UK tells EU: back down by Sunday night or we'll walk

[JonnyF]

19 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Liam Fox speaking in 2017? A year after the referendum and at the point where suddenly the Brexit fundamentalists in the Conservative party STARTED talking about no deal. Bit late after the votes are counted eh?

Johnson, Gove, Farage and vote leave were all claiming BEFORE the referendum we would get a deal.

There is no mandate for leaving with no deal. Thats not what the people were promised.

If the quote is too late to be relevant to the discussion, why do you partially misquote it 5 times a day?

 

If you're going to quote it anyway, at least use the full quote, not misquote a selected sentence to mislead people about the point Fox was making. I've highlighted the important parts in red so you can be more accurate next time. It's even from your favourite source. You're welcome.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history

[Laughing Gravy]

12 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

If the quote is too late to be relevant to the discussion, why do you partially misquote it 5 times a day?

 

If you're going to quote it anyway, at least use the full quote, not misquote a selected sentence to mislead people about the point Fox was making. I've highlighted the important parts in red so you can be more accurate next time. It's even from your favourite source. You're welcome.

 

Class pure quality.

 

Its called selective remainerism  Soon to be added to the Collins dictionary. ????

[Hi from France]

56 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

So let me explain it for a final time. We don't want to follow EU rules. We want to make our own rules. It doesn't matter if EU rules are good rules or bad rules. We don't want to follow them. Please read this post 10 times and let me know if there are any questions. Good lad.

first what allows you to use the "we"?

 

besides the obvious fact that a majority of the population is against brexit , 

 

Quote

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU?

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/?removed 

 

 

so who is your "we" ? obviously not the majority of the UK population (even less Northern Ireland or Scotland who ironically are more pro-EU than most EU countries)

 

 

 

 

 

now beside not wanting to leave the EU (too late now!) the second question now is "do we want to follow UE rules" ? As you say 

Quote

It doesn't matter if EU rules are good rules or bad rules. We don't want to follow them.

 

on this question, we have polls too

Quote

Are you supportive of rejoining the EU, of a trade deal where the UK is closely aligned with the EU, of a trade deal where the UK has a clear break from the EU, or of ending the transition period without a deal?

 

 

 

there, once the UK citizen are obliged to leave, it's a fifty-fifty "follow EU rules" or "not follow"

 

 

 

so, I leave it to you to use bayesian inference and calculate what actual percentage of the population is your "We don't want to follow them"...

 

 

in terms of pollution, carbon dioxide emission, workers right, protection of privacy etc.. EU rules can actually be considered pretty cool. Now, the UK could do faster and better on things like animal welfare (but then, forget about chlorinated chicken and a FTA with the USA)

 

 

 

A third question would be 

Quote

"We don't want to follow them"

 

.. but are you going to follow them anyway. As the previous podcast shows, the UK has paid a huge price for the right to diverge.

 

 

 

 

The question of future years is "now it can, will the UK diverge or not" ? Given that the present deal will put a price tag on divergence, that remains to be seen.

 

 

 

Every hypothetical divergence would a/ be payed by the british worker/taxpayer and b/ won't even deliver a competitive advantage

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Hi from France

[robblok]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Rob, I know you're a bit of a slow learner, we saw that when it took you 4 years to work out that the Junta didn't seize power from a democratically elected government for the benefit of all the poor Thai people.

 

So let me explain it for a final time. We don't want to follow EU rules. We want to make our own rules. It doesn't matter if EU rules are good rules or bad rules. We don't want to follow them. Please read this post 10 times and let me know if there are any questions. Good lad.

AH so it does not matter if rules are good or bad as long as they don't come from the EU that makes a lot of sense (not much in my book not at all as all that matters for me is the result. I am probably a lot more pragmatic then you something nationalist lack)

 

Thing is your so called freedom to set the rules will always be bound to international accords. Just like the Nato sets rules for the army. (also the UK can't diverge from those unilaterally). That is what happens when you live in an interconnected world and trade. 

 

I might be a slow learner (according to you my grades say otherwise), but at least I got an idea how the world works not based on strange nationalistic feeling. 

 

But even BJ understands this that is why he now does agree about the EU labor protection. Not sure why its so hard for you to understand. You can still have your sovereignty but the moment you enter into a accord on defence or trade you will have to give up some of those rights. Its not that hard to understand except for nationalists.

[vogie]

33 minutes ago, robblok said:

AH so it does not matter if rules are good or bad as long as they don't come from the EU that makes a lot of sense (not much in my book not at all as all that matters for me is the result. I am probably a lot more pragmatic then you something nationalist lack)

 

Thing is your so called freedom to set the rules will always be bound to international accords. Just like the Nato sets rules for the army. (also the UK can't diverge from those unilaterally). That is what happens when you live in an interconnected world and trade. 

 

I might be a slow learner (according to you my grades say otherwise), but at least I got an idea how the world works not based on strange nationalistic feeling. 

 

But even BJ understands this that is why he now does agree about the EU labor protection. Not sure why its so hard for you to understand. You can still have your sovereignty but the moment you enter into a accord on defence or trade you will have to give up some of those rights. Its not that hard to understand except for nationalists.

Rob, I think by calling all people nationalists that voted to leave the EU is very disingenuous either that or you are baiting.

The truth of the matter is that there is no call for nationalism in England (I know your digs are usually aimed at the English). We have no policital parties that are nationalists because as I said we do not need one, there is much more nationalism in the EU than we could ever imagine in the UK (apart from the SNP of course).

These are the parties of europe.

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by vogie

[david555]

 

( So....quota 's sold to foreign can keep fishing U.K. waters .... )

 

 

 

UK drops push for renationalising of fishing vessels in Brexit talks
No 10 said to have reached a compromise over fishing vessels to be majority British-owned in future

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/15/uk-drops-push-for-renationalising-of-fishing-vessels-in-brexit-talks

Daniel Boffey in Brussels and Peter Walker
Tue 15 Dec 2020 19.51 GMT

 

Downing Street has watered down a key demand over post-Brexit fishing rights as part of a broader compromise, EU sources said as Germany’s ambassador in Brussels said there was a chance of a deal by the weekend.

 

The UK dropped a push for fishing vessels operating under the UK flag to be majority British-owned in the future, it was claimed.

 

It came as Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leader of the Commons who is responsible for its timetable, suggested it was “theoretically possible” that MPs could be asked to approve a trade deal retrospectively.

[Surelynot]

11 hours ago, Surelynot said:

Looks like another fold on its way..........he has got to get a decent hand eventually... 

Dominos....another one falls.

[Surelynot]

9 hours ago, katana said:

Seems there's some confusion as to what actually happened. Later on in the grauniad article you quote, it says:
"The suggestion that the UK had made a key concession riled officials in London, who hit out at what they described as “inaccurate briefings” by the Brussels negotiators.
'Talks remain difficult and we have not made significant progress in recent days, despite efforts by the UK side to bring energy and ideas to the process,' a UK government source said.
The inaccurate briefings from the EU side in recent days have made a difficult discussion even more challenging in the short period of time we have left.' "

They will be saying things like they made no concessions 5 mins before they sign a deal..........Trump has taught them well.

[CorpusChristie]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

 

 

But even BJ understands this that is why he now does agree about the EU labor protection. Not sure why its so hard for you to understand. You can still have your sovereignty but the moment you enter into a accord on defence or trade you will have to give up some of those rights. Its not that hard to understand except for nationalists.

 

   Does that apply to the E.U as well ?

When the E.U enter into an accord on defence or trade , the E.U also has to give up some of their rights ?

Or is it E.U Uber alles ?

[CorpusChristie]

1 minute ago, Surelynot said:

They will be saying things like they made no concessions 5 mins before they sign a deal..........Trump has taught them well.

 

  Predicting what someone will say and then suggesting who taught them that prediction ???? 

[Hi from France]

3 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

They will be saying things like they made no concessions 5 mins before they sign a deal..........Trump has taught them well.

there will be concessions, but overall, the UK (Scotland mainly in fact) will be able to fish more, no doubt.

 

 

now it's a huge price to pay, it would have been cheaper and faster to simply buy back the quotas the UK sold in the past if there was really a regret selling them in the first place ?

[david555]

1 minute ago, Hi from France said:

there will be concessions, but overall, the UK (Scotland mainly in fact) will be able to fish more, no doubt.

 

 

now it's a huge price to pay, it would have been cheaper and faster to simply buy back the quotas the UK sold in the past if there was really a regret selling them in the first place ?

But could that means also some more could be bought ...if available ? ????

[Hi from France]

13 minutes ago, david555 said:

But could that means also some more could be bought ...if available ? ????

as you say

 

for me knowing now that a deal is coming, the next phase will be to analyse that deal knowing that the whole brexit demand was an increasing ability to diverge from the UE.

 

in the past 45 years in the EU, the UK was known for divergence, asking for special deals, opt outs and contributing less than other European nations.

• now the financial contribution will it be zero ? Or is there still a price tag on everything so that the UK could end up paying more and having no say?
• on immigration the UK will have its own point system. The problem will be to find the missing 40.000 nurses, or the 18% European academics or the 120.000 students..
• the hostile environment policy + the upfront visa cost will not help ; And anyway, the poor economic situation does not make the UK an attractive destination except for the poorest immigrants
• on regulation that's the question I asked above : the UK can diverge now, but will get tariffs proportionally to the competitive advantage gained. So will it really diverge and to what end?

 

 

 

about the thing which I know most, studying and research, even before Brexit, the UK is unattractive

Quote

United Kingdom universities could suffer a 25% drop in international students as a result of the government decision to end home student status for them in England, according to a new survey.

 

Some 84% of prospective European Union (EU) students say they will ‘definitely not’ study in the UK if the decision means their tuition fees will be doubled.

 

In addition, 56% of prospective students say they will be affected by the removal of access to student loans, which was also announced.

 

The Netherlands and Germany could benefit as the most popular alternative destinations if UK fees become unaffordable.

 https://www.universityworldnews.com/post.php?story=2020070108154994

 

Tuition fees are more in line with the US than with other European nations, so UK universities are already the most expensive in Europe”

 

 

 

.. add Brexit and the "hostile environment" policy to the mix

 

 

I think the UK will not attract "the best students", but rather target those who are both average and wealthy.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Hi from France

[Surelynot]

30 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  Predicting what someone will say and then suggesting who taught them that prediction ???? 

Spotters badge.

[CorpusChristie]

6 minutes ago, david555 said:

and hopin their lives not becomes ruined because a complete lie that brexit was as promised

 

  Nope, you are the one who is lying , the only promise was that we would leave the E.U.

The ones who keep accursing others of lying are usually the biggest liars of them all 

[david555]

1 minute ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  Nope, you are the one who is lying , the only promise was that we would leave the E.U.

The ones who keep accursing others of lying are usually the biggest liars of them all 

i don't go turn in circles with you as you try with others ....????

[Surelynot]

12 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  We've never been really friendly with our neighbors ,  We've never really liked the French 

And the most cretinous statement of the day goes to..........

[Surelynot]

9 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

The ones who keep accursing others of lying are usually the biggest liars of them all 

Yet another lie.....oh...forgot...you don't understand humor.

[luckyluke]

3 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

the only promise was that we would leave the E.U.

Correct.

 

The problem being that nearly every Leave voter had/has a different opinion of what that would represent.

 

There were no really indications/plans,

only sometimes suggestions as : "The money we will spare from the contribution to the E.U., will go to the N.H.S.",

but not a guarantee it would happen.

 

For the Remainers, the indications/plans were very clear, impossible to misinterpret :

 

" Nothing will change ".

 

[CorpusChristie]

5 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

There were no really indications/plans,

only sometimes suggestions as : "The money we will spare from the contribution to the E.U., will go to the N.H.S.",

but not a guarantee it would happen.

 

   The slogan didnt even say the money would go to the NHS , it was just a suggestion as to where the money COULD be spent 

[CorpusChristie]

15 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Yet another lie.....oh...forgot...you don't understand humor.

 

  Do point out the joke/humour in the post that I replied to .

[luckyluke]

1 minute ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

   The slogan didnt even say the money would go to the NHS , it was just a suggestion as to where the money COULD be spent 

 

Do  I misinterpret your post ?

But that's what I wrote.

 

There were no really indications/plans,

only sometimes suggestions as : "The money we will spare from the contribution to the E.U., will go to the N.H.S.",

but not a guarantee it would happen.

 

 

[CorpusChristie]

28 minutes ago, david555 said:

well that is a true confession from a right wing nationalist .....wait your next election .... can be fun  

 

  The next UK election will be interesting .

All the (former) Labour voters who changed to vote Conservative , because Conservatives accepted the will of the people and Labour disregarded what the people voted for , will those voters stay with the Conservatives or revert back to Labour ?

  Will the life long Labour voters forgive the Labour party for their treachery ?

[CorpusChristie]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

 

Do  I misinterpret your post ?

But that's what I wrote.

 

There were no really indications/plans,

only sometimes suggestions as : "The money we will spare from the contribution to the E.U., will go to the N.H.S.",

but not a guarantee it would happen.

 

 

 

  Exchange the "will" for *could*

[luckyluke]

52 minutes ago, vogie said:

whilst hoping the UK will suffer

Not that sure it is "hoping",

 

but of course anyone can have his own perception of a situation.

 

Mine is " afraid that the U.K. will suffer ".

[vinny41]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

first what allows you to use the "we"?

 

besides the obvious fact that a majority of the population is against brexit , 

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/?removed 

 

 

so who is your "we" ? obviously not the majority of the UK population (even less Northern Ireland or Scotland who ironically are more pro-EU than most EU countries)

 

 

 

 

 

now beside not wanting to leave the EU (too late now!) the second question now is "do we want to follow UE rules" ? As you say 

 

on this question, we have polls too

 

 

 

there, once the UK citizen are obliged to leave, it's a fifty-fifty "follow EU rules" or "not follow"

 

 

 

so, I leave it to you to use bayesian inference and calculate what actual percentage of the population is your "We don't want to follow them"...

 

 

in terms of pollution, carbon dioxide emission, workers right, protection of privacy etc.. EU rules can actually be considered pretty cool. Now, the UK could do faster and better on things like animal welfare (but then, forget about chlorinated chicken and a FTA with the USA)

 

 

 

A third question would be 

 

.. but are you going to follow them anyway. As the previous podcast shows, the UK has paid a huge price for the right to diverge.

 

 

 

 

The question of future years is "now it can, will the UK diverge or not" ? Given that the present deal will put a price tag on divergence, that remains to be seen.

 

 

 

Every hypothetical divergence would a/ be payed by the british worker/taxpayer and b/ won't even deliver a competitive advantage

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if you look at the sponsor data and size data you will see sponsor is "The Times" will known remainer media outlet and the sample data is between 1600-1700

It would be more interesting if you find a poll that goes against the agenda of the sponsor but i suspect no such poll exists

[bert bloggs]

1 hour ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  The next UK election will be interesting .

All the (former) Labour voters who changed to vote Conservative , because Conservatives accepted the will of the people and Labour disregarded what the people voted for , will those voters stay with the Conservatives or revert back to Labour ?

  Will the life long Labour voters forgive the Labour party for their treachery ?

And complete and utter stupidity,

[CorpusChristie]

37 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

if you look at the sponsor data and size data you will see sponsor is "The Times" will known remainer media outlet and the sample data is between 1600-1700

It would be more interesting if you find a poll that goes against the agenda of the sponsor but i suspect no such poll exists

 

  And from the results show , in the poll  from December 2020 shows 54 % of people thought leaving the E.U was a bad idea , that was during the last election period when an overwhelming majority of people voted for Brexit , by way of election .

  The small poll says one thing , the General election says something different .

Which one to believe ?

A General election when the whole Country is asked or a poll when a few people are asked ?

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

 

  And from the results show , in the poll  from December 2020 shows 54 % of people thought leaving the E.U was a bad idea , that was during the last election period when an overwhelming majority of people voted for Brexit , by way of election .

  The small poll says one thing , the General election says something different .

Which one to believe ?

A General election when the whole Country is asked or a poll when a few people are asked ?

A media outlet approaches a polling company

they want a poll but they are not sure if the results will meet their agenda

Polling company states no problems we will skew the question to provide you with the results that you seek

media outlet how can you guarantee that the people taking part in the poll will answer the way i want them to

Polling company No problem we have a huge online database of people and we know their political persuasion based on previous polls that they have completed, we will also send the poll to a small number of people that will answer not in your favour as a poll that shows 100% in your favour might look dodgy

But we can  guarantee a poll results  that meets your agenda

[onthedarkside]

An off-topic diversion of posts re emoticon trolling/abuse has been removed.

 

If anyone feels emoticon trolling of their posts is occurring, they should report the offending posts.