Best way to own land as a married couple

[torturedsole]

8 minutes ago, mikemi said:

Is there any law that prevents such a contract from being created?

No.  Is there any law that ensures you get your money back? ... Erm, a big fat no.  

 

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by torturedsole

[thainet]

13 minutes ago, mikemi said:

well the idea is that nobody gets burned, isnt it. hence the thread.

 

Are you saying that foreigners cant create contracts in thailand? or cant give loans?

 

I buy a house for 100k or whatever. I own a lien on the house for 50k, or my wife owes me 50k via contract to be paid whenever I see fit.

 

So she has the house and is 100k up, but she owes me 50k.

 

The contract will stipulate settlement terms. It would say something like, in the event of separation the owed money is to be paid within 1 year or the house is to be sold via a named firm of solicitors via public auction, proceeds to be split 50/50.

 

As far as I can see, so long as foreigners can enter into contracts in thai law, then why doesnt this method work?

 

Can we have a bit more thinking, and a bit less of the usual "its thailand you will lose everything " because I find it really childish, repetitive, and most of all ignorant.

 

Is there any law that prevents such a contract from being created?

 

 

 

But to answer your question, yes certain contracts can be drawn up through Lawyers, so as you seem to have it all worked out, I'll leave my advice as is.

 

PS.. And if you read my earlier post, I did not say you will lose everything. I said anything to do with land in thailand is very complicated for foreigners.

[Moouan]

Mikemi, I don't know about loans etc, however the best way to protect your interest in the land in the event your relationship fails is to take out a Usufruct on the land, I originally did this. A Usufruct gives you the right to occupy and use the land as you see fit until your death, it is registered on the land document at the land office. This prevents anyone from selling, borrowing against or using the land with out your consent. Very easy and cheap to set up with a lawyer.  Also, contrary to someone else's post, but as this is agricultural land it is unlikely to be a Chanote title but one of the other lesser titles eg, Nor Sor Saam. Setting up a company with you as a 49% shareholder is an option but opens you up to other requirements and costs such as tax return obligations. A Usufruct is the way to go imho. Regarding a Work Permit as another said agricultural work is reserved for Thai nationals but your work permit would be in a management capacity, unlikely you will be out digging and planting/picking in this heat anyway????. Good luck, fwiw contrary to all the naresayers it can work out here, I have been here nearly 20 years happily married for the last ten with two beautiful children, and we all live very well off the money my wife makes running her own businesses.

[thailand49]

9 hours ago, mikemi said:

What money? she isnt asking for money, she has more money than me lol

 

I am asking that if I put my life and time in there, how best to split our assets, if anybody knows a good way

This response is coming from from your ego?  if that was the real case " more money than me " everything you speak of would have been done already with or without you?  Transferring land between family from my experience is simple walk in with those involved and it is done.

 

You kind of sound like a women in reverse from the West in general ???? " Gold digger " 

[baansgr]

9 hours ago, mikemi said:

Well, we are not sure exactly what we are going to do yet, as far as living arrangements. We could build on the farm, or buy somewhere local.

 

Currently, we are renting somewhere local, its so cheap we may stick with that.

 

But whatever we do, obviously over time, life consumes money even if we dont buy/build a house.

 

I just want to make sure if we split, then we do so 50/50 on whatever we have at that time.

 

As I said I dont feel like I have any claim on the farm at the moment, after 10/20/30 years of work, I am sure I would feel differently.

 

So, in order to have a claim, would it not be possible so have a lien secured against any assets in thailand that were actionable on the lien holders request?

 

Even if you dont own the land, surely you can still own a lien of a specified value?

First step, get the land in wife's name, until then everything else is moot. What land Title is it? If it's one of those exotic farming hand me downs can't build on it kinda worthless titles, you won't be able to attach any lien/loan. If it is possible considering the land title and permission of the land office, you attach a lien with contract...your wife can't sell without you be present and paid. Forcing her to sell whether she has to or not is another can of worms. Why not just put in labour effort rather than any monetary value...if you do part, at least it was an experience and you learned how to grow durian.

 

[northsouthdevide]

The loan method is an option for your wife, but I don't think it is for you. 

I think it only works for you if the land has a chanote type title beed, which is freehold. 

Most farm land doesn't have a chanote deed. 

[Grumpy one]

12 hours ago, mikemi said:

yes the family member is loaded and is up in bangkok, hates farms

But no doubt loves money, be careful 

[JoeMc]

'Do a bit of farming' .. don't bet on it ! Lucky to get 2 hours in a day if you get up @5:30. The heat and humidity over past month in Issan has been fierce.

To grow rice the costs are greater than the yield .. sitting in the UK it all looks very romantic but reality something else !!!

[scorecard]

10 hours ago, mikemi said:

What money? she isnt asking for money, she has more money than me lol

 

I am asking that if I put my life and time in there, how best to split our assets, if anybody knows a good way

You could ask her to make a will indicating that on her death she bequeaths the land and whatever development exists to you.

 

This is allowed by Thai law and there have been cases like this through Thai courts quite a few times.

 

But when the court gives a ruling (sequestration of her will) to give the land to you another Thai law kicks in - you must sell the land or house etc., within 12 months of the court order and you keep the proceeds (if that's your wish).

 

This is all clearly stated in the Commercial law of Thailand. 

 

Good luck.

 

 

[cornishcarlos]

1 hour ago, Moouan said:

This prevents anyone from selling,

 

I think that is incorrect, however no-one is likely to buy a piece of land with a Usufruct in place.

[pineapple01]

Just stay out of it.

[coulterni]

10 hours ago, mikemi said:

Well, we are not sure exactly what we are going to do yet, as far as living arrangements. We could build on the farm, or buy somewhere local.

 

Currently, we are renting somewhere local, its so cheap we may stick with that.

 

But whatever we do, obviously over time, life consumes money even if we dont buy/build a house.

 

I just want to make sure if we split, then we do so 50/50 on whatever we have at that time.

 

As I said I dont feel like I have any claim on the farm at the moment, after 10/20/30 years of work, I am sure I would feel differently.

 

So, in order to have a claim, would it not be possible so have a lien secured against any assets in thailand that were actionable on the lien holders request?

 

Even if you dont own the land, surely you can still own a lien of a specified value?

If it’s government land I don’t think you can put a lien on it as it cannot even be changed to your wife’s name . It must remain in the name it was originally allocated. As for working the farm that would also be a problem as you would have no work permit or be able to get one . You would need to rethink your plans carefully .

[zyphodb]

12 hours ago, mikemi said:

But it would be possible to loan, and secure the loan against the land, would it not?

Not for you. For your wife, if it's been transferred to her name, yes...

[ThaidDown]

1, Contracts between husband and wife can be cancelled by either party at any time and are therefore unenforceable.

    (CCC 1469}

2, Wills can be replaced by a new one at any time

3, A Usufruct (or Lease) on land does not prevent it being sold. But as pointed out what would be its value.

 

 

[rwill]

If her Thai ID is still a Thai surname then just have her go and change it to her name without you involved.  

I tried this with my wife but her Thai ID has a Thai version of my last name.  When the land office saw this they told her I had to sign off on it too.  That is sign a paper stating that none of the money was mine and that I had no claim to the land.

Edited May 25, 2020 by rwill

[Bender Rodriguez]

that family member will be so happy that you invest (as married couple) 

 

sorry, it was a GIFT

 

people kill other people over a stolen chicken or a washing line that hangs over communal property...

[Bender Rodriguez]

7 hours ago, thainet said:

I buy a house for 100k or whatever. I own a lien on the house for 50k, or my wife owes me 50k via contract to be paid whenever I see fit.

people don't know laws overhere

 

your wife can steal whatever she wants from you, during marriage

 

it is a crime, but under the marriage system, she is allowed to take whatever she wants

 

ask a lawyer if you doubt me

[phantomfiddler]

First you say your wife has a piece of land, then you say it doesn,t belong to her but is "in the family" ! This is the biggest and most common scam in this country. The Farang pays  a LOT OF MONEY to keep the land in the family, it,s the national sport ???? The unfortunate person has been divested of a significant amount of his life savings yet nothing has changed and all his money has basically brought about no hard security or tangible assets at all. Don,t do it ! Most likely her Thai family have pressured her to try try this on, and they will be the one,s to reap the benefits ! 

[sead]

I just hope you read all warnings about the complicated laws etc and if you still want to invest then be careful. The initial investment isnt whats going to cost you. Its unbelivable how much you will have to put in afterwards because this and that will come up. And suddenly you are in the process of <deleted> happened.......

Let her invest in her land. You go buy some condo in Pattaya or Phuket and tell her that you want to invest in that and put it out for rentals. If youre not married then you can have it in your name only. If youre married then put the condo in you childrens name but dont let her ever sign in the housebook of the condo .And then suddenly you also have a reason to sometimes get out to check your condos. 

[Moouan]

1 hour ago, ThaidDown said:

1, Contracts between husband and wife can be cancelled by either party at any time and are therefore unenforceable.

    (CCC 1469}

2, Wills can be replaced by a new one at any time

3, A Usufruct (or Lease) on land does not prevent it being sold. But as pointed out what would be its value.

 

 

Thank you for clarifying the sale issue, however as you say, who would buy land with a Usufruct unless the named party was very old and the buyer was looking to the future. I understand the difference between a Lease and a Usufruct would be firstly the maximum legal registered lease is 30 years (the 30+30+30 is <deleted> and cannot be registered) where as a Usufruct is for life also a Lease is likely to come with restrictions on use etc, my understanding is a Usufruct allows the holder to use the land as he chooses provided he is not breaking the law of course. Remember, unlikely many on here are Lawyers practising in Thailand but giving advice based sometimes on experience and often on pub talk. Also if you follow TV you will see the trend of people commenting who have been burned in the past often through naivety or not doing their homework diligently. If you really want the best advice contact a reputable Lawyer. (Not as easy to find here, they do not seem to abide by the same professional ethics as in the West look for recommendations). 

[kingofthemountain]

16 hours ago, mikemi said:

Personally, at the moment I dont feel as if I have any claim to anything. It is her and her families land from long before she met me, and my current investment is $0.00.

 

.....

What should I do here?

Hold your ground

don't put even one satang into it and thank me later

don't give any advice or your opinion , let your wife manage it

with her family. Also i recomand you to not show interest in the project

in any form or your help (Money) should be asked soon or later

anyway as a foreigner you are not allowed to work in agriculture

 

Under Thai Law foreigners are prohibited to engage in any of the following occupations.

• Manual work.
• Work in agriculture, animal husbandry, forestry or fishery excluding specialized work in each particular branch or farm supervision.
• Bricklaying, carpentry or other construction works.
• Wood carving.....

[stupidfarang]

8 hours ago, mikemi said:

well the idea is that nobody gets burned, isnt it. hence the thread.

 

Are you saying that foreigners cant create contracts in thailand? or cant give loans?

 

I buy a house for 100k or whatever. I own a lien on the house for 50k, or my wife owes me 50k via contract to be paid whenever I see fit.

 

So she has the house and is 100k up, but she owes me 50k.

 

The contract will stipulate settlement terms. It would say something like, in the event of separation the owed money is to be paid within 1 year or the house is to be sold via a named firm of solicitors via public auction, proceeds to be split 50/50.

 

As far as I can see, so long as foreigners can enter into contracts in thai law, then why doesnt this method work?

 

Can we have a bit more thinking, and a bit less of the usual "its thailand you will lose everything " because I find it really childish, repetitive, and most of all ignorant.

 

Is there any law that prevents such a contract from being created?

 

 

 

It looks like you think Thailand is like the UK with the rule of law, you need to wake up, it is not the same. Also there are many ways to get rid of an unwelcome farang, have the family visit you and make daily life very bad for you, maybe shoot you, maybe arrange to have you deported, maybe arrange something illegal to be found on your person. You say "you find it really childish, repetitive and most of all ignorant". You came on here for advice from expats who have lived here for a long time, maybe many have had experince in these matters in the past, generally I feel most on here have given you an honest personal opinion and I suggest it would be good for you to listen instead of insulting the people you have asked advice from. At the end of the day you cannot own the land, contracts can be cancelled, it is who you know that counts here. Good luck 

[ThaidDown]

25 minutes ago, Moouan said:

Thank you for clarifying the sale issue, however as you say, who would buy land with a Usufruct unless the named party was very old and the buyer was looking to the future. I understand the difference between a Lease and a Usufruct would be firstly the maximum legal registered lease is 30 years (the 30+30+30 is <deleted> and cannot be registered) where as a Usufruct is for life also a Lease is likely to come with restrictions on use etc, my understanding is a Usufruct allows the holder to use the land as he chooses provided he is not breaking the law of course. Remember, unlikely many on here are Lawyers practising in Thailand but giving advice based sometimes on experience and often on pub talk. Also if you follow TV you will see the trend of people commenting who have been burned in the past often through naivety or not doing their homework diligently. If you really want the best advice contact a reputable Lawyer. (Not as easy to find here, they do not seem to abide by the same professional ethics as in the West look for recommendations). 

As I pointed out all contracts between husband and wife are unenforceable, that includes a lease agreement.

 

(For Usufructs it's not so clear cut. Judges seem divided on whether it is an agreement between or a Real Right bestowed on the other person, if you want more info on that use your favourite search engine.)

[Max69xl]

14 hours ago, northsouthdevide said:

You will never own or even part own that land. 

It is not permitted under Thai law. 

I suspect that it is government land that is allocated to your wife's family. 

She could possibly get her name on the back of the document, but you will not be in the equation. 

By all means feel free to invest in developing the land for agriculture, but don't get it into your head that you'll sell it at a massive profit one day, because its likely that you won't. 

Durian is a good investment, if you look after the trees properly. 

But it all depends on future market value. 

At one time, everyone was rushing to plant rubber, but now they're changing to coffee because the price is low, due to taksim not subsidising the industry these days. 

Now everyone is looking to China to buy Dorian in the future. 

About 80% of Durian grown in Thailand goes on export to China and neighbouring countries like Singapore. That's why Durian is quite expensive in Thailand when it could have been almost free. This is copied from a website:

 

"Durian is a 'hot' fruit in China, with steadily growing demand among consumers. But, due to having no domestic commercial durian production, China relies on imports from Thailand, the only country approved by Chinese phytosanitary authorities to export fresh durian here.10 aug. 2019".

[kingofthemountain]

9 hours ago, mikemi said:

well the idea is that nobody gets burned, isnt it. hence the thread.

 

Are you saying that foreigners cant create contracts in thailand? or cant give loans?

 

I buy a house for 100k or whatever. I own a lien on the house for 50k, or my wife owes me 50k via contract to be paid whenever I see fit.

 

So she has the house and is 100k up, but she owes me 50k.

 

The contract will stipulate settlement terms. It would say something like, in the event of separation the owed money is to be paid within 1 year or the house is to be sold via a named firm of solicitors via public auction, proceeds to be split 50/50.

 

As far as I can see, so long as foreigners can enter into contracts in thai law, then why doesnt this method work?

 

Can we have a bit more thinking, and a bit less of the usual "its thailand you will lose everything " because I find it really childish, repetitive, and most of all ignorant.

 

Is there any law that prevents such a contract from being created?

 

 

 

Your theory is nice, and could work in a state where you have rights like in europe

 

Here in Thailand you can do the contract, the problem is when the s....t hit the fan

you have to go to court, pay a lawyer, fight during years, all cost a lot of your money.

 

And even if you win finaly, how can you manage to force your ex wife to sale the house

or give your money back? Don't forget it's not your country nor your family and you come here in a rural area threaten them trying to extort money or a house they think for some reasons they are entitled to own?

 

Can you feel already the insecurity you could face?

 

How do you think you could sell the house when there is no real estate agency and only the ''mouth to ear'' and nobody want to buy it because everyone know each other in the area and they dont want problems with your ex wife or her family?

Edited May 25, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[thainet]

I feel we all should give up on giving this OP advice. He obviously has his own ideas, and is clearly not listening to mostly good advice and ideas from other posters, so for me 'au revoir'. Some people are just not worthy for help.????

Edited May 25, 2020 by thainet

[kingofthemountain]

17 hours ago, mikemi said:

Hi I will give you some backstory. I am married to a thai woman, we met in england, she was here as she had married another guy previously, but they split up. We had always planned to stay in england initially, but things changed blah blah. My wife has a piece of land, I suppose its like family land from a grandmother or something.

 

So, the land had previously rubber trees, but they were getting old and needed changing. I have always wanted to be a farmer, having worked on farms when I was in my 20s, so when the opportunity arose to get involved I was all for it, especially as it gives us an exit from the UK. Nobody else in the family really wanted to be involved with the land, they are up in bangkok doing other businesses, and those who did didnt have the money anyway to replace the rubber trees.

 

So, my wife paid (yes my wife, not me), for the rubber trees to be replaced with durian, and put in a watering system, couple of bore holes, pond dug, couple of little huts etc. This has all cost quite a lot, and I think when all is said and done it will be a roughly 60,000 gbp investment by the time we get to 2024, the year in which the durian should start to yield....

i recomand you to read this topic

please don't become the next guy to fall into this

ar least you will not be able to say ''i didn't know''

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1161362-my-girlfriends-job/

[Huckenfell]

The very first thing to do is to confirm that the family actually own the land and that it is not one of those "Sor Bor" blocks or whatever they are called. A friend of mine payed a lot of money to family to release land to his wife only to eventually find that the land belonged to the King and was released to a poor family for farming purposes only with no rights to sell, lease or give away.  Bye Bye money .

[blackcab]

4 hours ago, northsouthdevide said:

The loan method is an option for your wife, but I don't think it is for you. 

I think it only works for you if the land has a chanote type title beed, which is freehold. 

Most farm land doesn't have a chanote deed. 

 

Exactly this. The first thing you need to do before you go any further is to establish the level of the land title. If it is Sor Por Gor land you will not be able to have any kind of claim against the title whatsoever. Such land was given to landless farmers to be cultivated and cannot be officially loaned or mortgaged. You cannot be entered on the title in any way, shape or form. Such land cannot be owned by a company.

 

Of course you could make a contract between yourself and your wife, however Section 1469 of the Civil and Commercial Code allows a spouse to void a contract at any time during their marriage or within one year of their divorce.

[Alex2554]

Foreigners can't own land in Thailand, but the Land Registry allows a Thai national married to a foreigner to own land after a joint statement together with his or her foreign spouse or proof that the money expended on the land/ real estate is personal property of the Thai spouse. This effectively means that the land (and in practice often land and house and in some cases condominium) is purchased as a personal property of the Thai spouse and not a marital and jointly owned property between husband and wife (Sin Somros). The foreign spouse has therefore no claim to the property and the Thai spouse has the right to sell, mortgage, transfer or exchange the property without consent of the foreign spouse.

Edited May 25, 2020 by blackcab
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