How are the bars, restaurants, agogos, massage shops, gentleman clubs and any business doing during covid?

[scubascuba3]

I had a quick look in Walking St last night, only checked Dollhouse agogo, girls are in there dancing but fully clothed so I U turned, not sure if that's because of the rules or newbie girls are shy, I'll try again in a few months.

 

Lot's of tourist types heading there though

[proton]

5 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

I had a quick look in Walking St last night, only checked Dollhouse agogo, girls are in there dancing but fully clothed so I U turned, not sure if that's because of the rules or newbie girls are shy, I'll try again in a few months.

 

Lot's of tourist types heading there though

Sex tourists ????

[scubascuba3]

5 minutes ago, proton said:

Sex tourists ????

Maybe, what do you go for? temples?

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

I had a quick look in Walking St last night, only checked Dollhouse agogo, girls are in there dancing but fully clothed so I U turned, not sure if that's because of the rules or newbie girls are shy, I'll try again in a few months.

 

Lot's of tourist types heading there though

Been upstairs in Kinks yet?

[scubascuba3]

Just now, jacko45k said:

Been upstairs in Kinks yet?

No I don't go to LK, never as good as WS pre covid anyway. I could of checked Beavers but no activity outside and a girl in Dollhouse didn't suggest upstairs in Electric Blue

[BritManToo]

15 hours ago, Leaver said:

I agree.  It really surprises my that The Nightwish Group haven't put all their girls on an app for "out call massage."  The girls collecting a fee for The NWG.  I would say why they haven't done this is because they have so much invested in bricks and mortar that they need to perpetuate the old business model.  

I'd say they haven't done it because the police would aggressively arrest fine and jail all involved. Taking money away from the police won't be allowed.

Edited May 21, 2022 by BritManToo

[PJ71]

12 hours ago, aussiexpat said:

Can we just ban Leaver from happy threads?

Create a poll and see what the majority reckons, i think we know the answer.

[PJ71]

1 hour ago, proton said:

Sex tourists ????

Sharp as a bowling ball....

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

 

It's well known that leases here are heavily in the favor of the landlord, to the point that should a business fail, the landlord cleans up, and then gets to to lease out the property again to the next dreamer, and the cycle continues. 

How does the landlord "clean-up" when the tenant can't pay?

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

I don't have a link, but ask any business owner here if they think their Thai landlord is reasonable, the majority will say, no.

I managed a business here for over 20 years and discussed all manner of business with any number of other business managers and owners and never understood this to be the case.  

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

This probably goes to the heart of the issue.  

Indeed

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Let's be honest, it was the sex trade that first put Pattaya on the map decades ago, and it has evolved into city since then.  Whilst Pattaya now has more to offer than just the sex trade, businesses in Central Pattaya are firmly focused on adult nightlife and the sex trade.

I never noticed a lot of girls "working" Central Festival of the lobby of the Hilton.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Now, it's the Thai girls, and the available sex, that attracts tourists to Pattaya,

Again, I think this is changing. Do you see a lot of Chinese tourists  buying lady drinks and paying bar-fines? 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

so the Thai landlord thinks his property is busy with tourists, therefore land values have gone up, so he wants more rent for his property.  I agree with you on this point, however, the businesses / properties are / were busy (pre covid) due to the sex trade.  

When the business can no longer pay the rent, it goes broke and quits paying rent. This happens enough, the rent goes down, rent goes down, either property values go down with them, or perhaps a hotel or condo or something else goes up in it's place.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Imagine a proper crackdown on prostitution here, or, hypothetically, no girls could / would go with customers for sex, not only would businesses  close like we saw in covid, but the land values would plummet. 

I think Festival, the Hilton and any number of other properties would do fine. Walking Street could turn into a more family oriented venue, like a typical seaside boardwalk.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Pattaya Beach is terrible, so sex tourists would not be replaced by families or couples here. 

Seems to me like sex tourists were already being replaced. Ever been to a beach in India or China?

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

My point being, that high value of the commercial land here relies very much on the sex trade.  Do you agree with this?

Of much of it, yes. Of all of it? No. 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Now compare the sex trade here to, say, the taxi industry, pre Uber.  Taxis and the plates used to be expensive to buy, now they are near worthless.  Taxis all around the world had no competition, and taxi prices were high, due to government fees, taxes, licensing etc.  Along comes Uber, and they took a huge slice of the market share, and could have cheap prices because of no government fees, taxes, licensing etc. 

Perhaps in Pattaya, but I have not noticed that here are significantly fewer metered taxies in Bangkok, 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

As I have said, as meeting Thai girls online here for partying and sex grows in popularity, due to the high costs of rents for owners, passed on as lady drinks and bar fines, will Thai landlords lower rents, because profits from lady drinks and bar fines are declining?

When people are unable to pay the rents, the rents will come down, or the buildings will be vacant.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

They probably won't...

Because we all know how stupid Thais are, (particularly RICH Thais) yes? It's your position that the fools would all rather have no money than less money, correct?
 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

and what of the Thai landlords that borrowed to buy a commercial property here, say a bar, they will not like negative equity.

What of them? 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

I have asked members who defend the lady drink / bar fine business model where the line in the sand for them is with lady drink prices and bar fines.  Yet to receive a reply.  These prices will keep going up, pushing more online, which drives price further up, pushing more online.  It's a vicious cycle. 

No one has answered, because there is not answer. As bars go out of business, do online prices nit go up? 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Eventually, we get to 120 beers, 250 lady drinks, and 1500 baht bar fines, in a little beer bar, because the Thai landlord still wants his rent, and you don't think sex tourists will start looking at Cambodia, Philippines, Vietnam etc?

People don't bat an eye at paying ฿120 for a coffee. Can they get a coffee at 7-11 for ฿25? Sure. Is 7-11 driving sales at Starbucks down? I think not.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

My post was Pattaya specific. 

I'll rephrase: Tourism in Pattaya is more and more family oriented. 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Again, the property prices went up due to the sex trade, now with the internet and apps, the sex trade here has been, and will continue to be, digitally disrupted, just like the taxis were.  Where's the land value then?

Let me guess, down?

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

As in the example I gave, taxis used to be expensive to buy, the vehicle, the plates, the license etc, now they are worthless, all around the world.  The land values here were / are based on a flourishing sex trade operating out of bricks and mortar commercial properties.  That has, and will continue to change, as more and more girls, and sex tourists, move online.  

And most can book sex online without leaving home, why come to Thailand?

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Have you considered, "that's just the way it is" for digitally disrupted industries?  

I do not understand your question, but generally, businesses either adapt to the market, or go under.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Should, for many, their "side" becomes their main, what then for bar owners?  

Again, they adapt to the market or go under.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Once again, how does the bar owner tell his Thai landlord that he can't get decent looking girls, and no one is buying lady drinks and paying bar fines anymore?  Will the Thai landlord tell his bar owner tenant, "But they have to pay, because the land has a high value."  ???? 

Why is this so confusing for you? 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

So we will have a lot of vacant and derelict commercial properties here in the future, unless Thai landlords share some of the digitally disrupted pain, and there is a market correction. 

Which can't happen because we all know Thais, particularly RICH Thais are all stupid.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Ok, so, care to put a percent on the impact, and predict a percent, say, 3 years from now?  It's only going to get bigger.

22.855%

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Can that "experience" compete with online in the future?  Just look at the global success of Tinder. 

And again, Tinder is global, why come to Thailand to book online sex?

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

As the older guys used to the lady drink / bar fine business model leave the market, the new ones coming through are very much tech savvy, possibly preferring that "experience" in the same way they prefer AirBnb, Uber, Tinder etc.  They can get on an app and arrange to meet girls the week before they even arrive.  Where's the lady drinks and bar fines coming from that crowd, and have they done anything wrong?  Should they be called Cheap Charlie?

I see nothing wrong with people that don't want to go to bars booking online sex, or booking online because it's cheaper. But I think it a little odd that one would book a prostitute online and take her bar-hopping pretending she's their girlfriend. Does that really fool anyone?

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

I agree.  It really surprises my that The Nightwish Group haven't put all their girls on an app for "out call massage."  The girls collecting a fee for The NWG.  I would say why they haven't done this is because they have so much invested in bricks and mortar that they need to perpetuate the old business model.

Your claim that it's "...because they have so much invested in bricks and mortar..." makes no sense. They generally don't own any "brick and mortar".

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Just like the agencies do with the gogo girls and bar girls, a smart crew could develop a "dating site" specific to the main tourist areas of Thailand for out call short / long time "massage" and really have a huge impact on the old business model here, not to mention becoming the "Uber" of "massage" in Thailand.  Cha-Ching. 

They will adapt or fail.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Your shirt example is interesting.  Say the rent on the bricks and mortar department store that sells shirts was so high, that the disparity in cost of the shirts from the department store was so great that most bought the same shirt online?  The department store being the bar / rent / Thai landlord and the online being the apps many girls are currently working off.  What eventually happens to the department store / bar in Pattaya when the different in cost becomes so great?

And what if the the rent comes down for brick and mortar and online sales are taxed more heavily, In the US you could "buy online" 100 years ago.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Long after covid has come to pass, there is interesting times ahead here for businesses sticking with the old Pattaya business model.

Covid will never come to pass.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

We all know it's the world's oldest profession...

I don't know that, I hear that regurgitated often by others that likely don't know either. 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

...but that doesn't mean the internet can't / won't change the delivery of such services here in Pattaya.    

It really means nothing, does it? 

[BritManToo]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

And again, Tinder is global, why come to Thailand to book online sex?

Generally the Asian girls are nicer to their customers.

Outside Asia I've never bothered, it didn't seem worthwhile.

But you must know this too.

Edited May 21, 2022 by BritManToo

[scubascuba3]

I think we need to start limiting post length, just too boring to read ????

[Olmate]

Booze.ban  due to election6pm tonite till 6pm tomorrow Bkok and Pattaya reported in that  newspaper! True? 

[champers]

14 minutes ago, Olmate said:

Booze.ban  due to election6pm tonite till 6pm tomorrow Bkok and Pattaya reported in that  newspaper! True? 

Yes.

[The Hammer2021]

20 hours ago, PJ71 said:

You have, i'm sure many on here will agree with me.

 

I've no idea what % it would be, i can't see that percentage going down tho. A lot of people are drawn to Pattaya for the vibe, although you can go shopping online for your dorris it's not the same as out with your mates for a few beers and some playing around, that will never dissapear for many.

After  a 2 year lockdown most people want to exercise  there freedom to dance, pub crawl , bar hop, revisit old haunts, explore new places, go out to eat ,talk  chat and socialise. It's a thousands times more fun online 'dating' for all parties involved

[PJ71]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Outside Asia I've never bothered

Too expensive?

[Leaver]

12 hours ago, TaaSaparot said:

@Leaver You need a hobby.

 

I'm in Pattaya to practice my hobby.  ???? 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Leaver

[Leaver]

7 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I'd say they haven't done it because the police would aggressively arrest fine and jail all involved. Taking money away from the police won't be allowed.

 

Interesting comment.

 

In the interim, they can keep their bricks and mortar bars on Soi 6, but offer the online service to guys who don't like Soi 6 bars.  I'm not sure how the police lose.  They still get paid their tea money. 

 

As I said, the problem could arise that their online out call service supersedes their in house service, and then they are left with 25 useless bars that they paid big money for.  The thing is, if they don't jump in, they could lose the lot if / when another company does.  

 

How long before one of the agencies sets up a platform and offers a service direct to the customers?

 

What if the website was hosted offshore?  Not much Thai Police can do.  They have the one internet gateway here, and could shut down the website, but they just open up a new one and be operational again in no time. 

 

Are you suggesting the police need to crack down on digital services because they also have a lot invested in the old business model by way of tea money? 

 

It's not like it isn't already happening, so where, exactly, do the police lose money? 

[Leaver]

7 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

How does the landlord "clean-up" when the tenant can't pay?

 

I managed a business here for over 20 years and discussed all manner of business with any number of other business managers and owners and never understood this to be the case.  

 

Indeed

 

I never noticed a lot of girls "working" Central Festival of the lobby of the Hilton.

 

Again, I think this is changing. Do you see a lot of Chinese tourists  buying lady drinks and paying bar-fines? 

 

When the business can no longer pay the rent, it goes broke and quits paying rent. This happens enough, the rent goes down, rent goes down, either property values go down with them, or perhaps a hotel or condo or something else goes up in it's place.

 

I think Festival, the Hilton and any number of other properties would do fine. Walking Street could turn into a more family oriented venue, like a typical seaside boardwalk.

 

Seems to me like sex tourists were already being replaced. Ever been to a beach in India or China?

 

Of much of it, yes. Of all of it? No. 

 

Perhaps in Pattaya, but I have not noticed that here are significantly fewer metered taxies in Bangkok, 

 

When people are unable to pay the rents, the rents will come down, or the buildings will be vacant.

 

Because we all know how stupid Thais are, (particularly RICH Thais) yes? It's your position that the fools would all rather have no money than less money, correct?
 

What of them? 

 

No one has answered, because there is not answer. As bars go out of business, do online prices nit go up? 

 

People don't bat an eye at paying ฿120 for a coffee. Can they get a coffee at 7-11 for ฿25? Sure. Is 7-11 driving sales at Starbucks down? I think not.

 

I'll rephrase: Tourism in Pattaya is more and more family oriented. 

 

Let me guess, down?

 

And most can book sex online without leaving home, why come to Thailand?

 

I do not understand your question, but generally, businesses either adapt to the market, or go under.

 

Again, they adapt to the market or go under.

 

Why is this so confusing for you? 

 

Which can't happen because we all know Thais, particularly RICH Thais are all stupid.

 

22.855%

 

And again, Tinder is global, why come to Thailand to book online sex?

 

I see nothing wrong with people that don't want to go to bars booking online sex, or booking online because it's cheaper. But I think it a little odd that one would book a prostitute online and take her bar-hopping pretending she's their girlfriend. Does that really fool anyone?

 

Your claim that it's "...because they have so much invested in bricks and mortar..." makes no sense. They generally don't own any "brick and mortar".

 

They will adapt or fail.

 

And what if the the rent comes down for brick and mortar and online sales are taxed more heavily, In the US you could "buy online" 100 years ago.

 

Covid will never come to pass.

 

I don't know that, I hear that regurgitated often by others that likely don't know either. 

 

It really means nothing, does it? 

 

Quite a long post, which is perfectly fine, but rather than address each comment individually, I will make a shorter post.

 

The theme I get from your post is that if / when the old business model is digitally disrupted, Thai landlords will be realistic and there will be a market correction in rents, so at least there will still be a few bars here.

 

You suggest this will happen because "rich Thai's aren't stupid."  I've never called rich Thai's stupid, but I have called them corrupt, and greedy, in the past. 

 

We all know many rich Thai's are just sitting on empty condo's.  Even pre covid there were commercial premises in good locations sitting vacant. 

 

How confident are you these rich Thai's will adjust their rents, pretty much across Pattaya City, should the traditional business model be digitally disrupted? 

 

In a transition period, what percentage of bars will be forced to close? 

 

I question whether Thai landlords will make allowances.  There have been covid discounts on rent, but they are set to end soon for many tenants, and tourism is nowhere near 2019 levels, so just how realistic are they?

[Leaver]

8 hours ago, PJ71 said:

Create a poll and see what the majority reckons, i think we know the answer.

 

So much for freedom of speech.  ???? 

[Leaver]

2 hours ago, The Hammer2021 said:

After  a 2 year lockdown most people want to exercise  there freedom to dance, pub crawl , bar hop, revisit old haunts, explore new places, go out to eat ,talk  chat and socialise. It's a thousands times more fun online 'dating' for all parties involved

 

Once again, and I've said it so many times, there seems to be a false impression that if one dials up a girl online, she arrives at the hotel, goes upstairs for an hour, gets paid, and leaves. 

 

Yes, this is possible, but both short time and long time, and everything in between, is available online. 

 

Messages are exchanged, perhaps a short video call, and you can arrange to meet the girl in a bar.  You can have a chat and drink with her, then either go a short distance to your hotel / condo / house for an hour, or, go out dancing, clubbing, to dinner, whatever.

 

I always arrange to meet them at a bar for a drink, and if I like the vibe, sometimes I've gone long time and haven't got home to the early hours.   

 

A few of these girls I will message sometimes and say, "You have customer tonight darling?"  Reply, "No."  Me:  "Ok, we go long time again, meet me in same bar 5pm."  Reply, "Ok."  Job done.  No, "You must come to bar and pay bar fine" etc etc. 

 

It can be the same experience, minus all the bar BS. 

 

Once again, I feel for the bar owners, who have to navigate unreasonable rents, from unreasonable Thai landlords, but I'm not here to make donations to Thai landlords. 

[CG1 Blue]

21 minutes ago, Leaver said:

Messages are exchanged, perhaps a short video call, and you can arrange to meet the girl in a bar.  You can have a chat and drink with her, then either go a short distance to your hotel / condo / house for an hour, or, go out dancing, clubbing, to dinner, whatever.

 

I always arrange to meet them at a bar for a drink, and if I like the vibe, sometimes I've gone long time and haven't got home to the early hours.   

I much prefer going to a bar and seeing all that's available, and making choices as the night progresses. I wouldn't want a pre-arranged 'date' myself. That would take some of the fun out of it for me. 

 

But (thankfully) we're all different. 

[Leaver]

4 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I much prefer going to a bar and seeing all that's available, and making choices as the night progresses. I wouldn't want a pre-arranged 'date' myself. That would take some of the fun out of it for me. 

 

But (thankfully) we're all different. 

 

Sure, I get that, no problem.

 

However, I have asked, and yet to receive a reply from any member criticizing the online method, what is the line in the sand for you for lady drinks and bar fine prices? 

 

Would you be prepared to pay 250 baht for a lady drink and 1500 baht for a bar fine? 

 

I can only see as online gains in popularity, the lady drinks and bar fine prices will have to increase, because they were a traditional earner for bars, and the more they increase, the more it knocks out of the game. 

 

As I have said, Thai landlords may have to share some of this pain, or a lot of bars will close in the future. 

[Yellowtail]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

 

Quite a long post, which is perfectly fine, but rather than address each comment individually, I will make a shorter post.

And addressing the points you can't. 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

The theme I get from your post is that if / when the old business model is digitally disrupted, Thai landlords will be realistic and there will be a market correction in rents, so at least there will still be a few bars here.

No, that was not the "theme" of my post.

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

You suggest this will happen because "rich Thai's aren't stupid."  I've never called rich Thai's stupid, but I have called them corrupt, and greedy, in the past. 

What's the difference?

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

We all know many rich Thai's are just sitting on empty condo's.  Even pre covid there were commercial premises in good locations sitting vacant. 

Point? 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

How confident are you these rich Thai's will adjust their rents, pretty much across Pattaya City, should the traditional business model be digitally disrupted? 

Not at all. How confident are you that they will not? 

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

In a transition period, what percentage of bars will be forced to close? 

28.745%

 

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

I question whether Thai landlords will make allowances.  There have been covid discounts on rent, but they are set to end soon for many tenants, and tourism is nowhere near 2019 levels, so just how realistic are they?

You either think they are stupid or you don't. you can't have it both ways. 

[scubascuba3]

In the last week Beach Road freelancers are getting back to normal and lots of Indians around so things are changing fast

[CG1 Blue]

37 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Sure, I get that, no problem.

 

However, I have asked, and yet to receive a reply from any member criticizing the online method, what is the line in the sand for you for lady drinks and bar fine prices? 

 

Would you be prepared to pay 250 baht for a lady drink and 1500 baht for a bar fine? 

 

I can only see as online gains in popularity, the lady drinks and bar fine prices will have to increase, because they were a traditional earner for bars, and the more they increase, the more it knocks out of the game. 

 

As I have said, Thai landlords may have to share some of this pain, or a lot of bars will close in the future. 

I honestly think the vast majority of men who go to places like Pattaya prefer to have a fun night out and choose a lady as they go along. The percentage who prefer to pre-arrange a 'date' is too low to destroy the current model. 

Before online apps there was a small percentage of men who liked to meet girls in the daytime, and arrange to meet them later for drinks and ST/LT, to avoid the bar fines etc. I suspect it's those blokes who now use the online apps. 

Once all the Covid restrictions are lifted I think there will be more than enough punters to keep the traditional model going. So I think your question is a moot one. 

[Leaver]

26 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

No, that was not the "theme" of my post.

 

Yeah, it was.  You basically said, if Thai landlords refuse to make a market correction on rents, due to digital disruption of the traditional bar business model, then it's over for bars. 

 

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

What's the difference?

 

Corrupt and greedy people aren't necessarily stupid. 

 

30 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Point? 

 

Maybe they will sit on vacant commercial premises as well.  I have no idea why, maybe it's a face thing. 

 

31 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Not at all. How confident are you that they will not? 

 

I'm pretty confident they will not, until it's obvious to them that if there is no market correction, their land is near worthless. 

 

37 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

28.745%

 

Near 30%.  Fair play. 

 

I was thinking a little higher, around 40%. 

 

39 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

You either think they are stupid or you don't. you can't have it both ways. 

 

As I have said, I have called them corrupt, and I have called them greed, but never stupid. 

 

Greedy does tend to cloud reason. 

[owl sees all]

1 hour ago, Leaver said:

Would you be prepared to pay 250 baht for a lady drink and 1500 baht for a bar fine? 

Beach Road at 4 in the morning.

 

Cheap as chips.

[Leaver]

24 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I honestly think the vast majority of men who go to places like Pattaya prefer to have a fun night out and choose a lady as they go along. The percentage who prefer to pre-arrange a 'date' is too low to destroy the current model. 

Before online apps there was a small percentage of men who liked to meet girls in the daytime, and arrange to meet them later for drinks and ST/LT, to avoid the bar fines etc. I suspect it's those blokes who now use the online apps. 

Once all the Covid restrictions are lifted I think there will be more than enough punters to keep the traditional model going. So I think your question is a moot one. 

 

How long do you think the traditional bar business model can continue for?  Profits will be cut into, which then raises prices on those customers who prefer the tradition business model.  You didn't indicate at what prices would you refuse to pay. 

 

I've never arranged to meet a lady in the day to discuss meeting at night, and I use the apps. 

 

Hardly a moot point.  I am looking beyond the end of covid, I thought that was clear, but it's certainly not as long as 5 years away, more like 2 to 3 years., in my opinion. 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Leaver

[scubascuba3]

5 minutes ago, owl sees all said:

Beach Road at 4 in the morning.

 

Cheap as chips.

LBs?

[kinyara]

Seems to me " digital support " was more of a thing during covid, with virtual bell ringing via livestreams supporting the traditional model of lady drinks from customers who weren't even in the country. Says a lot about customer loyalty/(gullability)  and their willingness to part with cash for nothing in return.