UK minister surprised by Scottish independence referendum move

[herfiehandbag]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

They were almost conquered by the Germans had the Americans and the Russians not helped.

 The time at which the threat of invasion and "conquering!" by the Germans was faced was  between May 1940 and spring 1941. 

 

At that time the Soviet Union was an ally of Germany. Germany attacked the Soviet Union in June 1941. The Soviet counterattack, which led to the eventual defeat of Germany did not begin until Stalingrad in February 1943. The major Soviet blow, which broke the German Armies on the Eastern front was "Operation Bagration" in June 1944. America did not enter the War unti. December 1941.

 

We were not almost conquered, and the Americans and Russians did not, at that period, help.

 

I realise that this is not strictly relevant to the topic, but you raised a sweeping and historically very inaccurate statement, which could not go unanswered.

Edited September 3, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[evadgib]

5 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

The time at which the threat of invasion and "conquering!" by the Germans was between May 1940 and spring 1941. 

 

At that time the Soviet Union was an ally of Germany. Germany attacked the Soviet Union in June 1941. The Soviet counterattack, which led to the eventual defeat of Germany did not begin until Stalingrad in February 1943. The major Soviet blow, which broke the German Armies on the Eastern front was "Operation Bagration" in June 1944. America did not enter the War unti. December 1941.

 

We were not almost conquered, and the Americans and Russians did not, at that period, help.

Correct, We weren't! ????

Edited September 3, 2020 by evadgib

[robblok]

17 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

 The time at which the threat of invasion and "conquering!" by the Germans was faced was  between May 1940 and spring 1941. 

 

At that time the Soviet Union was an ally of Germany. Germany attacked the Soviet Union in June 1941. The Soviet counterattack, which led to the eventual defeat of Germany did not begin until Stalingrad in February 1943. The major Soviet blow, which broke the German Armies on the Eastern front was "Operation Bagration" in June 1944. America did not enter the War unti. December 1941.

 

We were not almost conquered, and the Americans and Russians did not, at that period, help.

 

I realise that this is not strictly relevant to the topic, but you raised a sweeping and historically very inaccurate statement, which could not go unanswered.

Wow talk about omission of the american supplies you got. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

What is wrong with the irony of the UK leaving the EU and Scotland leaving UK. I mean it would be truly funny that those who voted to leave from nationalistic reasons now all of a sudden lose a lot land and become a lot smaller.

 

I mean if you don't see the humor in that then you have no humor. Of course your on the other side so you would probably bash your face in with.. dammm there are consequences to a brexit that you dont like.

As you continue to point out - the jokes on us - well at least you find it all so funny.

[Scott Tracy]

As an Englishman first and a Brit second, I was disappointed that the Scottish independence referendum failed and also disappointed when the referendum to remain part of, or leave the EU returned the result it did.

 

If the Scots wish to leave the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I wish them well. If they wish to rejoin the EU, that would then be a matter for an independent Scotland, along with the requisite 'hard' border, along Hadrian's Wall would be an ideal place.

If Northern Ireland wishes to join with the Republic of Ireland, so be it. Good luck to them too and no hard feelings. Makes Borders easier to police on both sides.

 

If time comes that England is just England, with Wales either fully devolved or Independent, I do not feel that England would fail in the long term.

The empire was built by the UK, not just England and it is now gone.

To have enmity towards someone, like 'the Germans' for example, means there has to be or have been some emotion there at some stage. The authorities tried to instill in the population of the UK during the wars that the axis powers were evil and nasty, but that plan failed as it's not the sort of thing the 'Brits' do.

And, as the Thai PM said yesterday, that is in the past.

 

I for one, do not 'hate' anyone, or any nation. I do though, think that perhaps some of the rhetoric both here and by politicians needs to be toned down a little, and especially the personal comments and sarcastic responses.

I also think politicians not directly involved with the current UK and the EU negotiations should shut up as all they do is make people annoyed with their grandstanding. 

 

Anyway, thank you for the opportunity of writing this and best wishes to everyone.

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

As you continue to point out - the jokes on us - well at least you find it all so funny.

Yes i find it funny, breaking off from the EU and now the Scots want to do the same and the Brexiteers start to cry. So yes its funny. Shows how well the great Brexit leader thought it trough. 

[cmarshall]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I do know that many in the UK seem to still hate the Germans. Not sure why maybe some sort of misplaced pride. They were almost conquered by the Germans had the Americans and the Russians not helped. So it pays to be part of a bigger thing. Strange that the UK did not learn that lessen. But only learned to hate.

 

Had the Americans and Russians not helped??  Really?  Wasn't the "helping" altogether the other way around.  German was defeated by the Soviets while the Americans and British engaged in minor diversions in N. Africa and Italy.  After failing to keep their promise to Stalin to open a second front in the West in 1942, and then again in 1943, they finally did so in 1944 by which point victory for the Red Army was imminent.  In fact, they probably invaded France only to prevent the Russians from continuing right on to the Atlantic.

 

Britain's achievement in WWII was to pick the right side.  The British Army had exactly one victory during the war at El Al-amein.  All the decisive battles were in the East or in the Pacific from which the British disappeard.

 

Old war movies don't provide the most reliable histories.

[nauseus]

47 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

That won’t stop the Scottish people from leaving it seems. 

 

 

Brexit has achieved that already. 

Well it did last time.

 

Brexit has actually highlighted the significance of the UK. We in the news every day!

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes i find it funny, breaking off from the EU and now the Scots want to do the same and the Brexiteers start to cry. So yes its funny. Shows how well the great Brexit leader thought it trough. 

Which great leader are you talking about? Chubby Brown?

[Katipo]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

This Indy2 stuff started right after the Brexit vote, way before Boris was PM, which is only just over a year now. 

Indeed it did. But it has certainly gained more momentum since Boris was made PM. Also, even before he was PM he was a very vocal Brexit supporter since at least 2015, and including when he was Foreign Secretary from 2016 onwards.

[evadgib]

42 minutes ago, Scott Tracy said:

As an Englishman first and a Brit second, I was disappointed that the Scottish independence referendum failed and also disappointed when the referendum to remain part of, or leave the EU returned the result it did.

 

If the Scots wish to leave the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, I wish them well. If they wish to rejoin the EU, that would then be a matter for an independent Scotland, along with the requisite 'hard' border, along Hadrian's Wall would be an ideal place.

If Northern Ireland wishes to join with the Republic of Ireland, so be it. Good luck to them too and no hard feelings. Makes Borders easier to police on both sides.

 

If time comes that England is just England, with Wales either fully devolved or Independent, I do not feel that England would fail in the long term.

The empire was built by the UK, not just England and it is now gone.

To have enmity towards someone, like 'the Germans' for example, means there has to be or have been some emotion there at some stage. The authorities tried to instill in the population of the UK during the wars that the axis powers were evil and nasty, but that plan failed as it's not the sort of thing the 'Brits' do.

And, as the Thai PM said yesterday, that is in the past.

 

I for one, do not 'hate' anyone, or any nation. I do though, think that perhaps some of the rhetoric both here and by politicians needs to be toned down a little, and especially the personal comments and sarcastic responses.

I also think politicians not directly involved with the current UK and the EU negotiations should shut up as all they do is make people annoyed with their grandstanding. 

 

Anyway, thank you for the opportunity of writing this and best wishes to everyone.

- Scotland wouldn't be rejoining as they have never been a member.

 

- Wales has been part of the Kingdom since the reign of Henry viii. 

 

[evadgib]

51 minutes ago, Scott Tracy said:

 

 

<Double tap>

Edited September 3, 2020 by evadgib

[robblok]

16 minutes ago, evadgib said:

 

<Double tap>

ex SAS by any chance ????

 

 

[Rookiescot]

Why is this a surprise to anyone?

Brexiteers were warned during the referendum that voting leave could cause the break up of the UK.

They chose to ignore those warnings.

Now its happening and its coming as a shock?

You got what you voted for.

[jak2002003]

7 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Majority of Scots now want independence and Brexiteers fly into a panic.

If Scotland has such a huge deficit (it does not) why are you English/British nationalist so desperate to keep paying for it?

If Scotland has such a huge deficit (it does not) how is that a good advertisment for remaining in the Union? If a country so resource rich as Scotland is flat broke then its because of the union. Its because we are tied to Westminster.

Scotland voted to remain in the EU. We are being dragged out against our will. We want back in.

 

I am hoping that Scotland does get independence and the sooner the better. 

 

Then i hope they grant Scottish passports to people who have Scottish ancestry (similar way the Irish do of you are part Irish) so I can get back in the EU again. Then I would leave Thailand and settle in Scotland. 

 

I want to leave Thaoland..but no way I would go back to the Independent failing UK with none of the good laws and benefits to being in the EU. 

 

[herfiehandbag]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Wow talk about omission of the american supplies you got. 

Ah yes, Lend - Lease. Signed into law by the President of The United States on March 11 1941. By which time the immediate threat of invasion had rather subsided.

 

If you are going to argue "robblok" you could at least try to do so from some basis of factual knowledge!

[robblok]

6 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Ah yes, Lend - Lease. Signed into law by the President of The United States on March 11 1941. By which time the immediate threat of invasion had rather subsided.

 

If you are going to argue "robblok" you could at least try to do so from some basis of factual knowledge!

Before that time there was help already. But please keep thinking the UK won the war itself like all those other nationalists. You guys make me laugh. Without the US and USSR the UK would be speaking German. You guys fended off Hitlers first attacks. If Hitler had won from the Sovjets then the Uk would have been next. 

 

Not that you guys were not already conquered by the Germans, the Norse and French. 

[puipuitom]

7 hours ago, kingdong said:

and if you do get your wish and your independence,don,t come whingeing back when the eu wants handouts from you like they did from the uk,you kak your bed and you lay in it.and by the way its sown not sewn.

The EU member contribution is based on the economic strength of that member state. When Scotland is really so poor as the Brexiteers say, big chance Scotland gets in a lot of EU support money. But then the Scots have their own voice inside the EU and not only Westminster speaking. With some Scotish luck, Nicola nr 28th in the EU council.

[nauseus]

55 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Why is this a surprise to anyone?

Brexiteers were warned during the referendum that voting leave could cause the break up of the UK.

They chose to ignore those warnings.

Now its happening and its coming as a shock?

You got what you voted for.

Yeah, we should have been too scared and just caved in.   

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, puipuitom said:

The EU member contribution is based on the economic strength of that member state. When Scotland is really so poor as the Brexiteers say, big chance Scotland gets in a lot of EU support money. But then the Scots have their own voice inside the EU and not only Westminster speaking. With some Scotish luck, Nicola nr 28th in the EU council.

????

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

Before that time there was help already. But please keep thinking the UK won the war itself like all those other nationalists. You guys make me laugh. Without the US and USSR the UK would be speaking German. You guys fended off Hitlers first attacks. If Hitler had won from the Sovjets then the Uk would have been next. 

 

Not that you guys were not already conquered by the Germans, the Norse and French. 

Do I hear a pot calling? Or a samovar?

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Why should Boris need to worry about Cameron's 'promises'?  

You would have to show me where I said "worry", maybe "forget" means the same thing to you.

Bojo has certainly followed in Cameron's footsteps, forgetting his own promises as well as others made in the name of the Tories.

"Broken" is more than appropriate.

[Adelphi]

As a Scot I always felt that we were stronger together regardless of the internal tensions.  Unfortunately IMO the Brexiteers have pushed the UK internal tensions to breaking point.  I think given the exit deal that that Boris negotiated from the EU that it is now a question of when, and not if, Northern Ireland joins the rest of Ireland.  Like many other Scott's I know; I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is no longer fit for purpose and Scotland should become an independent country again.  Thankfully the EU have made it clear that we will be fast tracked into the EU as all of our Regulations etc. are still EU compliant.  I hope that we can part on good terms as I have so many very good friends south of the border.  I wish nothing but the very best for the rest of the UK, even if my country is no longer a member of that union.   As an aside I do find it very funny how so many Brexiteers struggle with the concept of "Scotland taking back control". 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Adelphi

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Adelphi said:

As a Scott I always felt that we were stronger together regardless of the internal tensions.  Unfortunately IMO the Brexiteers have pushed the UK internal tensions to breaking point.  I think given the exit deal that that Boris negotiated from the EU that it is now a question of when, and not if, Northern Ireland joins the rest of Ireland.  Like many other Scott's I know; I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the UK is no longer fit for purpose and Scotland should become an independent country again.  Thankfully the EU have made it clear that we will be fast tracked into the EU as all of our Regulations etc. are still EU compliant.  I hope that we can part on good terms as I have so many very good friends south of the border.  I wish nothing but the very best for the rest of the UK, even if my country is no longer a member of that union.   As an aside I do find it very funny how so many Brexiteers struggle with the concept of "Scotland taking back control". 

Scott?

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, Katipo said:

Indeed it did. But it has certainly gained more momentum since Boris was made PM. Also, even before he was PM he was a very vocal Brexit supporter since at least 2015, and including when he was Foreign Secretary from 2016 onwards.

A total of 63 countries have gained independence from Westminster rule, absolutely no reason why Scotland should not have the opportunity to make it 64, after all the the UK government spoke up in favour of independence during the court case regarding the Kosovo UDI.

Problem Scotland faces is that Bojo is fundamentally 2 faced and hasn't got the baxxs to tell the queen he won brexit but lost both unions.

 

 

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Why is this a surprise to anyone?

Brexiteers were warned during the referendum that voting leave could cause the break up of the UK.

They chose to ignore those warnings.

Now its happening and its coming as a shock?

You got what you voted for.

You make it sound like we'd be sad to see Scotland leave.

 

A lot of us would be perfectly happy for the Scots to leave. It would be amusing to see you trying to form a new currency (or continuing to use the pound and becoming like Panama using the dollar with zero control over it) while you begged the EU to let you into their failing protectionist racket. Then seeing the EU pull your pants down for an inferior form of membership to that which the UK had. 

 

Pass me the popcorn, we could do with a laugh.

 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

You make it sound like we'd be sad to see Scotland leave.

 

A lot of us would be perfectly happy for the Scots to leave. It would be amusing to see you trying to form a new currency (or continuing to use the pound and becoming like Panama using the dollar with zero control over it) while you begged the EU to let you into their failing protectionist racket. Then seeing the EU pull your pants down for an inferior form of membership to that which the UK had. 

 

Pass me the popcorn, we could do with a laugh.

 

Have a word with your fellow Brexiteers then Jonny. They seem in quite a tizzy over the thought of Scottish independence.

Not sure we will need to beg the EU for admittance. Scotland has got plenty going for it and already complies with EU regulations.

And of course it does have all that territorial waters to tempt those EU fishermen with.

 

  

 

Doesn't Englands territorial fishing waters look really small?

[hotandsticky]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Have a word with your fellow Brexiteers then Jonny. They seem in quite a tizzy over the thought of Scottish independence.

Not sure we will need to beg the EU for admittance. Scotland has got plenty going for it and already complies with EU regulations.

And of course it does have all that territorial waters to tempt those EU fishermen with.

 

  

 

Doesn't Englands territorial fishing waters look really small?

 

 

 

You do have the ability to make Scotland sound like a cheap whore..............................

[colinneil]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Have a word with your fellow Brexiteers then Jonny. They seem in quite a tizzy over the thought of Scottish independence.

Not sure we will need to beg the EU for admittance. Scotland has got plenty going for it and already complies with EU regulations.

And of course it does have all that territorial waters to tempt those EU fishermen with.

 

  

 

Doesn't Englands territorial fishing waters look really small?

Something you are forgetting, if Scotland gains independence, the Shetlanders, and the Orcadians will then want to break away from Scotland.

Before you laugh at that, having lived/ worked in Shetland for 6 years and Orkney for 3 years, i know what the islanders think of Scotland, they think about being separate from Scotland.

Then you would have very little territorial waters, in fact they would look really small.

[JonnyF]

22 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Have a word with your fellow Brexiteers then Jonny. They seem in quite a tizzy over the thought of Scottish independence.

Not sure we will need to beg the EU for admittance. Scotland has got plenty going for it and already complies with EU regulations.

And of course it does have all that territorial waters to tempt those EU fishermen with.

Most Brexiteers I speak to aren't bothered about it. Scotland is like a 16 year old kid who thinks they are getting a raw deal in the family house, moves into a bedsit and gets a rude awakening when they have to pay their first months rent.

 

If you think the EU are going to offer you a great deal then you might have to think again. You think they'll match the 2000 per head that you currently get? Match the great deal on tuition fees, prescriptions etc. You think they want another net recipient? You think they will bend the rules on budget deficits to let you join? 

 

All of this for Independence? How are you independent if Brussels is deciding your budget, your laws, your regulations? You're jumping out of the fire pan and into the fire. Ruled by Brussels instead of by Westminster. Independence? Far from it.