Brexit brinkmanship: Johnson says prepare for no-deal, cancels trade talks

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, david555 said:

Backtracking U.K. .... Gove tries to repair Boris walking away outcry  ....needless ..!
as already E.U. told before on Friday they keep negotiating ......a laughable U.K.  brexiteers Government try selling the "E.U. neutralizing Boris walk away " as their achievement  …. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/19/brexit-gove-praises-constructive-move-as-eu-agrees-to-intensify-talks

Michael Gove pulls U-turn at dispatch box as EU makes Brexit offer
Minister’s attack on Brussels subsides as Barnier seems to agree to UK’s demands for resuming talks

Daniel Boffey and Lisa O'Carroll
Mon 19 Oct 2020 16.59 BST

Michael Gove has praised a “constructive move” by the EU in an about-turn after its chief negotiator agreed to Downing Street’s conditions for the resumption of Brexit talks in pursuit of a deal.

Shortly after castigating the EU for its attitude to the talks during an appearance in the House of Commons, Gove had to backtrack as he stood at the dispatch box following a tweet by the bloc’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier.

 

Barnier who spoke to his British counterpart, David Frost, earlier in the day, wrote: “I just spoke to David Frost. As stated by [European commission president] Ursula von der Leyen on Friday, I confirmed that the EU remains available to intensify talks in London this week, on all subjects, and based on legal texts. We now wait for the UK’s reaction 

Boffey Boffey Boffey

[david555]

14 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If you look at Polls only 52% French people would vote remain if there was a referendum on EU membership

and more French people believe that the UK will benefit longterm from leaving the EU.

Has being a member of the EU had a positive or negative effect on your country? 35% of French people say that there is a negative effect on being a member of the EU while only 33% think being a member of the EU has a positive effect

and when asked the question Do you trust that the EU has your country's best interests at heart?

a whopping 46% of French people stated that the   EU doesn't have  France's  best interests at heart compare to 26% that think the EU does have France's best interest at heart

https://www.euronews.com/2020/10/15/majority-of-germans-think-uk-will-not-benefit-long-term-from-brexit-euronews-survey-reveal

I see here from an interview in 2018 French President Emmanuel Macron says France would 'probably' have voted to leave the EU, if offered the choice in a referendum

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-42768466

I read 52%  only.... , is that not that same "democratic" famous 52% victory who created the Brexit disaster.....? how wonderful 52% is good for one and bad for the other..... just how brexiteers  implicating words different  depending sides or cause  …..????

Edited October 19, 2020 by david555

[david555]

14 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Boffey Boffey Boffey

Govey Govey Govey 

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, david555 said:

I read 52%  only.... , is that not that same "democratic" famous 52% victory who created the Brexit disaster.....? how wonderful 52% is good for one and bad for the other..... just how brexiteers  implicating words different  depending sides or cause  …..????

Not everyone would agree with you regarding your comment "Brexit disaster" likewise it does appear that a number of French people are not happy remaining in the EU

I have no issues with the Northern Irish or Scottish people have referendums on remaining as part of the UK or leaving the UK but  they should be held after every single country in the EU has had a referendum on EU membership but as everyone knows the EU countries will not hold such referendums as they don't trust the citzens of EU countries producing the correct outcome

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 Yes, and when we Remainers told you that the promises made by Vote.Leave were impossible, all you did was bleat Cummings' mantra 'Project Fear, Project Fear.'

 

All that is still current, and will remain so until we either agree a trade deal with the EU or hit the iceberg of no deal and descend into the depths of WTO terms.

All those quotes were taken out of context and/or purposely misinterpreted to fit the remain agenda. They are meaningless wrt his debate.  

 

I don't know how many times I and others have explained that Liam Fox quote to remainers. Yet remainers still come running back with it time after time. They're like a dog fetching a stick. They don't know why they're doing it but it makes them feel good. 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Difficult to have a poll on attitudes to the referendum result before the referendum result is known!

 

I can find nothing to substantiate your assertion that "the weighting of sampling by geographical area is disproportionately high in London, the south of England and in Scotland." Perhaps you'd be so kind as to show me where you found that information.

 

Pro Remain bias? No; pro Remain results.

 

Personally, as I've said before, I believe the only polls which count are those at the ballot box. But as opinion polls in general, and YouGov in particular, have been used many times in the past by Brexiteers to 'prove' how popular Brexit is, it is amusing that now they are showing the opposite some are trying to disassociate themselves from that organisation!

Wow. And I thought you were the search engineer of TV! 

 

Busy now. I'll try and find it tomorrow if I have time. 

[david555]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Not everyone would agree with you regarding your comment "Brexit disaster" likewise it does appear that a number of French people are not happy remaining in the EU

I have no issues with the Northern Irish or Scottish people have referendums on remaining as part of the UK or leaving the UK but  they should be held after every single country in the EU has had a referendum on EU membership but as everyone knows the EU countries will not hold such referendums as they don't trust the citzens of EU countries producing the correct outcome

I don't see a reason that 27  referendums would be hold on the idea of a brexiteer ???? ….as you forgot . U.K. is out and out means out (dixit T.May) 

and out of the club there is no say inside the clubs doing'   anymore . Opinions yes , but only that ….

Independence is full yours ….. on the Island 

Edited October 19, 2020 by david555

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

It is not very logical to hear brexiters plead for self-determination and freedom "from slavery" and deny this right to the Irish and the Scots

Can you find me one Brexiteer on here who seeks to deny Northern Irish or Scots the right to vote for independence? I think you'll find we're either not bothered or quite happy for them to leave the union if that's what they want. 

NI has a mechanism in place already to have a referendum when support for independence justifies it. 

On Scotland, my  view is that they should get their 2nd indy vote as soon as the Scottish people know what post-Brexit Britain looks like. It would be unfair to make them vote while we're still in limbo. But SNP enthusiasts want a referendum now, just in case the polls swing back to remain once the Brexit turbulence has passed. That's underhand IMO. 

[candide]

36 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If you look at Polls only 52% French people would vote remain if there was a referendum on EU membership

and more French people believe that the UK will benefit longterm from leaving the EU.

Has being a member of the EU had a positive or negative effect on your country? 35% of French people say that there is a negative effect on being a member of the EU while only 33% think being a member of the EU has a positive effect

and when asked the question Do you trust that the EU has your country's best interests at heart?

a whopping 46% of French people stated that the   EU doesn't have  France's  best interests at heart compare to 26% that think the EU does have France's best interest at heart

https://www.euronews.com/2020/10/The/majority-of-germans-think-uk-will-not-benefit-long-term-from-brexit-euronews-survey-reveal

I see here from an interview in 2018 French President Emmanuel Macron says France would 'probably' have voted to leave the EU, if offered the choice in a referendum

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-42768466

Don't forget the first article's headline

Majority of Germans think UK will not benefit long term from Brexit, Euronews survey reveals 

The second article dates from 2018

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, candide said:

Don't forget the first article's headline

Majority of Germans think UK will not benefit long term from Brexit, Euronews survey reveals 

The second article dates from 2018

The Euronews article was Euronews  •  last updated: 15/10/2020

as It does state that while the majority of Germans think uk will not benefit long term from Brexit it does state  that the majority of Brits, Italians and French do believe that the UK will benefit long term from Brexit

I did state in my original post on Macon comments that is was from an interview in 2018 

[luckyluke]

7 hours ago, polpott said:

I have been getting this feedback on the ground for some time. Always get silly smiley faces from Brexiteers when I report it.

Pretty sure that if you can find a poll that shows that Britons are more and more in favour of Brexit you will get "Likes". 

[candide]

18 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The Euronews article was Euronews  •  last updated: 15/10/2020

as It does state that while the majority of Germans think uk will not benefit long term from Brexit it does state  that the majority of Brits, Italians and French do believe that the UK will benefit long term from Brexit

I did state in my original post on Macon comments that is was from an interview in 2018 

You seem to forget there is a lot of "don't know" answers (around one third of respondents). It's not surprising as "leaving or not leaving" is currently not a hot topic in most EU countries. Sorry but 35% is not "a majority".

Edited October 19, 2020 by candide

[luckyluke]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

God. You're good.

That's exaggerated, it was in fact an easy find. 

[vinny41]

2 minutes ago, candide said:

You seem to forget there is a lot of "don't know" answers (around one third of respondents). It's not surprising as "leaving or not leaving" is not currently a hot topic in most EU countries. Sorry but 35% is not "a majority".

35% of Brits who  believe that the UK will not  benefit long term from Brexit is not a majority but it is less than the 47% of Brits that do believe that the UK will benefit long term from Brexit

[Hi from France]

Today Gove declared in parliament that negotiations ended... while praising the opposite "constructive moves" 

Quote

Downing Street has refused to restart Brexit deal negotiations despite Michael Gove performing a U-turn at the dispatch box in which he praised a “constructive move” by the EU minutes after declaring the talks “effectively ended”.

 

As usual, it's hard to follow these continuous U-turns.

 

If you say something, just do what you say, if you sign a treaty, then abide by your word. If you don't want a treaty just don't sign... 

Quote

The government’s final response once Gove had left the chamber caused some bemusement in Brussels. Both the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, and the French president, Emmanuel Macron, had said on Friday that they were willing to compromise on the most contentious issues of domestic subsidy control and EU access to British fishing waters.

 

EU sources suggested that Downing Street simply felt unable to reverse Johnson’s suspension of the talks so quickly.

 

Anyway, the negociations will restart shortly, but considering the time lost these last years, and the few weeks remaining, even if there is a deal, it will be extremely thin 

Quote

there are concerns within government and industry that the dire threat of a no-deal outcome has masked the impact of a “thin” EU deal on trade. While a deal will remove tariffs on trade, significant “non-tariff barriers” will be imposed, adding serious costs on manufacturers and practical difficulties for hauliers – while the UK’s large services sector is also expected to be subject to new barriers. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/18/experts-claim-boris-johnsons-thin-eu-deal-will-cause-major-economic-upset

Edited October 19, 2020 by Hi from France

[Scott]

A post and reply with a foreign language has been removed.   English only.  

 

[candide]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

35% of Brits who  believe that the UK will not  benefit long term from Brexit is not a majority but it is less than the 47% of Brits that do believe that the UK will benefit long term from Brexit

So it seems we agree on maths. 47% is close to a majority, 35% is not.

[vinny41]

4 hours ago, candide said:

You seem to forget there is a lot of "don't know" answers (around one third of respondents). It's not surprising as "leaving or not leaving" is currently not a hot topic in most EU countries. Sorry but 35% is not "a majority".

 

1 hour ago, candide said:

So it seems we agree on maths. 47% is close to a majority, 35% is not.

I never stated 35% that was from yourself 

If you read the article correctly you would have found that 

 58% of Germans believe the UK will not reap any long term benefits from leaving the European Union, a Euronews-commissioned survey has revealed. while 23% think the UK will benefit long term from leaving the EU

The figure rises to 38% of French that think the UK will benefit long term from leaving the EU and 42% of Italians who think that 

the UK will benefit long term from leaving the EU and finally 47% of Brits that think the UK will benefit long term from leaving the EU

https://www.euronews.com/2020/10/15/majority-of-germans-think-uk-will-not-benefit-long-term-from-brexit-euronews-survey-reveal

 

[Rookiescot]

While Gove was praising the EU for wanting to continue the talks Downing street was telling the world "No we are still in the huff and dont want to talk".

Seriously. Just when you think Brexit cannot get more shambolic the Brexit fundamentalists pull off another stunning act of stupidity. 

[luckyluke]

 

There is a thin line between being determined, and being stubborn. 

 

 

Generally being determined is having the willingness to change as needed. 

 

Being stubborn is a categorical refuse to budge whatever the outcome will be. 

 

Will see. 

 

 

 

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

While Gove was praising the EU for wanting to continue the talks Downing street was telling the world "No we are still in the huff and dont want to talk".

Seriously. Just when you think Brexit cannot get more shambolic the Brexit fundamentalists pull off another stunning act of stupidity. 

Do you have a link to Goves quote, I'm sure he said more than that, if he ever said it at all.

[polpott]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

Being stubborn is a categorical refuse to budge whatever the outcome will be. 

Or having a "must do" hidden agenda.

[JonnyF]

7 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

On Scotland, my  view is that they should get their 2nd indy vote as soon as the Scottish people know what post-Brexit Britain looks like. It would be unfair to make them vote while we're still in limbo. But SNP enthusiasts want a referendum now, just in case the polls swing back to remain once the Brexit turbulence has passed. That's underhand IMO. 

Totally agree. The SNP are deliberately ramping up fear about the consequences of Brexit and using the fear that they themselves generated to try to justify another vote.

 

We need to come out and let it settle down for a few years, maybe a decade. Let everyone see Project Fear for the pack of lies it was and then have a vote to see if Scotland still wants to leave the successful, post Brexit UK to gamble on being allowed into the EU. 

 

Wouldn't it be hilarious if they left the UK and got refused entry to the EU. Or leave the UK just as the EU's house of cards started to fall. They'd inadvertently get the Independence they keep pretending they want ????.

[nauseus]

6 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Today Gove declared in parliament that negotiations ended... while praising the opposite "constructive moves" 

 

As usual, it's hard to follow these continuous U-turns.

 

If you say something, just do what you say, if you sign a treaty, then abide by your word. If you don't want a treaty just don't sign... 

 

Anyway, the negociations will restart shortly, but considering the time lost these last years, and the few weeks remaining, even if there is a deal, it will be extremely thin 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/18/experts-claim-boris-johnsons-thin-eu-deal-will-cause-major-economic-upset

What a messy post.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Do you have a link to Goves quote, I'm sure he said more than that, if he ever said it at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/19/brexit-gove-praises-constructive-move-as-eu-agrees-to-intensify-talks

 

 

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Difficult to have a poll on attitudes to the referendum result before the referendum result is known!

 

I can find nothing to substantiate your assertion that "the weighting of sampling by geographical area is disproportionately high in London, the south of England and in Scotland." Perhaps you'd be so kind as to show me where you found that information.

 

Pro Remain bias? No; pro Remain results.

 

Personally, as I've said before, I believe the only polls which count are those at the ballot box. But as opinion polls in general, and YouGov in particular, have been used many times in the past by Brexiteers to 'prove' how popular Brexit is, it is amusing that now they are showing the opposite some are trying to disassociate themselves from that organisation!

Here you go. Got up early just for you. The sampling totals by area seem disproportionate to population numbers in some areas and I'd like to see more geographical and actual sample detail about specific regions, especially the "rest of south", which could skew the overall results a lot. 

 

But then it is just a poll:

 

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5l5pygu8gt/TimesResults_200924_VI_Trackers_W.pdf

[Surelynot]

14 hours ago, 7by7 said:

14 hours ago, vogie said:

Polls can be manipulated, the referendum wasn't.

Strange comment on a YouGov poll from the person who until their results started to go against him regularly posted YouGov polls as if they were Holy Writ.

Ha!.....Back of the net

 

[vogie]

28 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/19/brexit-gove-praises-constructive-move-as-eu-agrees-to-intensify-talks

 

 

Thanks for the link but I cannot find anywhere the quote you mentioned, would you mind highlighting it. I'm suspecting though that he never said it, would that be a fair conclusion. Just to remind you you quoted Mr Gove saying  "No we are still in the huff and dont want to talk".

The nearest quote I can see from your link is Gove saying "Even while I have been at the dispatch box it has been reported that there has been a constructive move on the part of the EU and I welcome that … obviously we need to work on the basis of the proposed intensification they propose. And I prefer to look forward in optimism than look back in anger.”

 

[sandyf]

20 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Here you go. Got up early just for you. The sampling totals by area seem disproportionate to population numbers in some areas and I'd like to see more geographical and actual sample detail about specific regions, especially the "rest of south", which could skew the overall results a lot. 

 

But then it is just a poll:

 

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/5l5pygu8gt/TimesResults_200924_VI_Trackers_W.pdf

I do Yougov surveys, get £50 every 18 months or so, which area would Thailand appear.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Sounds like another one of those "Super Gonorrhea" stories.????

Enlighten.