2012 Hilux Vigo Champ 2.5 Turbo Diesel Engine Noise

[Formaleins]

Anyone experience a strange sort of noise on the 2.5 Turbo Diesel on a cold start? It is a bit difficult to describe but the best way I can try to convey it is that when you start the truck cold and give it some gas you get a sort of low growling noise until it hits about 1800 RPM, if you back off the throttle it disappears, it is only under moderate to hard acceleration when the engine is cold.

 

After about 5 minutes it disappears completely, there is no smoke or any other weird behaviour at cold or warm, it has good power so other than the strange noise (not really a clatter more of a growling sound) the engine seems fine. Googled the death rattle / clatter on line and mine is not the same sound as others were posting saying it was injectors.

 

This has about 67000KM on the clock, 2012, burns no oil, virtually no blow back, the engine in all respects seems good, loads of power compared to my old 3.0L EFI on the Tiger, so is it anything to worry about? Could it be valves?

 

I've ran a couple of bottles of Techron Fuel System cleaner through it and a couple of bottles of Wurth Injector cleaner as well over the last 6000KM (it had 60000 when I bought it) seems very smooth, just that cold start noise. 

 

Cheers!

Edited December 14, 2020 by Formaleins

[ktm jeff]

First , i wouldnt give it hard acceleration while the engine is still cold. Not good for any engine. Could the rumble be the viscous fan clutch hub , or even the air con pump. Can you disconnect each one ?.

[Formaleins]

No, I generally baby it, just give it a little nudge now and again. Fan clutch is fine, air con is fine, this is a rumble in the engine. It occurs just as you open the throttle enough to pull, it is sort of a grumble when the throttle is just opening on acceleration, nothing to do with ancillary components.

[ktm jeff]

HMMM.  What is the vehicle model. Would it be something to do with the emission control systems. Does it go through a "process" as it warms up. Would the EGR / bypass system alter the engine/exhaust note. It could cause a resonance within the engine bay.

[ktm jeff]

Variable vane turbo. Something sticking.

[Formaleins]

21 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

HMMM.  What is the vehicle model. Would it be something to do with the emission control systems. Does it go through a "process" as it warms up. Would the EGR / bypass system alter the engine/exhaust note. It could cause a resonance within the engine bay.

That is interesting, you might be onto something here. This one id fitted with an EGR partial blanking plate (it has a 13mm hole drilled through it so it still allows for partial EGR but without the clogging) - However, as far as I remember, I am almost sure it made the noise before the plate was fitted.

It is interesting what you mention about exhaust, as that is exactly what it sounds like, almost like a deep low ping as if the exhaust is leaking (but it isn't) - I might take it to my Toyota dealer as the guys here are extremely honest and have never gave me any BS in almost 20 years.

Not sure what it might cost for them to run a scantool on it and check it out.

Thanks for your time, hot me thinking now.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Formaleins

[Formaleins]

21 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

Variable vane turbo. Something sticking.

Cheers, this model does not have the VVT, it is a 2012 model, just the basic turbo and intercooler. If you can try to picture it, when it is cold and you accelerate you get this rumbling sound, if you keep your foot still on the throttle, as soon as the engine equalises its load in respect to the throttle position the noise disappears, if you then throttle it again the noise comes back until it reaches its happy speed then goes off again. After it is warmed up it is barely audible under any throttle condition. (It completely disappears once you get above about 1800 RPM under any throttle condition) as I said before, there isn't even a puff of smoke at cold start or under any load.

I had been reading on some Australian 4 x 4 sites that the D4D is a bit rattley when cold, I just don't want to find it is some sort of pinking or pre ignition due to injectors. Not really keen to blow a hole in the pistons.

I had an old 3.0 EFI, and for about 14 years it made a strange "chuffing" noise every time you touched the throttle. Toyota guys couldn't even hear the sound, it came on about 2 years after I bought it but it ran for 250,000km without issue until my idiot son wrote it off into a ditch.

I just worry about all this "Eco" <deleted> they have to fit onto the trucks these days for the benefit of tree huggers, everything seems compromised to "Save The Planet" at the expense of reliability and performance.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Formaleins

[Crossy]

I'm no expert, but a rumble under load when cold = main bearings in my (ancient) book.

 

If the oil pressure is good and it's otherwise behaving I'd leave it alone, just be nice to it when it's cold.

 

EDIT Can you get STP or Wynns (or a similar friction modifier) here? A can in with the next oil change may shut the beast up.

 

Don't forget a banana (with peel) in the axle or manual gearbox will also cure any annoying whine for long enough to sell it too

[Formaleins]

Just now, Crossy said:

I'm no expert, but a rumble under load when cold = main bearings in my (ancient) book.

 

If the oil pressure is good and it's otherwise behaving I'd leave it alone, just be nice to it when it's cold.

I know what you are on about, but it is not a bearing type knock, that is a terrible sound, this is a bit like KTM JEFF said, it is like a pinging / rattle / rumble that sounds a bit like an exhaust sound. Really difficult to explain. I might try and record it tomorrow when it is cold. Bearing knock is a lot less subtle than this sound, it is deep low note but with an almost "cracking sound" That is why I am worried it might be something to do with the injectors. (pinking - but deeper sound as well)

 

Drained the oil after 5000 km and it is as clear as tap water compared to the old EFI, which would turn jet black after 100km, no sign of white metal, cut the oil filter open and it was clean too.

 

I did add some of that fuel line system cleaner from Techron in the first couple of tanks, then another couple of injector cleaner from Wurth in the last two tanks, maybe it has increased the Cetane rating and causing a bit of pre ignition. Next fill up will just be standard Diesel, (non of that Bio junk) give it a run and see what happens.

 

I also noticed that it has this "regenerator" light on the dash but in the last 6000 KM it has never come on when driving, I understand it needs to get to a certain temperature before it will trigger, (some people told me it should trigger every few hundred KM, but I know nothing of this system) Any info on this junk would be interesting too! (I am old school on motors) Ford Yorkie and Cummings Diesel motors on Transits back in the '80's! - Never had a turbo or an intercooler before, let alone any such madness as an EGR where it stuffs filth (unfiltered) back through your intake!!! Madness.

[Crossy]

4 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

I know what you are on about, but it is not a bearing type knock, that is a terrible sound

 

Big-ends knock and clatter, as you say awful sound (although a blown head gasket can make a very similar sound to the uninitiated).

Mains rumble, no real knock more of a growl.

 

Does it have a dual-mass flywheel? Any vibration on idle?

 

If you're worried take it to an expert (good luck there).

 

[Formaleins]

11 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

Big-ends knock and clatter, as you say awful sound (although a blown head gasket can make a very similar sound to the uninitiated).

Mains rumble, no real knock more of a growl.

 

Does it have a dual-mass flywheel? Any vibration on idle?

 

If you're worried take it to an expert (good luck there).

 

Cheers, no idea at all about the flywheel. No vibration at all at idle, it sounds really "Tight" kind of "pingy" No signs of water in the oil or oil in the water - if anything it sounds as if the compression is really good. (If you take the oil filler cap off or pull out the dipstick and give it some revs, there is barely any blow by, it is amazing compared to the older EFI) Uses not a drop of oil - maybe I am being paranoid (as my mate keeps telling me) but I hate strange noises on an unknown truck. It might just be the new tech on these trucks as I haven't really had it long enough to get to know it properly, it is a bit unnerving having no free play in the steering, brakes are vicious (non ABS Version)

 

It feels a bit like when I hired a new Ford Focus in the UK last February, overly sensitive to every input, I was used to having to grip the steering wheel to get enough leverage to apply the brakes and I was quite happy with a couple of inches of free play on the steering. These things react to the slightest input.

 

I think I will take it to my Unusual Toyota dealer here in San Patong - They actively encourage me NOT to spend money! Great guys!  (I had some ball joint / suspension issues with the old Tiger, they pointed out that there was a rubber mount on the gearbox that was knackered. this thing cost somewhere in the region of 15000 Baht!, they told me not to bother changing it as it did virtually nothing, and they were 100% correct, truck ran for 100,000 km with no issues.) I trust them 100%. unlike their parent company in the city that will fleece you for anything they can collect.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Formaleins

[Inepto Cracy]

Hi google this product from boat people, this will sort out your problems if I don't get a suspension for mentioning the product here? Star brite Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment - Super Concentrated Diesel Formula.

[Formaleins]

21 minutes ago, Inepto Cracy said:

Hi google this product from boat people, this will sort out your problems if I don't get a suspension for mentioning the product here?  

Thanks! Jesus, it is even available on Lazada for 899 Baht, I will have a read and maybe try a bottle, looks interesting. Hell, what is in that stuff? 8 Fl/Oz. treats 256 GALLONS!

Edited December 15, 2020 by Formaleins

[thaisail]

23 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

Cheers, no idea at all about the flywheel. No vibration at all at idle, it sounds really "Tight" kind of "pingy" No signs of water in the oil or oil in the water - if anything it sounds as if the compression is really good. (If you take the oil filler cap off or pull out the dipstick and give it some revs, there is barely any blow by, it is amazing compared to the older EFI) Uses not a drop of oil - maybe I am being paranoid (as my mate keeps telling me) but I hate strange noises on an unknown truck. It might just be the new tech on these trucks as I haven't really had it long enough to get to know it properly, it is a bit unnerving having no free play in the steering, brakes are vicious (non ABS Version)

 

It feels a bit like when I hired a new Ford Focus in the UK last February, overly sensitive to every input, I was used to having to grip the steering wheel to get enough leverage to apply the brakes and I was quite happy with a couple of inches of free play on the steering. These things react to the slightest input.

 

I think I will take it to my Unusual Toyota dealer here in San Patong - They actively encourage me NOT to spend money! Great guys!  (I had some ball joint / suspension issues with the old Tiger, they pointed out that there was a rubber mount on the gearbox that was knackered. this thing cost somewhere in the region of 15000 Baht!, they told me not to bother changing it as it did virtually nothing, and they were 100% correct, truck ran for 100,000 km with no issues.) I trust them 100%. unlike their parent company in the city that will fleece you for anything they can collect.

The recent switch from Diesel to B10 may be the culprit. Not sure what Toyota says about B10 but now when you by Diesel, that is what you get.

[Formaleins]

Just now, thaisail said:

The recent switch from Diesel to B10 may be the culprit. Not sure what Toyota says about B10 but now when you by Diesel, that is what you get.

Thanks for the info, someone told me a similar story a few weeks back that here in Thailand that regular "Diesel" (not advertised as Bio Diesel) just regular PTT etc. actually is partly made up from Bio Diesel, is that true? - What about something like Shell Power? If that is the case then it looks like I will be buying some additives to counteract the Eco policy! How much more can these idiots do to prematurely destroy engines in their insane quest to save the Earth? Hell, the Earth is doing just fine. When we eventually wipe ourselves out, it will probably take a fortnight for nature to reclaim the planet. If I don't use weedkiller or cut the grass, it is like a jungle here in 5 days!

[canthai55]

I repaired a car in my younger days, guy said it was a horrible knocking sound.

He was right, could have sworn it was a wrist pin gone.

Turned out to be an exhaust leak, which went away as the engine heated up.

First rule in troubleshooting - KISS

[Formaleins]

2 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

I repaired a car in my younger days, guy said it was a horrible knocking sound.

He was right, could have sworn it was a wrist pin gone.

Turned out to be an exhaust leak, which went away as the engine heated up.

First rule in troubleshooting - KISS

Thanks, very good advice! I just have very little experience of modern engines, you can hardly get at any of the components these days, the entire engine bays are so full of plastic and junk you cannot even get in with a spanner!

[thaisail]

14 minutes ago, Formaleins said:

Thanks for the info, someone told me a similar story a few weeks back that here in Thailand that regular "Diesel" (not advertised as Bio Diesel) just regular PTT etc. actually is partly made up from Bio Diesel, is that true? - What about something like Shell Power? If that is the case then it looks like I will be buying some additives to counteract the Eco policy! How much more can these idiots do to prematurely destroy engines in their insane quest to save the Earth? Hell, the Earth is doing just fine. When we eventually wipe ourselves out, it will probably take a fortnight for nature to reclaim the planet. If I don't use weedkiller or cut the grass, it is like a jungle here in 5 days!

I don't think you can buy any diesel fuel in Thailand that does not contain bio fuel. The main issue palm oil is that it will slowly separate from the mineral oil. This takes a long time but if you park your truck for 6 months you could get some issues. This is more of a concern in cold climates but it is getting pretty cold these days in Chiang Khan!

 

As for the pollution issue, there is really not much help by burning bio fuel because we are burning down the big trees in the rain forest to plant these oil palms and I really think we are doing more damage than good. We also need to investigate the source of this palm oil and you will find some wealthy land owners in Thailand that have some sort of sweetheart deal with PTT, Shell and the government agency that controls the fuel quality. It would be good to find out who holds the chanote for the land between the four lanes going from Krabi to the main highway to Bangkok. You may find out why we have made this switch to Bio diesel recently.

[Formaleins]

11 minutes ago, thaisail said:

I don't think you can buy any diesel fuel in Thailand that does not contain bio fuel. The main issue palm oil is that it will slowly separate from the mineral oil. This takes a long time but if you park your truck for 6 months you could get some issues. This is more of a concern in cold climates but it is getting pretty cold these days in Chiang Khan!

 

As for the pollution issue, there is really not much help by burning bio fuel because we are burning down the big trees in the rain forest to plant these oil palms and I really think we are doing more damage than good. We also need to investigate the source of this palm oil and you will find some wealthy land owners in Thailand that have some sort of sweetheart deal with PTT, Shell and the government agency that controls the fuel quality. It would be good to find out who holds the chanote for the land between the four lanes going from Krabi to the main highway to Bangkok. You may find out why we have made this switch to Bio diesel recently.

Interesting, probably best not to dig too deep or you might wake up dead or disappeared. From what I have read is that Bio Diesel does not have a high enough Cetane rating to burn cleanly, by no means an expert, so I could be completely wrong. any info appreciated and thanks for chipping in!

As far as I am concerned, all of this "Save the planet" stuff is a fools paradise, where do these people think the electric comes  from to recharge their cars? It is usually generated by coal/gas/oil fired power stations that then have to transmit the power over huge distances. who are they kidding, they are just passing off the guilt.

 

Think of all the land that could have produced food that has now been turned over to Bio Fuels...as you say, the burning down of forests to plant this cash crop.

 

Maybe time to look at cars that you stick a cow in the back and it runs on farts of methane!

Edited December 15, 2020 by Formaleins

[thaisail]

1 hour ago, Formaleins said:

Interesting, probably best not to dig too deep or you might wake up dead or disappeared. From what I have read is that Bio Diesel does not have a high enough Cetane rating to burn cleanly, by no means an expert, so I could be completely wrong. any info appreciated and thanks for chipping in!

As far as I am concerned, all of this "Save the planet" stuff is a fools paradise, where do these people think the electric comes  from to recharge their cars? It is usually generated by coal/gas/oil fired power stations that then have to transmit the power over huge distances. who are they kidding, they are just passing off the guilt.

 

Think of all the land that could have produced food that has now been turned over to Bio Fuels...as you say, the burning down of forests to plant this cash crop.

 

Maybe time to look at cars that you stick a cow in the back and it runs on farts of methane!

I think that this environmental meltdown can be prevented everyone does like Crossy is doing and buy your own solar panels enough so that you can charge your electric car or Tesla pickup. Then put in a solar water heater like I am doing for my my house which doesn't use any electricity at all! We can all stop using pesticides on our crops and use natural methods to kill the weeds in our rice fields so that we stop poisoning ourselves. We stopped using Round Up to kill the weeds around our baby teak trees. Now we pay 2500 baht to some guys in the village to go out and cut with their weed whackers until someone finds a way to make one of these things electric so we don't have to listen to that awful noise. There are a million things we can do and sure they are expensive but guess what! You will save on your electric bill and <deleted> off the utility companies like the Californians have done. Bankrupting a utility company by not buying their product is a great idea. It might make them mad but it will save the human race, maybe.... guess I should have posted this rant in the alternative energy forum!

[ktm jeff]

I thought about the fuel system , but fuel alone wouldnt then make the engine run quiet after 5 minutes. Shell V-Power is about as good as you can get , with less than 10% palm content , by some accounts. While your at the dealers , get them to change the fuel filter. Their diagnostic equipment may show up an issue with the EGR/emission equipment. Bearings and engine/gearbox mounts wont go suddenly quiet after 5 minutes , but good suggestions. Get them to "block" the exhaust end with a rag/bung while the engine is ticking over and have someone very carefully listen around the exhaust manifold by-pass valves/cat  area .

[Formaleins]

Take a listen, see what you reckon (apologies for some of the pops and clicks ) I recorded it yesterday, well actually I forgot to turn the mic on, so I had to let it cool and redo it today. If you listen at the beginning you can hear the thing rattle under load, this disappears after about 4 minutes once the engine has warmed a bit (This thing is slow to reach operating temps. probably at least 10 minutes, but the needle is moving after about 4 and the noise decreases)

you also need to ignore the damn microphone clicks as it rattles around on the camera - it is the metallic sort of growl under acceleration, mainly in 2nd and 3rd gear that is my worry.

Any ideas? Cheers.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Formaleins

[Formaleins]

On 12/15/2020 at 9:43 PM, ktm jeff said:

I thought about the fuel system , but fuel alone wouldnt then make the engine run quiet after 5 minutes. Shell V-Power is about as good as you can get , with less than 10% palm content , by some accounts. While your at the dealers , get them to change the fuel filter. Their diagnostic equipment may show up an issue with the EGR/emission equipment. Bearings and engine/gearbox mounts wont go suddenly quiet after 5 minutes , but good suggestions. Get them to "block" the exhaust end with a rag/bung while the engine is ticking over and have someone very carefully listen around the exhaust manifold by-pass valves/cat  area .

I changed all of the filters, oil, air fuel and cabin about 3000km ago, fuel system had no water and was pretty clean, used all genuine Toyota parts. Have a listen to the audio I uploaded and you can hear the difference between cold and partially warm. Once it gets a bit of heat there all you hear is the turbo whine, the low end clatter disappears.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Formaleins

[Formaleins]

On 12/15/2020 at 9:38 PM, thaisail said:

I think that this environmental meltdown can be prevented everyone does like Crossy is doing and buy your own solar panels enough so that you can charge your electric car or Tesla pickup. Then put in a solar water heater like I am doing for my my house which doesn't use any electricity at all! We can all stop using pesticides on our crops and use natural methods to kill the weeds in our rice fields so that we stop poisoning ourselves. We stopped using Round Up to kill the weeds around our baby teak trees. Now we pay 2500 baht to some guys in the village to go out and cut with their weed whackers until someone finds a way to make one of these things electric so we don't have to listen to that awful noise. There are a million things we can do and sure they are expensive but guess what! You will save on your electric bill and <deleted> off the utility companies like the Californians have done. Bankrupting a utility company by not buying their product is a great idea. It might make them mad but it will save the human race, maybe.... guess I should have posted this rant in the alternative energy forum!

I agree with a lot of what you say, I for one am to blame for being too damn lazy to install solar panels, it is crazy really when you think of the free power we get here from the sun. You could even just use coiled copper pipes to absorb heat to pre heat the water for washing machines or showers. 20 Years of paying EGAT for something I could have saved every month! All of the rewiring, the new boilers...madness really!

[transam]

Toyota 2.5 and 3.0 use a pre-injection to dampen noise/knock, in other words, the fuel system injects a tiny amount of fuel before the big shot, you maybe are hearing a miner "knock" whilst the engine warms up. 

I doubt it is anything to do with fuel as folk can do a few mods to burn used oil from kebab shops with no probs..????

...but, ya never know..

Nothing to do with the bottom end as the noise would get worse as the oil thins....

[ktm jeff]

When you first start the car , the engine seems to seize/stall on the starter motor. Then it fires up. If this was a petrol engine i would suspect the ignition timing to be too advanced. On a diesel - unless its hydro locking due to a weeping head gasket , noticeable by steam from the exhaust upon start up/very slight water consumption - id suspect the diesel injection timing to be out/too advanced. Can Toyota check this. I must admit the noise is very slight and doesnt sound to be impending doom. A diesel injection specialist can phase and calibrate your injectors , and check the pump timing. Use a marker pen on your coolant expansion bottle to keep an eye on the level.

[Formaleins]

On 12/18/2020 at 9:40 AM, transam said:

Toyota 2.5 and 3.0 use a pre-injection to dampen noise/knock, in other words, the fuel system injects a tiny amount of fuel before the big shot, you maybe are hearing a miner "knock" whilst the engine warms up. 

I doubt it is anything to do with fuel as folk can do a few mods to burn used oil from kebab shops with no probs..????

...but, ya never know..

Nothing to do with the bottom end as the noise would get worse as the oil thins....

Cheers, it is probably just me, it just sounds a lot more Tinny than the old EFI.

[Formaleins]

22 hours ago, ktm jeff said:

When you first start the car , the engine seems to seize/stall on the starter motor. Then it fires up. If this was a petrol engine i would suspect the ignition timing to be too advanced. On a diesel - unless its hydro locking due to a weeping head gasket , noticeable by steam from the exhaust upon start up/very slight water consumption - id suspect the diesel injection timing to be out/too advanced. Can Toyota check this. I must admit the noise is very slight and doesnt sound to be impending doom. A diesel injection specialist can phase and calibrate your injectors , and check the pump timing. Use a marker pen on your coolant expansion bottle to keep an eye on the level.

Thanks, but there is nothing from the exhaust at all, no steam not smoke. There is no oil or water consumption, as I said in the previous post, it might just be me and not being used to the different sound this engine makes compared to the old 3.0L EFI, thanks for your info, greatly appreciated from all of you guys.

Maybe I need to give it a good run just to get the confidence in the motor.