Tenant liabilities

[w94005m]

I've been a landlord in UK and US for close to 15 years, but decided to rent here as it seemed to make the most sense, but a recent experience has me questioning that.

 

One night while I slept, the toilet hose failed and a split developed. It was a cheap, old hose and the landlord should have replaced it some time ago. I always make it a point as a tenant to never change anything related to water or electric supply, as I don't want any liability issues.

 

However, in this case, despite the hose being an old, cheap substandard plastic hose with no interior or exterior protection, the landlord had me compensate the condo below from the water that seeped below. Thankfully, it was not a large sum. Despite telling the landlord that I thought that was 100% wrong, he kept with charging me.

 

I know if that happened in the UK or USA, as a landlord, I would be 100% liable for any damage caused and obviously I have insurance to cover such circumstances. I also make darn sure that everything is up to code and as reliable as possible.  I am also responsible for replacing any equipment that fails, such as ovens, microwaves or air conditioning units.

 

I'm now worried that Thailand operates differently and I could be liable for failings of my landlord to have such fittings not up to code or indeed anything that stops working through normal use. If that is the case, I clearly need to reconsider if renting is the best policy for me.

[BritManToo]

5 minutes ago, w94005m said:

I'm now worried that Thailand operates differently and I could be liable for failings of my landlord to have such fittings not up to code or indeed anything that stops working through normal use. If that is the case, I clearly need to reconsider if renting is the best policy for me.

Rent on the ground floor if it worries you so much.

[ukrules]

12 minutes ago, w94005m said:

I'm now worried that Thailand operates differently and I could be liable for failings of my landlord to have such fittings not up to code or indeed anything that stops working through normal use. If that is the case, I clearly need to reconsider if renting is the best policy for me.

Move out and move often, only rent new places each time you move.

[Peterw42]

What does your lease say ? It can be that the tenant is responsible for repairs in Thailand and there would be a clause in the lease that says as much.

 

[w94005m]

5 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

What does your lease say ? It can be that the tenant is responsible for repairs in Thailand and there would be a clause in the lease that says as much.

 

 

Nothing stated

[ezzra]

As a long time landlord, the owner of the unit should have shouldered the expenses of repairing busted water hose/pipe as i did couple of times in my rented out units,

only if a damage done out of carelessness, intentionally or out of misuse the fixers in the apartment only than the tenants is responsible...

[worgeordie]

Lots of Thai landlords are very reluctant to fix or repair anything,

the tenant only needs to keep the place clean and tidy, all repairs

for anything that was there when you moved in are the responsibility

of the landlord, unless you broke it yourself.

 

But it's another thing trying to get some landlords to fix anything,

wear and tear on property is an anomaly to them,and will blame

the tenant and will be held responsible every time, they have never

heard of the saying, "The customer is always right " (even if they

are not ) better not to lose a customer or your going to lose  money.

regards worgeordie

 

 

 

 

[Surelynot]

This is an out and out con.....no way are you responsible.....he would have done well to get a penny out of me.

 

He would have show you were negligent or there was a dereliction of duty.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Surelynot

[w94005m]

1 hour ago, worgeordie said:

Lots of Thai landlords are very reluctant to fix or repair anything,

the tenant only needs to keep the place clean and tidy, all repairs

for anything that was there when you moved in are the responsibility

of the landlord, unless you broke it yourself.

 

But it's another thing trying to get some landlords to fix anything,

wear and tear on property is an anomaly to them,and will blame

the tenant and will be held responsible every time, they have never

heard of the saying, "The customer is always right " (even if they

are not ) better not to lose a customer or your going to lose  money.

regards worgeordie

 

 

 

 

Thanks and disappointingly, this is a farang landlord, which was what shocked me even more.

[worgeordie]

21 minutes ago, w94005m said:

Thanks and disappointingly, this is a farang landlord, which was what shocked me even more.

I am a landlord here too,but i look after my tenants,most stay a very long time,

you have to look after them,as finding good /any tenants is not easy,the way things

are at the moment, an empty Condo or House is not earning anything,just costing

money.

regards worgeordie

[alacrity]

46 minutes ago, w94005m said:

Thanks and disappointingly, this is a farang landlord, which was what shocked me even more.

Why more shocked? There's 'good' and not 'so good' landlords and tenants throughout the world. Your landlord  seems to belong in the second category. Although I doubt the sudden mass failure scenario, I'm sure a suitable compromise should have been possible.

 

If your statements are correct; dump the landlord, rental properties are hardly a scarcity these days. If not dump them anyway, as it's unlikely they would have your best interests at heart after your malignment.

[Grumpy one]

Looks like replacing the hose yourself may have been the smarter option 

[w94005m]

35 minutes ago, Grumpy one said:

Looks like replacing the hose yourself may have been the smarter option 

In hindsight, but despite doing a lot of fully inspected plumbing and electrical work in the US, I didn't want to be in any way liable should something happen on utility supply. I'd already installed a trap on the kitchen sink as unsurprisingly, I did not want sewer gas in the apartment, but there's no question of any problem with that.

 

Never guessed that he would make me liable  anyway. Of course I've done that now with a suitable stainless steel coated and interior braided hose.

[Yellowtail]

Unless you are getting a really great deal on a great place I would move.

 

"Cheat me once, shame on you, cheat me twice, shame on me."

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Yellowtail
added quote

[w94005m]

1 hour ago, alacrity said:

Why more shocked? There's 'good' and not 'so good' landlords and tenants throughout the world. Your landlord  seems to belong in the second category. Although I doubt the sudden mass failure scenario, I'm sure a suitable compromise should have been possible.

 

If your statements are correct; dump the landlord, rental properties are hardly a scarcity these days. If not dump them anyway, as it's unlikely they would have your best interests at heart after your malignment.

I mistakenly thought there would be more familiarity with normal landlord responsibilities.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, w94005m said:

I mistakenly thought there would be more familiarity with normal landlord responsibilities.

 

In my limited experience here the landlord responsibilities are  similar a in the US. 

 

That said, I would not involve the landlord with a $2 hose, but I would would not pay any damages I was not responsible for. But again, if you are getting a great deal on a great place, you might want to eat it. 

 

 

[userabcd]

Read a few lease agreements from the internet, particularly clauses protecting tenants rights and which party is responsible for what problems and costs.

 

Protect your deposit and rights by specific clauses what constitutes reasonable normal use wear and tear and what the owner would be responsible for.

 

Where clauses are vague, omitted or lacking insert them or clarify them into the contract before signing.

 

Do a thorough pre inspection of the property, its condition, quantity and state, room by room,  and list these on a sheet attached to and forming part of the lease agreement.

 

Basically bathrooms wet areas should be sealed insulated from fixture water leaks and would be directed to a drain. Leaking or not it should never affect someone elses property. This is a physical structural defect for which the property owner should be fully liable.

Edited November 1, 2020 by userabcd

[Oldie]

On 10/30/2020 at 3:58 PM, w94005m said:

I've been a landlord in UK and US for close to 15 years, but decided to rent here as it seemed to make the most sense, but a recent experience has me questioning that.

 

One night while I slept, the toilet hose failed and a split developed. It was a cheap, old hose and the landlord should have replaced it some time ago. I always make it a point as a tenant to never change anything related to water or electric supply, as I don't want any liability issues.

 

However, in this case, despite the hose being an old, cheap substandard plastic hose with no interior or exterior protection, the landlord had me compensate the condo below from the water that seeped below. Thankfully, it was not a large sum. Despite telling the landlord that I thought that was 100% wrong, he kept with charging me.

 

I know if that happened in the UK or USA, as a landlord, I would be 100% liable for any damage caused and obviously I have insurance to cover such circumstances. I also make darn sure that everything is up to code and as reliable as possible.  I am also responsible for replacing any equipment that fails, such as ovens, microwaves or air conditioning units.

 

I'm now worried that Thailand operates differently and I could be liable for failings of my landlord to have such fittings not up to code or indeed anything that stops working through normal use. If that is the case, I clearly need to reconsider if renting is the best policy for me.

The simple question is if you want to fight against the landlord or not. I stayed in a serviced apartment for several years and I had a great landlord. Light bulbs and even batteries for the aircon and TV remote were replaced by him. Repairs were done immediately. And when I moved out I got my deposit back on the same day. When I bought my own condo it took me a while to get used to the fact that I am responsible for everything. My apartment belonged to a company with about 200 apartment units. Perhaps at landlords with only a few units it might not be that easy. 

[Dexxter]

5 hours ago, userabcd said:

Basically bathrooms wet areas should be sealed insulated from fixture water leaks and would be directed to a drain. Leaking or not it should never affect someone elses property. This is a physical structural defect for which the property owner should be fully liable.

 

We regularly hose out the bathroom floor with the bum gun when cleaning and never had problems with leakage outside the immediate floor area. There is a drain and a small barrier under the door between the bathroom and the outside room. There are bigger issues with the building if water is leaking to the apartment below you.

[khunPer]

On 10/30/2020 at 9:58 AM, w94005m said:

I'm now worried that Thailand operates differently and I could be liable for failings of my landlord to have such fittings not up to code or indeed anything that stops working through normal use. If that is the case, I clearly need to reconsider if renting is the best policy for me.

Your rental contract might state what you are liable for.

 

An English translation of the text of the Law is HERE.

Quote

Chapter III

Duties and liabilities of the hirer

[...]

Section 553. The hirer is bound to take as much care of the property hired as a person of ordinary prudence would take of his own property, and to do ordinary maintenance and petty repairs.

[...]

 

In both my home country, and what I have rented here, the lessee is responsible for internal maintenance and any damages, whilst the lessor is responsible for external maintenance and damages (like for example a leaking roof).

 

If I see something worn out, I'll either immediately mention it, and ask if it can be changed, or just having it changed/change it myself – which is often the most convenient way to do things, and also make one's landlord happy – I for example managed to spoil an old fridge while defrosting it, and I bought a new of similar size and quality, and of course told the landlord I've done so; he was happy...????

[geisha]

In my 30 years of renting in Thailand, I have obviously had a few things needing to be changed. First, on arrival, I check all the obvious marks on walls/ tiles etc. I read the contract thoroughly and if I don’t understand something I ask. Insurance has always been stated in case of water or fire damage. I’ve also seen the wc hose worn out/ old , and I’ve asked immediately and it’s been changed. Windows, doors creaking, they send a handyman. Maybe I’ve been lucky, I’m a lady and cannot fix things myself, so make extra sure I’m well covered. Considering the terrible lack of quality I’ve seen in the condos , I haven’t had a bad run, except the last new condo which had all its shelves etc fall of the walls and sliding doors that wouldn’t open, I thought I had ghosts ! Even then the handyman came the same day. 

[SbuxPlease]

A lesson I've had to learn in my 5 years in here is that what we'd consider the "right" or "proper" way in the west is just not relevant information. The landlord-tenant "law" in Thailand, especially when foreigners are a party, is just not all that helpful unless you can hire a Thai lawyer at a Thai price who actually wants to fight for you (note: you can't . Unless you're married to a Thai or have an accommodating GF.)

 

Landlords are a special bunch in Thailand, even the farang owners. Perhaps many feel a superiority to the rest of the people based on their ownership and they generally know the cost for you to fight them exceeds whatever you'd get back. I've had the most luck when I push back on the initial deposit request, giving only 1 month instead of the very common 2 months. Having negotiated a number of leases for my businesses and friends, I've only had to walk away from a few deals because of that demand. When they don't hold this over your head and know you can walk easily, I think they work a bit harder to keep you satisfied.

[BritManToo]

52 minutes ago, SbuxPlease said:

A lesson I've had to learn in my 5 years in here is that what we'd consider the "right" or "proper" way in the west is just not relevant information.

Never pay more than 1 month deposit, if there's ever a problem walk away without leaving a forwarding address.

No need for lawyers, no need to worry about liability, the Thai way works just fine.

[jomtienisgood]

On 10/30/2020 at 4:05 PM, BritManToo said:

Rent on the ground floor if it worries you so much.

Beware of the rats and snakes, not mentioning cockroaches. 55555555

[jomtienisgood]

On 10/30/2020 at 5:10 PM, Peterw42 said:

What does your lease say ? It can be that the tenant is responsible for repairs in Thailand and there would be a clause in the lease that says as much.

 

100% correct.

[jomtienisgood]

On 10/30/2020 at 8:17 PM, Grumpy one said:

Looks like replacing the hose yourself may have been the smarter option 

Not everybody has sleepless nights. Over a nighttime a lot of water can drip downwards......

[bslmh]

17 minutes ago, jomtienisgood said:

Beware of the rats and snakes, not mentioning cockroaches. 55555555

you can meet these on any floor

[jomtienisgood]

5 minutes ago, bslmh said:

you can meet these on any floor

just joking

[AgMech Cowboy]

On 10/30/2020 at 6:54 PM, w94005m said:

Thanks and disappointingly, this is a farang landlord, which was what shocked me even more.

WOW!! I would have continued to pay my rent and looked for a new place. Once I'd found a new place I'd have walked a left my deposit behind, if that's what it took (all assuming the deposit was less than the liability). 

 

The damages as you've described them are all the owners liability and either he or the condo administration should have insurance to cover it (IMO).

[w94005m]

On 11/1/2020 at 5:09 PM, khunPer said:

Your rental contract might state what you are liable for.

 

An English translation of the text of the Law is HERE.

 

In both my home country, and what I have rented here, the lessee is responsible for internal maintenance and any damages, whilst the lessor is responsible for external maintenance and damages (like for example a leaking roof).

 

If I see something worn out, I'll either immediately mention it, and ask if it can be changed, or just having it changed/change it myself – which is often the most convenient way to do things, and also make one's landlord happy – I for example managed to spoil an old fridge while defrosting it, and I bought a new of similar size and quality, and of course told the landlord I've done so; he was happy...????

 

Thank you for the link.

 

As I noted, I have been a landlord in the UK and USA for about 15 years, using standard rental contracts from the management companies who I work with. There I have been responsible for all internal fixtures and fittings, as well as of course anything to do with utility supply. So in the last few years, I have had to replace oven and microwaves which stopped working. Same as repainting and redecorating are 100% on me unless there has been vandalism. Your comment suggests otherwise for internal maintenance.

 

So are you saying that if the inside ac unit stops working in the condo here (not the compressor), that is down to me to replace?