Bought a condo with girlfriend, but how do I protect my deposit?

[whaleboneman]

I like to play devil's advocate. 

You are making the down payment for the condo. You will be paying the bulk of the mortgage. You will have no claim on the property but most of the investment. Should your relationship turn sour, what will be your plan? Will you just walk away from it all or continue to pay to protect your investment? Could your girlfriend pay the full amount of the mortgage if you left?

Protecting your investment with a legal agreement that when she sells she will pay you back will just ensure that she will never sell. However, she could contact the police at any time and have you removed from her condo.

On the other hand, if you're good together now, it does seem like a good arrangement. Just don't expect to get any money back.

[Ron jeremy]

14 hours ago, Skallywag said:

Money spent in a foreign country is money gone is my philosophy

Enjoy life and kiss that 1.3 M baht goodbye.

Never discuss finances with a lady.

You give, they take is all you need to know to be happy ????

 

 

14 hours ago, Skallywag said:

Money spent in a foreign country is money gone is my philosophy

Enjoy life and kiss that 1.3 M baht goodbye.

Never discuss finances with a lady.

You give, they take is all you need to know to be happy ????

 

Exactly, it's gone now, never to return. The interest you are earning, in YOUR bank, in YOUR country , on YOUR money is paying for half the rent. And YOUR mney stay there, not in banana land. 

So it was basically free. Now your gal with the bank loan in her name will be very grateful for your money.

hopefully things turn out for you, perhaps she is different.

[torturedsole]

I don't want to stick the boot in, but a bit late to be asking for advice once you've parted with your cash.  

 

The way the condo market is going in LOS then bigger savings could be found in the months to come, making your bargain purchase look not such a bargain.

 

Your OP is asking the same question as 'can your new wife sign a prenup after you're married'.  Well yes, but little motivation to do so. 

[nauseus]

Any deposit is at risk of default once the purchase contract is signed and the present owner or developer won't be keen on returning it. It's difficult to protect a deposit, as such. See (2) below.

 

 

Some advice:

 

1. Stop everything. If I were you I would wait - there is a good chance that the market will drop further in the next few months at least - real bargains will likely increase in number - don't rush. As the g/f has arranged the loan then this sudden brake risks pissing her off (loss of face etc). But if she is an understanding girl..then she will understand..another risk there but also a good test of her character. If you explain that by waiting you might find a better place for the same money it might help.

 

2. In the meantime find the best and most reputable law firm that you can (also almost certainly among the most expensive) and seek advice for any future purchase like this. In my experience it is worth it.

 

3. There are ways to protect yourself (see 2) and the easiest one is to become the mortgagee but I that this can only be done after the bank loan is satisfied and the bank is no longer the sole mortgagee. At that stage, the chanote should be available from the bank.  

 

4. You can try to get your name in as co-owner but that is probably going to be not acceptable to the bank if the loan arrangement is with the g/f only. The best way here is to buy the place in your name.

 

5. Best of luck whatever you do. 

 

[chicowoodduck]

I am dead serious....best way to protect your money?  Put everything in your name and run......away......fast would be best.....????????????????

[BTB1977]

Put it in your name only. Buy it yourself.  Buying property with a girlfriend? Who would do that? No mention of who's name is  on the house book? 

[London Boy]

8 hours ago, torturedsole said:

I don't want to stick the boot in, but a bit late to be asking for advice once you've parted with your cash.  

 

The way the condo market is going in LOS then bigger savings could be found in the months to come, making your bargain purchase look not such a bargain.

 

Your OP is asking the same question as 'can your new wife sign a prenup after you're married'.  Well yes, but little motivation to do so. 

You really should read previous posts before replying. As previous explained, settlelement is not untill the 23rd june and the deposit money of ฿1.3million is still in the Uk, in a Nationwide ISA only earning 0.01%. So now is very much the right time to ask this question.

[London Boy]

Just to update everyone who has an interest in my dilema I spoke to an English trained lawyer last night (working in Bangkok). He said that a document between myself and GF won’t really carry much weight if it ever went to court. The cost of such a legal document is around ฿30-50,000, and its primary purpose is to to cement the idea in her mind that the deposit is not joint property. He said the only real protection is to supply 50% of the purchase price so your name is on the land registry documents. As such I think the best course of action is to increase my percentage to 50% (in 3 years time) after the fixed mortgage period runs out and get my name on the title.

[blackcab]

4 minutes ago, London Boy said:

As such I think the best course of action is to increase my percentage to 50% (in 3 years time) after the fixed mortgage period runs out and get my name on the title.

 

This would be problematic.

 

Do you mean that in three years your partner will have completely repaid the three million baht mortgage and the property will be free of encumbrances?

 

If you do mean this then you must understand that there is no simple process of adding a name to a chanote. Such a transaction would be classed as a sale, which would mean there would be Land Office fees and taxes to pay. You should clarify whether your Land Office will accept a 50 per cent fee in this case as the original owner would stay on the chanote.

 

If, on the other hand, your partner would need to re-mortgage in three years then I refer you to my previous answer: It would be unlikely that the new mortgagor would permit you to be a joint owner unless you were a joint mortgagee.

[scubascuba3]

29 minutes ago, London Boy said:

You really should read previous posts before replying. As previous explained, settlelement is not untill the 23rd june and the deposit money of ฿1.3million is still in the Uk, in a Nationwide ISA only earning 0.01%. So now is very much the right time to ask this question.

ISAs in the UK are more than 0.01%, you could move your money, maybe 1% if fixed account

[London Boy]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

ISAs in the UK are more than 0.01%, you could move your money, maybe 1% if fixed account

They were in March, but since the Bank of England reduced the base rate to 0.10% most ISA's and saving rates have tumbled.

[Elkski]

your  GF struck  gold.  she will have instant  30% equity.   the condo will be hers in how many  years?  so the mortgage is 3 years  fixed  rate then what?  

she  could easily find   another man to pay what  was it 13,000? 

She could  always kick you  out  so you  better be good to her standards. 

so your  betting 1 good year of retirement that this woman is the one. 

I have to  think condo prices will be dropping more but the bottom is hard to find.  

I guess  you have been researching this block for 6 months so you must feel it's well cared  for and a food quality build and  owners?  how did you happen on this deal  before others? 

it is nice sized.  

so how are you going to stay in Thailand  as I recall you are 46? 

how do you earn money? visa.  

 

I'm sorry  but this just seems like something a dad would do for a child not his GF. 

[scubascuba3]

1 hour ago, London Boy said:

They were in March, but since the Bank of England reduced the base rate to 0.10% most ISA's and saving rates have tumbled.

Virgin Money have a one year fixed ISA at 1.05%, more than your 0.01%

[BritManToo]

3 hours ago, London Boy said:

Just to update everyone who has an interest in my dilema I spoke to an English trained lawyer last night (working in Bangkok). He said that a document between myself and GF won’t really carry much weight if it ever went to court. The cost of such a legal document is around ฿30-50,000, and its primary purpose is to to cement the idea in her mind that the deposit is not joint property. He said the only real protection is to supply 50% of the purchase price so your name is on the land registry documents. As such I think the best course of action is to increase my percentage to 50% (in 3 years time) after the fixed mortgage period runs out and get my name on the title.

Nothing like doubling when you're already losing.

[DrJack54]

OP, I saw your post day 1 of your post. 

Without even reading the last 7 pages, I know that there would be MANY stating that your crazy. The main reason is that you are being foolish. Naive at best.

GF 2 years. A very small deposit %. 

Rents in Thailand are cheap. 

Coincidentally I'm looking to buy property similar price to you. I'm going to put it solely into GF name (defacto 8 years). Why my double standard.

Firstly 8 years living together she would get much more if we were back in my home country. I'm gifting it to her. 

Secondly I'm much older than you and sounds like acquired a lot more, hence can happily walk away from it if <deleted> hits fan.

Hope is sounding too superior, but don't do it mate your making a rod for not only you back but also for the relationship.

Still together in 3 years then have another look. 

 

[chrisandsu]

If it’s worth 5.2 but you are getting it for 4.2 and you are also Paying 1.3 as a deposit then surely you are not far off the 50% mark ? A little creative  accountancy might help you get there for a 50% ownership ? 

[DrJack54]

12 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

If it’s worth 5.2 but you are getting it for 4.2 and you are also Paying 1.3 as a deposit then surely you are not far off the 50% mark ? A little creative  accountancy might help you get there for a 50% ownership ? 

How you or OP work out it's worth 5.2?

It's worth what someone pays.

Also costs come off deposit. So with transfers and legal etc they might have ~ 1.2mill. ÷ by 4.2 = under 30% equity.

For 46 year old? Into 2 yr relationship

The guy is crazy.

The only reason half possible is that interest rates for deposits in banks are currently zip.

This not a brag but fact. In April I had 500k aud deposit mature Australia. I had s.h.i.t rate 2.65 % . My new offer rollover was 1%.

So if you have money perhaps good time to buy real estate not crazy as opportunity cost record low. Buying shares better idea.

OP idea not even on Bell curve.

[chrisandsu]

11 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

How you or OP work out it's worth 5.2?

It's worth what someone pays.

Also costs come off deposit. So with transfers and legal etc they might have ~ 1.2mill. ÷ by 4.2 = under 30% equity.

For 46 year old? Into 2 yr relationship

The guy is crazy.

The only reason half possible is that interest rates for deposits in banks are currently zip.

This not a brag but fact. In April I had 500k aud deposit mature Australia. I had s.h.i.t rate 2.65 % . My new offer rollover was 1%.

So if you have money perhaps good time to buy real estate not crazy as opportunity cost record low. Buying shares better idea.

OP idea not even on Bell curve.

Don’t banks send someone to value the property ? 

[samsensam]

 

my niece in the uk has the deposit and income for a property and morgage, her bf has a much lower income and less secure employment, she wants to buy a house, he want's to buy together (surprise surprise).

 

my advice; does she see herself spending the rest of her life with him? if yes then go ahead, if not sure or no then she should buy and he pay her rent. she keeps hold of her deposit and the investment. if they get married they can review, if they don't her money is safe. common sense financial, if not romantic, solution.

[nauseus]

5 minutes ago, samsensam said:

 

my niece in the uk has the deposit and income for a property and morgage, her bf has a much lower income and less secure employment, she wants to buy a house, he want's to buy together (surprise surprise).

 

my advice; does she see herself spending the rest of her life with him? if yes then go ahead, if not sure or no then she should buy and he pay her rent. she keeps hold of her deposit and the investment. if they get married they can review, if they don't her money is safe. common sense financial, if not romantic, solution.

If they get married in the UK then everything changes anyway!

[samran]

On 6/2/2020 at 1:54 PM, London Boy said:

I agree with you there. You need to start as you mean to go on. Which is why we have discussed this and explained to her the deposit is not a gift but a loan that has to be paid back to me. She currently pays ฿4300 rent and I pay ฿15000 in rent. Our mortgage with be ฿18500 so we’ll be paying the same amount to pay of our condo (plus ฿3000 in common fees). I think financially it makes sense. 

It makes no sense for you. 
 

Paying 15K rent you don’t own any property at the end of your lease but you still have 1.3m baht.

 

You get this mortgage and at the end you will not own any property and be down 1.3m baht.  
 

Makes sense for your GF though. She pays 4800 a month and comes away with 5million baht in property. Deal of the century!

 

On a seperate note, you are mad to be buying something now. Haven’t you noticed that the world economy has gone tits up? Wait 12 months and people will be begging you to buy at a large discount. 

[DaRoadrunner]

13 hours ago, London Boy said:

Just to update everyone who has an interest in my dilema I spoke to an English trained lawyer last night (working in Bangkok). He said that a document between myself and GF won’t really carry much weight if it ever went to court. The cost of such a legal document is around ฿30-50,000, and its primary purpose is to to cement the idea in her mind that the deposit is not joint property. He said the only real protection is to supply 50% of the purchase price so your name is on the land registry documents. As such I think the best course of action is to increase my percentage to 50% (in 3 years time) after the fixed mortgage period runs out and get my name on the title.

Do you think she is going to agree to this later? Dream on sucker. That is assuming you are still together and she has not already kicked you out of HER condo.

 

Any businessman will tell you that you must have control of your investment.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by DaRoadrunner

[torturedsole]

13 hours ago, London Boy said:

You really should read previous posts before replying. As previous explained, settlelement is not untill the 23rd june and the deposit money of ฿1.3million is still in the Uk, in a Nationwide ISA only earning 0.01%. So now is very much the right time to ask this question.

Thanks for clarifying.  In that case you appear to have received a resounding answer to your question and can understand you being somewhat testy with ฿1.3m on the line.  

 

I also think you're barking if you're going to gamble ฿1.3m with no hope of clawback if your relationship heads south.  

 

Once again, be reminded that your bargain purchase might not be a bargain purchase in six or twelve months time when the market bottoms out then it's negative equity which doesn't matter if you don't plan on selling, but still.  

 

[FalangJaiDee]

A cursory look through the mountains of anecdotal evidence here should've already given you more than enough reason to realize this is a bad idea. If you split, she gets the house. There's no effective legal mechanism to enforce anything you want in Thailand. Thais win every time. 

[London Boy]

11 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

How you or OP work out it's worth 5.2?

It's worth what someone pays.

Also costs come off deposit. So with transfers and legal etc they might have ~ 1.2mill. ÷ by 4.2 = under 30% equity.

For 46 year old? Into 2 yr relationship

The guy is crazy.

The only reason half possible is that interest rates for deposits in banks are currently zip.

This not a brag but fact. In April I had 500k aud deposit mature Australia. I had s.h.i.t rate 2.65 % . My new offer rollover was 1%.

So if you have money perhaps good time to buy real estate not crazy as opportunity cost record low. Buying shares better idea.

OP idea not even on Bell curve.

You work out its value but looking at retrospective sales and seeing as many units in the same block as you can to gain a benchmark. As I mentioned before this is my 12th property I've bought 9 in London and 2 in Auckland. I'd like to think I know what I'm doing by now. The opportunity costs is what Ive already paid in rent in the last 6 years and comparing that on what I will pay in the next 6 years. So far my rent my total rent in that time is £25,000 or $50,000 NZ. So buying this condo will mean Im not kicki ng myself in 6 years time thinking another 25k has gone on rent with nothing to show for it. Before you ask me why dont I buy it in cash if i own so many properties, the answer is  becasue I've been able to buy so many properties using leverage, using a slittle as my own money and as much as the banks money. If I had a work permit, I would borrow the money myself, but since I don't, this is the next best scenario.

[London Boy]

3 hours ago, FalangJaiDee said:

A cursory look through the mountains of anecdotal evidence here should've already given you more than enough reason to realize this is a bad idea. If you split, she gets the house. There's no effective legal mechanism to enforce anything you want in Thailand. Thais win every time. 

No doubt but every relationship, just like alot of property deals is a leap of faith. Nothing ventured nothing gained

[chrisandsu]

3 minutes ago, London Boy said:

You work out its value but looking at retrospective sales and seeing as many units in the same block as you can to gain a benchmark. As I mentioned before this is my 12th property I've bought 9 in London and 2 in Auckland. I'd like to think I know what I'm doing by now. The opportunity costs is what Ive already paid in rent in the last 6 years and comparing that on what I will pay in the next 6 years. So far my rent my total rent in that time is £25,000 or $50,000 NZ. So buying this condo will mean Im not kicki ng myself in 6 years time thinking another 25k has gone on rent with nothing to show for it. Before you ask me why dont I buy it in cash if i own so many properties, the answer is  becasue I've been able to buy so many properties using leverage, using a slittle as my own money and as much as the banks money. If I had a work permit, I would borrow the money myself, but since I don't, this is the next best scenario.

How long is the loan term ? If it’s 25 years plus you won’t even get close to getting much off the principle and you will have to do all the maintenance yourself . Which would effectively put yourself in the same place as renting ! I never recommend for anyone to buy in Thailand as buying is very easy but selling is a totally different ball game . Good luck though 

[London Boy]

11 hours ago, samran said:

It makes no sense for you. 
 

Paying 15K rent you don’t own any property at the end of your lease but you still have 1.3m baht.

 

You get this mortgage and at the end you will not own any property and be down 1.3m baht.  
 

Makes sense for your GF though. She pays 4800 a month and comes away with 5million baht in property. Deal of the century!

 

On a seperate note, you are mad to be buying something now. Haven’t you noticed that the world economy has gone tits up? Wait 12 months and people will be begging you to buy at a large discount. 

Back in July 2008 I bought a two bed flat a few minutes walk from Turnpike lane tube station in North London. I paid £195,000 for it, and it previously been on the market for £265,000). Everyone said I was mad as we were in the middle of the GFC prices were droping, and liquidity was drying up. The most common phrase at the time was 'wait until we reach the bottom of the market'. Very hard to predict in my opinion and it also depnds on the circumstances of the seller. 12 years on said property is worth £430,000 and I've made a ton of cash from the rent as interest rates in the Uk have been so low over the last 11 years. So while I appreciate people give advice based on their own life experiences, you also have to belive in what your doing as well, and take a few risks, if you want to get ahead in life.

[BritManToo]

7 minutes ago, London Boy said:

So while I appreciate people give advice based on their own life experiences, you also have to belive in what your doing as well, and take a few risks, if you want to get ahead in life.

So you're comparing a property you can buy in your name in a country in which you have the right to live .......

With giving a girlfriend money to buy a place in her name in a country where you can be arrested and deported forever over the joint your gf left in your jacket pocket before she called the cops.

 

Not to mention COVID, a new player in town, where all foreigners can be refused entry for as long as the government feels like.

 

PS

Living with a woman is an easy way to lose a property in almost any country.

I lost my 600,000 pound home in the UK with unexpected ease to the woman I loved.

If only I'd rented ............

Edited June 4, 2020 by BritManToo

[samran]

1 hour ago, London Boy said:

Back in July 2008 I bought a two bed flat a few minutes walk from Turnpike lane tube station in North London. I paid £195,000 for it, and it previously been on the market for £265,000). Everyone said I was mad as we were in the middle of the GFC prices were droping, and liquidity was drying up. The most common phrase at the time was 'wait until we reach the bottom of the market'. Very hard to predict in my opinion and it also depnds on the circumstances of the seller. 12 years on said property is worth £430,000 and I've made a ton of cash from the rent as interest rates in the Uk have been so low over the last 11 years. So while I appreciate people give advice based on their own life experiences, you also have to belive in what your doing as well, and take a few risks, if you want to get ahead in life.

That's well and good, and if you manage to make a similar return here i'll be the first to congratulate you.

 

Just one note about second hand condos in Thailand. It’s viewed as second hand. And priced accordingly. 

 

As to your UK investment. There is one glaring difference - you had formal property rights on the place in the UK. You'll have no recourse to your money here.

Edited June 4, 2020 by samran