France's Le Drian blames Britain's 'attitude' for Brexit talks impasse

[Rookiescot]

11 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Trade deals can help if they are good deals, that's why we're currently deep in talks with the likes of the US, Australia, Japan. We've taken the EU blinkers off and we're opening ourselves up with a truly global outlook. And the EU are bricking it. Once out of their failing protectionist racket we'll go from strength to strength and they know it, hence the request to handcuff us in their level playing field.

 

However, as I demonstrated with my graphic it's still possible to do massive amounts of trade on WTO. Trade doesn't stop because of a lack of a free trade deal. That 43% won't stop overnight. It may have tariffs, it may reduce to the EU and increase to non EU countries. We have too many eggs in that EU basket anyway, I'd rather start diversifying and this is the perfect opportunity. When the EU crumbles (it's started already), we don't want to go down with it.

 

 

Deluded. Pure and simple. Still believing in the "They need us more than we need them" mantra. 

We will see come January. Because we are not getting any deal.

[Logosone]

26 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

As I've said before, the only up side of the EU is the trade deals they have. It started as a trading block after all. Everything else that came later is the down side.

 

So yes, if we can leave and replicate all those deals then we've removed the down sides and kept the upside. A massive win.

 

Regain our fishing waters, regain control of borders, regain sovereignty, make independent trade deals around the world, stop participating in the EU's transfer of wealth scheme to the poorer southern/eastern "states" etc etc.

 

It's hilarious that people claim replicating the EU's deals with third parties while outside the EU isn't a huge win. It's massive. It's perfect. It's exactly what we want. That's why they want to tie us up in all their red tape after we've left. Because they know that once the shackles are off they have a huge problem with a competitor right on their doorstep. They've even admitted it. Imagine if we replicate all the deals they made and then add our own with the US, Australia, NZ etc. That's their biggest nightmare and exactly why they are desperate to keep us on the level playing field.

 

And guess what, it's happening as we speak. Sure it's slow, trade deals are always slow. But it's happening. We just have to hold our nerve and leave with a clean Brexit in December.

So you think it is a massive win to be able to trade on the same terms as you had before. Because now you can "regain sovereignty, regain control of borders, regain fishing waters" and not transfer wealth to other EU countries.

 

However, with the exception of the last point, where clearly you do have a point the EU is a wealth transfer scheme for the benefit of southern and eastern European countries to a large degree, all the other points are just imaginations.

 

You can not regain what you never lost, the UK always had sovereignty as illustrated by the exit itself which proves that was the case. In terms of regaining control of borders the UK is doing no such thing but still allowing East Europeans in. In terms of fishing, most of the catch of the UK is caught by international companies and not UK companies anyway, but either way it is a miniscule portion of the UK economy.

 

So none of these gains are real gains, just fantasies or misunderstandings, in fact even the exit from the wealth transfer of the EU will be offset by an even higher figure that will be payable in tariffs to EU countries in future exports to the EU. Because the UK will be unable to stop exporting to the EU, no matter how hard Brexiters would wish that to be the case, it will not happen. For instance for all your herring, it is the EU that is the main market. You will not be able to sell it to Australia, Canada or Barbados.

 

So by exiting the EU you have gained literally nothing, but have lost free access to your main market, free travel and movement in the EU and the ability to negotiate international trade deals on the back of huge leverage. 

 

If trade was the biggest and most important factor, surely exiting the EU was a fail, because it gave the UK no advantage in terms of trade. What are the advantages? When you set them off against restrictive rules, and loss of access for the City of London, do those advantages still look so good? Again trade deals by themselves do not boost business in the UK.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Logosone

[transam]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

It seems you support a UK government which had the plan to leave the EU and which promised to make great trade deals with everybody. But you didn't ask or even think that it is important to know how that bright future will look like. I have to warn you, you might find out that the alternative to the EU is not any better than the EU. But then again if you would inform yourself and listen then you would know that already.

But we would be rid of "your lot"..........................................

[JonnyF]

19 minutes ago, Logosone said:

If trade was the biggest and most important factor, surely exiting the EU was a fail, because it gave the UK no advantage in terms of trade. What are the advantages? When you set them off against restrictive rules, and loss of access for the City of London, do those advantages still look so good? Again trade deals by themselves do not boost business in the UK.

Trade was never the biggest factor for Leavers, that's the Remainer argument. 

 

The biggest factor was getting out of the EU federalist project. I do not want to be a citizen of one of 28 EU member 'states' in a United States of Europe led by a German Franco alliance. I want to be British. I want the British government to make ALL of the laws and regulations that I live by. That was always number 1 for me. People deny there is such a move to a United States of Europe (complete with an Army) but time will prove me to be correct, if the bloc doesn't collapse in the meantime.

 

As for trade, my belief is that it is better to have a more global outlook than being the 'frog in the coconut shell' that Remainers have become. I want to escape the protectionist racket that penalizes trading outside the bloc. I want the UK to open up to the world. We have too many eggs in that EU basket and I believe the bloc will most likely fail over the next 10-15 years. I want out now, 100% out, and thankfully I will get my wish. If it costs a few % of GDP in the short term that is a price worth paying. I believe in the medium term the UK will flourish with a more open policy towards trading with the rest of the world.

 

Ultimately none of us know for sure what will happen economically, C19 is a great example of how everything can flip upside down in a couple of months. I don't believe that trading with the EU on WTO terms will be a disaster. I think trade will gradually shift away from the EU and to places like the US, South America, Australia, India etc. over the next 5-10 years.

 

[Rimmer]

A baiting troll post has been removed

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

When the EU crumbles (it's started already), we don't want to go down with it.

Seems a " Project Fear " revisited.

[evadgib]

7 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

Seems a " Project Fear " revisited.

Not this end ????

Edited September 2, 2020 by evadgib

[luckyluke]

18 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

I want the British government to make ALL of the laws and regulations that I live by.

 

Belgium makes all laws and regulations for their citizens ( The amount of pensions is the one I like the most ).

If of course it is different in the U.K., and the E.U. interfere that much, I won't be pleased too.

 Assuming their interference's are negative for the man in the street. 

 

[luckyluke]

5 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Not this end ????

Sorry, not clever enough to understand.

Or maybe some kind of British humour. 

[Loiner]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

You could believe the experts, or at least listen to them.

And no, Boris is no expert.

Experts? Like you on TVF??

You better preach to your other Europhiles. They will believe you. 

 

Fortunately Boris has the experts working for him. 

[pixelaoffy]

The europhiles who just don't get democracy and independence . In fact if you dig deep into their warped view of the world they have this ' world Government ' fantasy! No belief in a nation state ! No borders and one currency.

Edited September 2, 2020 by pixelaoffy

[nauseus]

9 hours ago, candide said:

I agree with you that, after numerous years of membership and contribution to the design of the current EU, UK politicians could not be unaware of the likely behaviour of the EU.

What is a bit more annoying is that it's not at all what has been promised...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy

Don't be annoyed too much. If you read these quotes, most of them were suggestions and not promises.  

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

Seems a " Project Fear " revisited.

Remainers owned PF. You are confused.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, luckyluke said:

 

Belgium makes all laws and regulations for their citizens ( The amount of pensions is the one I like the most ).

If of course it is different in the U.K., and the E.U. interfere that much, I won't be pleased too.

 Assuming their interference's are negative for the man in the street. 

 

As an EU member it is impossible that Belgium makes all of its own laws and regulations.

 

The EU will likely get around to pensions one day too; they will probably start with a wee tax on them.

[oldhippy]

40 minutes ago, pixelaoffy said:

The europhiles who just don't get democracy and independence . In fact if you dig deep into their warped view of the world they have this ' world Government ' fantasy! No belief in a nation state ! No borders and one currency.

The nation state was a 19th century invention, causing as many wars as religion.....

 

Where is the 19th century now?

 

[Logosone]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Trade was never the biggest factor for Leavers, that's the Remainer argument. 

 

The biggest factor was getting out of the EU federalist project. I do not want to be a citizen of one of 28 EU member 'states' in a United States of Europe led by a German Franco alliance. I want to be British. I want the British government to make ALL of the laws and regulations that I live by. That was always number 1 for me. People deny there is such a move to a United States of Europe (complete with an Army) but time will prove me to be correct, if the bloc doesn't collapse in the meantime.

 

As for trade, my belief is that it is better to have a more global outlook than being the 'frog in the coconut shell' that Remainers have become. I want to escape the protectionist racket that penalizes trading outside the bloc. I want the UK to open up to the world. We have too many eggs in that EU basket and I believe the bloc will most likely fail over the next 10-15 years. I want out now, 100% out, and thankfully I will get my wish. If it costs a few % of GDP in the short term that is a price worth paying. I believe in the medium term the UK will flourish with a more open policy towards trading with the rest of the world.

 

Ultimately none of us know for sure what will happen economically, C19 is a great example of how everything can flip upside down in a couple of months. I don't believe that trading with the EU on WTO terms will be a disaster. I think trade will gradually shift away from the EU and to places like the US, South America, Australia, India etc. over the next 5-10 years.

 

I think you are right, most Brexit voters saw the vote more as an emotional British identity issue and the fear of the all-encompassing United States of Europe is then nothing more than the impotent fear of losing British identity and power. Because some view British power as so in danger by a larger United States of Europe they were afraid and wanted to get out. You would still have been British, but I suppose there is a fear that the United States of Europe comes and is more powerful than Britain would be. I still don't see what advantages you get in making all of the laws and regulations you live by, and of course that will never be the case anyway since the UK has to live by US, EU and many other regulations even after Brexit.

 

You believe the UK will flourish. But people only believe where they do not know. There is no evidence to believe a golden age is around the corner for the UK. Quite the opposite when one looks at the UK economy in depth.

 

Trading with the EU on WTO terms will involve tariffs on a level a little higher than Britain's contribution to the EU budget, it's not a disaster but it's not exactly a better position either. Trade will never shift away from the EU because geographic proximity is a key factor in trade, unless you're a China or USA, which clearly the UK is not. Look at fish, you will never sell your herring anywhere else but in Europe, no other market will buy it. And btw, the UK is in greater danger of breaking apart than the EU is.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Logosone

[luckyluke]

34 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Remainers owned PF. You are confused.

Copy-cat than. 

[Dene16]

On 8/31/2020 at 12:33 PM, RayC said:

France and Spain's insistence on keeping the same deal re fishing rights in UK waters might also be viewed as being "intransigent and unrealistic".

I read only yesterday that Eu fleets catch 4 times the amount of fish in British waters than the UK

Many french fishermen catch 70 to 80% of their fish in British waters

Macron tried everything he could to make an example of the Uk for leaving the EU. A possible deal could of been made if it were not for him who attempted to thwart any type of deal. I hope he truly suffers for his obstinate stance

[luckyluke]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

As an EU member it is impossible that Belgium makes all of its own laws and regulations.

 

The EU will likely get around to pensions one day too; they will probably start with a wee tax on them.

Maybe, I don't know.

It would be normal I suppose, this E.U. thing must have a reason to exist.

However, as mention several times, except the installment of the Euro, I haven't personally experienced any changement in my daily life.

 

I suppose taxes on pensions will increase one day.

There is now a difference of about 350

euro monthly between my gross and net amount.

Edited September 2, 2020 by luckyluke

[JonnyF]

48 minutes ago, Logosone said:

I think you are right, most Brexit voters saw the vote more as an emotional British identity issue and the fear of the all-encompassing United States of Europe is then nothing more than the impotent fear of losing British identity and power. Because some view British power as so in danger by a larger United States of Europe they were afraid and wanted to get out. You would still have been British, but I suppose there is a fear that the United States of Europe comes and is more powerful than Britain would be. I still don't see what advantages you get in making all of the laws and regulations you live by, and of course that will never be the case anyway since the UK has to live by US, EU and many other regulations even after Brexit.

 

You believe the UK will flourish. But people only believe where they do not know. There is no evidence to believe a golden age is around the corner for the UK. Quite the opposite when one looks at the UK economy in depth.

 

Trading with the EU on WTO terms will involve tariffs on a level a little higher than Britain's contribution to the EU budget, it's not a disaster but it's not exactly a better position either. Trade will never shift away from the EU because geographic proximity is a key factor in trade, unless you're a China or USA, which clearly the UK is not. Look at fish, you will never sell your herring anywhere else but in Europe, no other market will buy it. And btw, the UK is in greater danger of breaking apart than the EU is.

I want laws to be proposed and voted for by politicians that I elect. Not several layers in between to create the illusion of Democracy as we have in the EU. I want laws to benefit Britain voted for by our Parliament, not laws made in Brussels to benefit the struggling southern states at our expense. I want my taxes spent in Britain, not propping up failed economic policies in Greece, why should it? Nothing emotional about that, it makes perfect sense. Would Americans want their tax going to pay for pensions in Venezuela? Would Thais want their taxes going to pay for bailing out poor fiscal management in Cambodia? Would Thais let Malaysians take all their fish from their waters? Of course not. It's not stupid, it's perfectly logical. 

 

You don't know what will happen to the UK or EU economy any more than I do. We'll just have to wait and see. If Italexit happens the EU will really be up the creek without a paddle. Who knows what will happen with second and third waves of C19 when winter comes? At least now, the UK won't be liable for the C19 bailout fund now.

 

The UK won't break up. There's a 10% chance that Scotland might leave eventually if their nationalists are stupid enough but if they do then frankly, good riddance.

[Rimmer]

Multiple off topic posts discussing UK pensions have been removed

[Loiner]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

The EU published their plans. You can look it up everywhere.

And pssst, there is no hidden plan B to make Boris happy in the last minute.

Did it say they were going to obstruct the process so UK can leave No Deal? Great. 

They are already making the rest of us happy, so no worries. So long as neither of them folds at the last minute. 

[Surelynot]

The stance made it “very difficult to make progress”, with just weeks to find a solution to avoid a crash-out Brexit on 1 January and massive disruption, he warned.

 

'He' being a No 10 spokesperson........massive disruption??? What the.......I thought we were heading to the sunny uplands once we crashed out......where has this idea of massive disruption suddenly come from?

[Logosone]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I want laws to be proposed and voted for by politicians that I elect. Not several layers in between to create the illusion of Democracy as we have in the EU. I want laws to benefit Britain voted for by our Parliament, not laws made in Brussels to benefit the struggling southern states at our expense. I want my taxes spent in Britain, not propping up failed economic policies in Greece, why should it? Nothing emotional about that, it makes perfect sense. Would Americans want their tax going to pay for pensions in Venezuela? Would Thais want their taxes going to pay for bailing out poor fiscal management in Cambodia? Would Thais let Malaysians take all their fish from their waters? Of course not. It's not stupid, it's perfectly logical. 

 

You don't know what will happen to the UK or EU economy any more than I do. We'll just have to wait and see. If Italexit happens the EU will really be up the creek without a paddle. Who knows what will happen with second and third waves of C19 when winter comes? At least now, the UK won't be liable for the C19 bailout fund now.

 

The UK won't break up. There's a 10% chance that Scotland might leave eventually if their nationalists are stupid enough but if they do then frankly, good riddance.

You can't demand on the one had that there be fully elected EU officials with political power and on the other that there be no United States of Europe. The MEPs have limited power because there is no United States of Europe, hence the real decisions are made by the Commission and governments. If there were a full United States of Europe perhaps MEPs would have more power.

 

Many EU laws benefit Britain. It was EU law that stopped the LSE being taken over by a German group. 

 

However I do agree that the wealth transfer is going too far and likewise I deeply object to German taxpayer money being squandered in Greece, Poland etc.

 

I don't think Italy can organise an Italexit, that's expecting a bit much. 

 

But yes, in terms of members paying for the C19 bailout fund, it's again criminal and reckless spending by the EU which is a real problem, as is immigration.

[OneMoreFarang]

4 hours ago, Loiner said:

Fortunately Boris has the experts working for him. 

Trump has also lots of experts working for him.

But both have the problem that they don't listen and/or don't care.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, luckyluke said:

Maybe, I don't know.

It would be normal I suppose, this E.U. thing must have a reason to exist.

However, as mention several times, except the installment of the Euro, I haven't personally experienced any changement in my daily life.

 

I suppose taxes on pensions will increase one day.

There is now a difference of about 350

euro monthly between my gross and net amount.

Yes, many haven't noticed the subtle, stealthy changes.

 

I hope your pensions don't get taxed more. Good luck.

[pixelaoffy]

6 hours ago, oldhippy said:

The nation state was a 19th century invention, causing as many wars as religion.....

 

Where is the 19th century now?

 

There we go, There's one of those I referred to ,crawled out from under a rock 

[luckyluke]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes, many haven't noticed the subtle, stealthy changes.

 

I hope your pensions don't get taxed more. Good luck.

Well if I continue to not notice them in my daily life, they can not be that important for the man in the street. 

 I suppose my government (in command of the E.U., or not) will soon or later also increase the taxes. 

Will also see next year if there will be a 2% increase on all salaries and dividends, as usual. 

I once again repeat myself, as per now, since 1993, and except the implementation of the Euro, I am not aware of any changement of a any importance due to this E.U. thing. 

It may change next year. 

If there are ultra negative noticeable changing, 

the British(Brexit) will be blamed for it in my country. 

It is always the fault of another. 

I read here already regularly, by some British posters, that everything negative in  the U.K., was, is, and will be, the fault of the E.U..

Will see, maybe much ado about nothing, and the E.U. and the U.K., will simply continue to prosper.

 

And Kevin De Bruyne will continue to play for Manchester City. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by luckyluke

[3NUMBAS]

like as in mexican drug cartels blame police for their falling cocaine sales ,uk joined a common market not a 28 strong USO europe with a cartel in charge in brussels running  a giant ponzi scheme

[oldhippy]

2 hours ago, pixelaoffy said:

There we go, There's one of those I referred to ,crawled out from under a rock 

At least I live under a 21th century rock, unlike you, under your 19th century rock.

Time for a clean up.

Did you know you lost India? Did that news reach you under YOUR rock?