling this virus". 

 

One person started all this. If everything you believe were true unlocking would be a catastrophe in every country. The truth is that the infection curves we see country to country are very similar, whether strict lockdowns were implemented or not". 

 

It is easy to see the difference between you and I. We have an "earthquake" here if I may. You think humans and politicians can control it. You are very much mistaken. If it is going to take off again, it is going to take off again... cowering in your home is not going to save you.

 

In fact, inside a home is looking like it is turning out to be the worst place to be. But yeah, keep believing in those lockdowns. 

Ok then, I'll withdraw my offer so you can remain in your own tin foil bubble byeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[chessman]

35 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

We do happen to know economic shutdowns kill many. 

Go and look up what happened to mortality during the Great Depression in the USA. The results may surprise you.

[Heppinger]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Ok then, I'll withdraw my offer so you can remain in your own tin foil bubble byeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Ok so now we need to discuss whether or not tin foil can harbor the virus for any period of time.

[chessman]

1 hour ago, Crazy Alex said:

So then the issue is very much in dispute, yes?

I was replying to a post that stated that ‘When analysing the figures there are many variables, but one thing they do not support is lockdowns, so why do we have them?‘ - 

 

Which is incorrect, right? 

[kingdong]

5 hours ago, chessman said:

Of all the ridiculous statements made on this thread, this is perhaps the most ridiculous.

 

One might as well argue that Somalia is a richer country than Switzerland and when questioned state that if I can find one Somali richer than a Swiss person it will prove my point.

 

it is the logic of the illogical.

Deflection,what's Somalia got to do with th e thread?

[Heppinger]

5 hours ago, chessman said:

Of all the ridiculous statements made on this thread, this is perhaps the most ridiculous.

 

One might as well argue that Somalia is a richer country than Switzerland and when questioned state that if I can find one Somali richer than a Swiss person it will prove my point.

 

it is the logic of the illogical.

Isn't most of Europe starting to look like Somalia?  So that analogy has problems and is confusing me.

[chessman]

23 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

The truth is that the infection curves we see country to country are very similar, whether strict lockdowns were implemented or not". 

Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway

 

not difficult to find flaws in your argument.

[Heppinger]

1 minute ago, chessman said:

Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway

 

not difficult to find flaws in your argument.

I think at least one of these countries should be sacrificed for the common good.  I choose Sweden.  Which one would you choose?

[StreetCowboy]

On 5/16/2020 at 3:28 PM, CanadaSam said:

Has anybody realized, that we are treating this covid thing as worse than the walking dead, but, I know nobody who got the virus, nor do I know anybody who got very sick and/or died from it, and I know a lot of people!

 

I believe the transmission rate of the virus is off the charts, basically unstoppable.

 

I know that most or all countries can not test everybody, and certainly not the ones who are not showing any symptoms.

 

Therefore, now, after a few long months, I have come to the conclusion that a LOT of people have been exposed to it, have not fell ill seriously, and certainly have not died.

 

But countries have.  Died.  Financially, and in many other ways, from these extremely drastic measures.

 

I have two or three friends and relations back in the Old Country who have suffered from the virus, and recovered (and presumably one or two more who have been infected without suffering) and their reported experience is that it was as bad as my Dengue.  We don't need another Dengue. 

Sadly, it now seems endemic in the USA, and many other countries, so the good work that so many countries have done to contain the virus will be wasted. 

On the bright side, it might kill less people in the USA than did the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan, but Truman might reasonably be said to have been at war with the Japanese people.  Trump, it seems, is at war with the American people.

[vermin on arrival]

4 hours ago, bodga said:

Struth if  80+% get almost  no symptoms how are we  "doomed"

I was replying to a person who said that there is no proof that people get immunity from catching coivd. If people don't get any immunity from getting sick, then likely no vaccines will work and this disease will rip through us indefinitely. I however think there is at least limited immunity and that the ifr is much lower than we are being told. Please take my post in context.

[StreetCowboy]

32 minutes ago, Heppinger said:

Isn't most of Europe starting to look like Somalia?  So that analogy has problems and is confusing me.

no

[Crazy Alex]

2 hours ago, utalkin2me said:

It can only be said so many times. There is nobody "insisting on their right to endanger other people". If you are that scared, stay at home. Cower in fear all you would like. Nobody is stopping you. You have the right to stay home and fully protect yourself, and others have the right to go out. What is there not to understand here? 

People endanger me every time they drive a car. According to his logic, I should stay home until deaths from car accidents disappear. LOGIC FAIL.

[Crazy Alex]

1 hour ago, Heppinger said:

I think at least one of these countries should be sacrificed for the common good.  I choose Sweden.  Which one would you choose?

As an American, I would choose Norway. That way, we could steal their oil. ????

[Scott]

Off-topic post reported and removed.

 

[Bkk Brian]

 

Sweden excluded as neighbours Denmark and Norway ease travel restrictions

 

 

[Peter Denis]

11 hours ago, Kinnock said:

And I'm sure there's an equal number saying the opposite [i.e. that lockdowns are not effective]  - the recent JP Morgan study being one.  And for me, logic says the quarantine of healthy people is just wrong.  We know it's elderly people with pre-existing conditions who are at risk.  Focus on protecting them, and let working people go to work.

 

There's also been studies by Oxfam saying 500 million people forced into poverty by the lockdowns and one in Australia saying increased suicide rate due to rising unemployment will exceed COVID deaths. 

 

Whatever view a person holds, there will be studies to support it, but to do something as economically damaging as a lockdown, you should have solid evidence to support it .... not theories and debate.

...

But fear trumps logic.

Thank you!

I re-post part of your earlier post, as it is a Voice of Reason in a sea of Fear and Confusion.

I am getting so tired of all the on-going discussions arguing that lock-downs should be adhered to but not telling when it would be 'safe' to ease them.  In Thailand's case, there is simply no reason to continue them and so the sooner the better to stop them, than the arbitrary 1 July date that has now been announced.

 

 

[Logosone]

2 hours ago, Peter Denis said:

Thank you!

I re-post part of your earlier post, as it is a Voice of Reason in a sea of Fear and Confusion.

I am getting so tired of all the on-going discussions arguing that lock-downs should be adhered to but not telling when it would be 'safe' to ease them.  In Thailand's case, there is simply no reason to continue them and so the sooner the better to stop them, than the arbitrary 1 July date that has now been announced.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. One of the few lockdown policies which were touted as making a difference were school closures, which have not been implemented for some time in Denmark and Norway. School closures were never implemented in Sweden. If school closures were such an effective lockdown measure, why then did neither Denmark, nor Norway, nor Sweden have any infection hotspots at schools (apart from some where adults brought the virus in), nor did they have a massive increase because of school infections?

 

We should be very grateful to Sweden, which kept their schools open all this time, to learn that schools are not the hotspot risk hell holes of Covid19 which many feared them to be.

 

Just saw an interview with an employee at a Kindergarten in Sweden. She literaly said "We've never seen so many healthy chidren, no problems at all".

[Bender Rodriguez]

people really want to inject themselves with a vaccine with unknown side effects for a 0.2 percent mortality rate in the already sick ?

 

fyi:  Morderna execs , one of the vaccine makers, sold their shares making them 30$ million...

 

speculation is that the vaccine will be worthless so cashing out before the others is the smart move... 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/22/investing/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-stock-sales/index.html

[nauseus]

16 minutes ago, Bender Rodriguez said:

people really want to inject themselves with a vaccine with unknown side effects for a 0.2 percent mortality rate in the already sick ?

 

fyi:  Morderna execs , one of the vaccine makers, sold their shares making them 30$ million...

 

speculation is that the vaccine will be worthless so cashing out before the others is the smart move... 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/22/investing/moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-stock-sales/index.html

Just another market set up and rip-off. Nothing to do with Sweden's eyesight.

[Bkk Brian]

13 hours ago, Logosone said:

It's wonderful we have countries like Sweden, Japan, etc who never introduced full mandatory lockdowns, and yet still have miniscule death rates, so we can see that lockdowns are total nonsense.

but but, in a separate thread this morning you state: ????

 

"Lol, of course with miniscule testing Japan, Taiwan et al have the virus under control. No testing for Covid19 equals no deaths of Covid19."

 

 

 

[Logosone]

21 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

but but, in a separate thread this morning you state: ????

 

"Lol, of course with miniscule testing Japan, Taiwan et al have the virus under control. No testing for Covid19 equals no deaths of Covid19."

 

 

Well, that's true. Japan has obviously not tested for the virus on a meaningful scale. 

 

If they had tested more, I have no doubt that in a country of 126,000,000 people, the official figure 816 deaths and 16,673 cases would go up. It's a bit of a joke what Japan is selling to the world.

 

Nevertheless, even with a proper testing effort we would not see Japan having anything more than a miniscule number of deaths. Just like Sweden. The reason is that as we have seen from the data of the country that has tested more than other, Iceland, about 0.8% of the population have the virus.

 

That would mean Japan should have just under 1 million cases, even allowing for more sensible hygiene, green tea and blurred porn.

 

But even 1 million deaths would not mean a death wave. In Iceland, the country that has the most reliable Covid19 data, the death rate is 0.002. So applying that to Japan, deaths in the region of 2520 would be a sensible expectation.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Logosone

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

Well, that's true. Japan has obviously not tested for the virus on a meaningful scale. 

 

If they had tested more, I have no doubt that in a country of 126,000,000 people, the official figure 816 deaths and 16,673 cases would go up. It's a bit of a joke what Japan is selling to the world.

 

Nevertheless, even with a proper testing effort we would not see Japan having anything more than a miniscule number of deaths. Just like Sweden. The reason is that as we have seen from the data of the country that has tested more than other, Iceland, about 0.8% of the population have the virus.

 

That would mean Japan should have just under 1 million cases, even allowing for more sensible hygiene, green tea and blurred porn.

 

Ok so just confirming that you've obviously no problem contradicting yourself, and as a consequence a credibility issue. One day you laud Japan for low death rates and no lockdowns, the next you use Japan as an example that you cannot trust their death statistics due to low testing.

 

29th May: "It's wonderful we have countries like Sweden, Japan, etc who never introduced full mandatory lockdowns, and yet still have miniscule death rates, so we can see that lockdowns are total nonsense."

 

30th May: "Lol, of course with miniscule testing Japan, Taiwan et al have the virus under control. No testing for Covid19 equals no deaths of Covid19."

 

Sensible hygene and green tea I agree with however but thats nothing to do with the points made, just a friendly acknowledgement that there are always ways to help resist this virus, many models and many approaches, no one way has yet been proven, its not over.

 

 

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

Ok so just confirming that you've obviously no problem contradicting yourself, and as a consequence a credibility issue. One day you laud Japan for low death rates and no lockdowns, the next you use Japan as an example that you cannot trust their death statistics due to low testing.

 

29th May: "It's wonderful we have countries like Sweden, Japan, etc who never introduced full mandatory lockdowns, and yet still have miniscule death rates, so we can see that lockdowns are total nonsense."

 

30th May: "Lol, of course with miniscule testing Japan, Taiwan et al have the virus under control. No testing for Covid19 equals no deaths of Covid19."

 

Sensible hygene and green tea I agree with however but thats nothing to do with the points made, just a friendly acknowledgement that there are always ways to help resist this virus, many models and many approaches, no one way has yet been proven, its not over.

 

 

It's not a contradiction, as I've specified even if Japan had tested more the death figure would be unlikely to surpass 2520. Which is a risibly small number for a country of 126 million people. 

 

What is clear though is that a lack of testing and a lack of a proper mandatory lockdown has not resulted in 500000 deaths in Japan. 

 

Coronapocalypse once again postponed. 

[kekalot]

here's some facts from the WHO themselves

 

https://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/statements/2017/flu/en/

 

for people who don't want to bother clicking and or reading, "Up to 650 000 people die of respiratory diseases linked to seasonal flu each year"

 

seasonal flu doesn't mean whole year, obviously.

they said it started in December so we are technically sitting at 7th month of this (58% of a year) and last I checked it was a close to 55-60% those normal figures

 

/yawn

 

 

[balo]

18 hours ago, farang51 said:

By the way, Denmark just announced opening it's borders to some of their neighbouring countries - but not to Sweden because Sweden do not have the virus under control.

Here in Norway the border will open to Denmark, Iceland and Germany from 15th June.
Our biggest headache is Sweden who do not have the pandemic under control.  

So if you want to visit Denmark the safest option is by sea, you are also allowed to drive through Sweden to the Danish border , but it's not recommended to make any stops along the way. 
 

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Logosone said:

It's not a contradiction, as I've specified even if Japan had tested more the death figure would be unlikely to surpass 2520. Which is a risibly small number for a country of 126 million people. 

 

What is clear though is that a lack of testing and a lack of a proper mandatory lockdown has not resulted in 500000 deaths in Japan. 

 

Coronapocalypse once again postponed. 

Ooooh yes it is, when you made the posts you did not specify that, that is after the fact, only when I pointed out your polar contradictions do you start to come back with your excuse. Both statements are clearly opposing each other and made on different days. Please don't dig further into the hole it will not turn out well for you.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Bkk Brian

[mommysboy]

I guess every man and his dog has got the best strategy for dealing with covid19.  I'm sure UK got it badly wrong, and possibly Thailand for the opposite reason.  Imo it's probably best to keep that now famous 'R' ratio to around 1.1, whilst hopefully protecting the old and vulnerable.  This would ensure that life could go on pretty much as usual without hospitals being overwhelmed, and all the time there would be a build of 'herd immunity'.  Thailand, so long as it tries to eradicate covid19 leaves itself open to constant reinfection.  Sweden has got it about right imo, but note such an open policy was right for that country given it's relatively small cities.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, kekalot said:

here's some facts from the WHO themselves

 

https://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/statements/2017/flu/en/

 

for people who don't want to bother clicking and or reading, "Up to 650 000 people die of respiratory diseases linked to seasonal flu each year"

 

seasonal flu doesn't mean whole year, obviously.

they said it started in December so we are technically sitting at 7th month of this (58% of a year) and last I checked it was a close to 55-60% those normal figures

 

/yawn

 

 

In the UK, 15000 flu associated deaths per year would be a fair estimate, whereas covid19 has already been linked with 40,000 deaths in around 3 months.  

 

In my view, Covid19 deaths should only be counted in people under 70, who do not have significant underlying health conditions.  This would give us a more honest picture of how deadly the virus is, since it could really be argued that most deaths are really a matter of old age, or obesity, or diabetes, etc.

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, Logosone said:

I couldn't agree more. One of the few lockdown policies which were touted as making a difference were school closures, which have not been implemented for some time in Denmark and Norway. School closures were never implemented in Sweden. If school closures were such an effective lockdown measure, why then did neither Denmark, nor Norway, nor Sweden have any infection hotspots at schools (apart from some where adults brought the virus in), nor did they have a massive increase because of school infections?

 

We should be very grateful to Sweden, which kept their schools open all this time, to learn that schools are not the hotspot risk hell holes of Covid19 which many feared them to be.

 

Just saw an interview with an employee at a Kindergarten in Sweden. She literaly said "We've never seen so many healthy chidren, no problems at all".

Sweden only kept their lower schools open, higher schools from 16 + tutorial centers and Universities were all asked to close, that said the bulk of schools did indeed remain open, it was a perfect opportunity missed to do a full study on the effects of covid on school communities, yet the outbreaks they did have in schools the officials failed to track infections among students. Many parents in Sweden are afraid for their childrens safety and are complaining to no avail.

 

New Zealand, Australia are just 2 example countries with successful outcomes based on their circumstances, they both had serious outbreaks in schools with students infected and locked down those schools as a result, to re open when cleared, sensible approach for them that worked.

[Logosone]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Ooooh yes it is, when you made the posts you did not specify that, that is after the fact, only when I pointed out your polar contradictions do you start to come back with your excuse. Both statements are clearly opposing each other and made on different days. Please don't dig further into the hole it will not turn out well for you.

It's not a contradiction.

 

It is perfectly possible for a country to not test enough yet still have very low numbers of Covid19 deaths.

 

How is this hard to understand?