Brexit brinkmanship: Johnson says prepare for no-deal, cancels trade talks

[Tofer]

21 hours ago, 7by7 said:

According to @Tofer, whatever the agreement over UK/EU fishing rights, the UK fishermen have already been sold out:

 

Where exactly have I stated that imaginary claim of yours?

[Tofer]

On 11/17/2020 at 7:06 PM, 7by7 said:

But tell us, if Boris is taking back the fishing rights the British government allowed British fishing fleet owners to sell to fleet owners from other EU coastal states and given those rights to fleets from Iceland, Norway, Greenland and the Faroe Islands; how will that help the UK fishing industry?

The deals we are making now are mutually beneficial, unlike the EU imposed quotas under the CFP which allowed the EU's foreign fishermen to rape our waters to the tune of 85%.

 

Or do you know something I don't. Feel free to enlighten me, although I doubt I will get anything to substantiate your scaremongering.

[7by7]

40 minutes ago, Tofer said:

You mean you really don't know, where on earth have you been all these years?

 

The demand for free access to UK's territorial waters, and the so called "level playing field" tying the UK into EU rules and regulations in perpetuity, all under the control of the EUCJ.

 

The WA stated that the negotiations should be conducted in good faith and with respect for the UK's sovereignty, which they clearly are not!!

 

We've been over and over these subjects, and you're just balking at the facts.

 

The EU are not "demanding free access to UK's territorial waters." They want the same access that they have had not just from long before the UK joined the EC but from long before the EC existed; and retention of the licences  which British fleet owners sold to foreign fleet owners in the 1980s.

 

The level playing field works both ways; or would you prefer EU companies being heavily subsidised so they can unfairly compete with UK ones?

 

All international trade agreements have mechanisms for dispute resolution. From the Institute for Government

Quote

The Withdrawal Agreement provides for a particular mechanism of dispute resolution. In addition, both EU and UK negotiating objectives set out proposals for systems of dispute resolution under the future relationship agreement.

One of the most controversial aspects of dispute resolution in a UK–EU context is the role of the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The EU will not let non-EU institutions set or interpret EU law for member states. In that case, any mechanism for resolving disputes should refer the ruling to the ECJ for interpretation. The Political Declaration agreed between the UK and the EU accepts this principle.

 

 

[7by7]

Error, deleted.

Edited November 23, 2020 by 7by7

[7by7]

50 minutes ago, Tofer said:

 

Where exactly have I stated that imaginary claim of yours?

 In the post I linked to.

 

40 minutes ago, Tofer said:

The deals we are making now are mutually beneficial, unlike the EU imposed quotas under the CFP which allowed the EU's foreign fishermen to rape our waters to the tune of 85%.

 

Or do you know something I don't. Feel free to enlighten me, although I doubt I will get anything to substantiate your scaremongering.

 

'Rape our waters!' When facts are lacking, try hyperbole!

 

From page 7 of the HoC briefing paper dated 5/10/20 UK Sea Fisheries Statistics

Quote

Vessels from EU member states landed an annual average of 739,000 tonnes of fish (worth £521 million p.a.) from the UK EEZ, accounting for 35% of their NE Atlantic catch by tonnage (23% by value). For comparison, UK vessels landed 546,000 tonnes of fish in UK waters, worth £633 million;3 • UK vessels landed 94,000 tonnes of fish (worth £106 million p.a.) from EU member states’ EEZs, accounting for 14% of their NE Atlantic catch by tonnage (13% by value). 4

 

The table on page 8 also gives the lie to your hype; but I can't seem to copy it here.

 

Note both show that the CFP is also mutually beneficial as it allows UK boats to fish in EU waters.

 

UK boats also sell much of their catch to EU markets. From UK Fisheries

Quote

Should we sever the link between trade agreements and quotas/access?

This sounds like a good idea, but the fact is that UK consumers love fish that is caught outside our own waters – like the haddock and cod that come from 1,000 miles away in the Barents Sea. On the other hand, the fish and shellfish that British fishermen catch in our own waters are mainly exported to overseas markets – mostly the EU, which loves our langoustine and lobster. So there is a symmetry, and for the sake of the small fishermen who are the main suppliers to these important export markets we need both quotas and access. If we were unable to sell into the EU (or heavy tariffs were to price UK fish out of the EU market) then we would have to change our eating habits dramatically. And we would then have to import almost all of our favourite fish – cod and haddock

 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Tofer said:

Scaremongering again.

 

Ye of little faith.

 

Do you relish the prospect of the UK failing, just to prove your point?

 

A very sad attitude, and rather unpatriotic.

Its not scaremongering. Its facing reality.

[david555]

Panic in #10...? ????  U-Turn coming ?....but to left or to the right ...?

 

Boris Johnson prepares significant Brexit intervention as negotiators begin the 'final push' (telegraph.co.uk)

 

 

Boris Johnson prepares significant Brexit intervention as negotiators begin the 'final push'

The PM is expected to attempt to clear away the final barriers to a deal – both sides believe one is now within reach

ByGordon Rayner, POLITICAL EDITOR22 November 2020 • 6:38pm

 

Boris Johnson is preparing to make a significant intervention in the Brexit trade talks this week as negotiators begin the “final push” before a deadline in eight days’ time....

[Tofer]

20 hours ago, 7by7 said:

The level playing field works both ways; or would you prefer EU companies being heavily subsidised so they can unfairly compete with UK ones?

 

All international trade agreements have mechanisms for dispute resolution. 

Yes, but not controlled by one party. EU are still insisting the UK is tied to the EU standards.

 

What would you have to say if the UK insisted / demanded the EU be tied to the UK's standards and rules? I'm looking forward to your answer to that one..... If ever.....

 

Oh and, as expected, no answer to the EU's disregard of the WA comment.

 

20 hours ago, 7by7 said:

The EU are not "demanding free access to UK's territorial waters." They want the same access that they have had not just from long before the UK joined the EC but from long before the EC existed; and retention of the licences  which British fleet owners sold to foreign fleet owners in the 1980s.

You are missing the point, and you keep repeating history. The UK will take back control of the fishing quotas, and make whatever allocation they choose from 31/12/20.

 

The licenses were sold on the invocation of the EU CFP quotas, not through choice.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Tofer

[Tofer]

19 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 In the post I linked to.

Rubbish, that post is linked to Rookiescots, which links to mine debating the relevance of historic statements.

 

Kindly pick out the exact statement you were referring to, where you claim I stated the UK fishermen had already been sold out...

[david555]

 (A month delay for the Boris bill....????...)

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-house-of-lords-internal-market-bill-devolution-b1760719.html

Brexit: House of Lords inflicts government defeat over devolved consent to Internal Market Bill powers
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would be given say over controversial use of powers contained in bill

 

Nick Lester,Trevor Mason
6 hours ago

The House of Lords voted for steps to force Westminster to seek the consent of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland before ministers are allowed to exercise powers contained in controversial legislation, with a majority of 77 votes.

 

The Labour-led change to the Internal Market Bill went further than the offer of consultation made by the government. However, while it requires the secretary of state to seek the agreement of the devolved nations before making regulations, it also makes provision to avoid the threat of a veto.

 

If consent is not given within a month, the minister can press ahead, but must publish a statement explaining why they have done so.
 

[Tofer]

19 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Its not scaremongering. Its facing reality.

There you go again with your negativity and crystal ball gazing....

[welovesundaysatspace]

33 minutes ago, david555 said:

 (A month delay for the Boris bill....????...)

 

(...)

 

If consent is not given within a month, the minister can press ahead, but must publish a statement explaining why they have done so.
 

I think you’ve been confusing things. The one month is not related to the timeline to enact the Boris bill (so it is not a delay of the Boris bill). It would (potentially) delay any decisions made under the powers of that Bill (I.e., it will only be relevant after the Boris bill has been enacted). 

[david555]

13 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I think you’ve been confusing things. The one month is not related to the timeline to enact the Boris bill (so it is not a delay of the Boris bill). It would (potentially) delay any decisions made under the powers of that Bill (I.e., it will only be relevant after the Boris bill has been enacted). 

 "If consent is not given within a month, the minister can press ahead "

 

i was following that line .... but it could be as you explain .... anyway another nice set back for him 

Edited November 24, 2020 by david555

[7by7]

5 hours ago, Tofer said:

Yes, but not controlled by one party. EU are still insisting the UK is tied to the EU standards.

 

What would you have to say if the UK insisted / demanded the EU be tied to the UK's standards and rules? I'm looking forward to your answer to that one..... If ever.....

All trade agreements have standards and rules which both parties agree to. As the UK's standards and rules are the same as the EU's; what's the problem?

 

5 hours ago, Tofer said:

Oh and, as expected, no answer to the EU's disregard of the WA comment.

I did answer previously when I stated the fact that it is the UK who want to renege on the WA, not the EU. 

 

But tell us, how are the EU disregarding it? 

 

5 hours ago, Tofer said:

You are missing the point, and you keep repeating history. The UK will take back control of the fishing quotas, and make whatever allocation they choose from 31/12/20.

 As UK fisheries have said, and they know far more about this than you or I, that will not happen for the simple reason that there are not enough British boats to fill the gap. 

 

Of course, that gap could be filled by fleets from Iceland, Norway, Greenland and the Faroe Islands; but how would that help the UK fishing industry?

 

5 hours ago, Tofer said:

The licenses were sold on the invocation of the EU CFP quotas, not through choice.

Rubbish. Each coastal state was given the power to issue licences for it's own waters. The UK government issued all it's licences to UK fleet owners. Many of those owners went for a quick profit by selling their licences to foreign owners.

 

As far as I am aware, the UK was the only country to allow licence holders to do this!

 

4 hours ago, Tofer said:

Rubbish, that post is linked to Rookiescots, which links to mine debating the relevance of historic statements.

 No, the link leads to this post of yours:

 

5 hours ago, Tofer said:

Kindly pick out the exact statement you were referring to, where you claim I stated the UK fishermen had already been sold out...

 

You crowed about that news in the linked to post; but is not giving those rights to foreign fleets selling out the UK fishing industry who were promised them in the 2016 campaign?

 

I ask you again, how does taking back the fishing rights the British government allowed British fishing fleet owners to sell to fleet owners from other EU coastal states and giving those rights to fleets from Iceland, Norway, Greenland and the Faroe Islands help the UK fishing industry?

 

[Rookiescot]

5 hours ago, Tofer said:

There you go again with your negativity and crystal ball gazing....

 

Negativity eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/23/no-deal-brexit-to-cost-more-than-covid-bank-of-england-governor-says

 

Yeah we should just do what you do. Believe everything will be just peachy. 

Optimism is a great thing. Optimism when faced with overwhelming facts is just stupidity. 

[david555]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-24/goldman-sachs-to-start-paris-trading-venue-as-brexit-approaches

 

Markets

Goldman Sachs to Start Paris Trading Venue as Brexit Nears
By Viren Vaghela
November 24, 2020, 2:23 PM GMT+7 Updated on November 24, 2020, 8:36 PM GMT+7

 U.S. bank planning to open Europe version of London dark pool
 With EU and British authorities at odds, U.K. trading may move

Edited November 24, 2020 by david555

[Surelynot]

Anthony Blinken.....

 

"Blinken describes Brexit as “a total mess”, and compared the process to a dog being run over by a car.

“This is not just the dog that caught the car, this is the dog that caught the car and the car goes into reverse and runs over the dog” 

 

Good to see someone who knows what they are talking about is now in charge as Secretary of State.

[Surelynot]

I wouldn't even let him near my whelk stall.....

[Mavideol]

Bank of England made it clear to the risks involved

 

Andrew Bailey talks Brexit, coronavirus and leaks in evidence to a committee of MPs as the economy reels from pandemic disruption.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-banks-bailey-warns-long-term-effects-of-no-deal-brexit-worse-than-virus-12140542

 

The Bank of England governor has warned that a no-deal Brexit would end up causing deeper long-term damage to the UK economy than the COVID-19 pandemic.

COVID-19: Bank of England warns long-term effects of no-deal Brexit worse than pandemic

[Mavideol]

and again a more recent risk analysis from Bank of England

 

https://dailytimes.com.pk/693281/bank-of-englands-policymaker-warns-no-deal-brexit-threatens-the-economic-outlook/

 

Bank of England’s policymaker warns no-deal Brexit threatens the economic outlook

He echoed comments made by Bank governor Andrew Bailey on Monday cautioning over a no-deal EU withdrawal.

[Tofer]

18 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Negativity eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/23/no-deal-brexit-to-cost-more-than-covid-bank-of-england-governor-says

 

Yeah we should just do what you do. Believe everything will be just peachy. 

Optimism is a great thing. Optimism when faced with overwhelming facts is just stupidity. 

It's still negativity, even if it comes from the BoE governor. Whenever have financial analysts been correct?

 

Now who's being insulting?

 

If you can't stay civil - better not stay...

Edited November 25, 2020 by Tofer

[Rookiescot]

17 minutes ago, Tofer said:

It's still negativity, even if it comes from the BoE governor. Whenever have financial analysts been correct?

 

Now who's being insulting?

 

If you can't stay civil - better not stay...

 

It was not meant as an insult. It is true though. When facts change then change your mind.

[Tofer]

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

All trade agreements have standards and rules which both parties agree to. As the UK's standards and rules are the same as the EU's; what's the problem?

Exactly, so why then are the EU still holding out an a trade agreement if all our standards are the same as the EU?

 

The problem is the EU want control past the Brexit transition period to impose any new rules they deem fit, as I said, in perpetuity. Does that sound like independent sovereignty to you?

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

But tell us, how are the EU disregarding it? 

 

For the umpteenth time, they are not negotiating in good faith and are not respecting the UK's sovereignty. (see above)

 

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I did answer previously when I stated the fact that it is the UK who want to renege on the WA, not the EU. 

 

A selective opinion, that conveniently ignores the EU's transgressions. See above.

 

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

As UK fisheries have said, and they know far more about this than you or I, that will not happen for the simple reason that there are not enough British boats to fill the gap. 

 Can't be any worse than the present scenario, and we manage to catch the fish now. Then there will be all those European boats up for sale shortly, at a good price.

 

Hopefully the deal done with those countries will fulfil any shortfall we may find in need, to replace that from the EU's fishermen. 

 

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Rubbish. Each coastal state was given the power to issue licences for it's own waters. The UK government issued all it's licences to UK fleet owners. Many of those owners went for a quick profit by selling their licences to foreign owners.

 

And who exactly, set the fishing quotas that came out of those UK waters?

 

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

No, the link leads to this post of yours:

 

Where do I state that the British fishermen have been "sold out"??

 

18 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I ask you again, how does taking back the fishing rights the British government allowed British fishing fleet owners to sell to fleet owners from other EU coastal states and giving those rights to fleets from Iceland, Norway, Greenland and the Faroe Islands help the UK fishing industry?

 

So you are proclaiming that the UK has given away the same amount of quota to those countries, as that which the EU have enjoyed / demanded over the last 40 years - rubbish.

[Tofer]

12 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

It was not meant as an insult. It is true though. When facts change then change your mind.

You can't call someone "stupid", and then claim you didn't mean it.

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Tofer said:

You can't call someone "stupid", and then claim you didn't mean it.

I did not call you stupid.

Read the post again.

[JonnyF]

18 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Negativity eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/23/no-deal-brexit-to-cost-more-than-covid-bank-of-england-governor-says

 

Yeah we should just do what you do. Believe everything will be just peachy. 

Optimism is a great thing. Optimism when faced with overwhelming facts is just stupidity. 

What facts? It's the prediction of one man who's toeing the line.

 

Carney trotted out the same nonsense when he was governor and was proved wrong on almost all of his predictions.

 

A prediction on the future is not a fact. 

 

 

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

What facts? It's the prediction of one man who's toeing the line.

 

Carney trotted out the same nonsense when he was governor and was proved wrong on almost all of his predictions.

 

A prediction on the future is not a fact. 

 

 

 

It would seem all you Brexiteers are the real financial experts. 

What did Carney get wrong? 

He said the pound would lose value against both the euro and the dollar. It has.

He said investment in the UK would slow down. It has.

He said the banks would start moving assets out of London and into Europe. They have.

 

Now perhaps you can give a list of everything you Brexiteers have got right?

[Kwasaki]

I guess this again has become a thread as usual of bitter remainers TV mob and lets get brexit done guys. 

The latest news is that a deal looks promising. 

[JonnyF]

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

It would seem all you Brexiteers are the real financial experts. 

What did Carney get wrong? 

He said the pound would lose value against both the euro and the dollar. It has.

He said investment in the UK would slow down. It has.

He said the banks would start moving assets out of London and into Europe. They have.

 

Now perhaps you can give a list of everything you Brexiteers have got right?

Where to start?

 

Carney and the BOE led an anti Brexit campaign that was proved wrong on so many levels.

 

https://troymedia.com/world/carney-was-dead-wrong-about-brexit/#.X74Hc2gzbIU

 

https://fcpp.org/2020/01/04/goodbye-mark-carney-you-let-your-bias-get-the-better-of-you/

 

https://www.ft.com/content/2ec41698-f48f-11e7-a4c9-bbdefa4f210b

 

 

[luckyluke]

24 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

A prediction on the future is not a fact. 

Like that.