Anti-vaxers. Nuts, or not ?

[bestie]

1 minute ago, Surelynot said:

Well I "hope" you don't get hit by a bus whilst your are waiting around to see if the rest of us die.

If your decide to take it it's your free will like mine not to do until I see what will happen with you. If you trust to get something into your body where they have no study at all now, Ok then you my study.  but I don't call you "nuts" for that.  It's your free will. 

[bendejo]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:13 PM, Bluetongue said:

I always thought a vaccine provided immunity from an infection.

 

A flu shot in the US does not prevent you from getting the flu, but supposedly will arrange for it to be not as severe if you do catch one.  Caught a flu a few years ago four months after getting the shot, but it felt very different from the ones I had experienced in others times of my life, when I didn't get the shots.

 

The US has a history of this kind of paranoid stuff, began after WWII.  Not just vaccines but fluoride in the drinking water, among other things.  If you've seen the movie Dr Strangelove you might remember the general who goes mad and blames fluoridation for the destruction of the country -- that really was 
"a thing" at the time, maybe still is.

 

 

 

[polpott]

1 hour ago, bestie said:

If your decide to take it it's your free will like mine not to do until I see what will happen with you. If you trust to get something into your body where they have no study at all now, Ok then you my study.  but I don't call you "nuts" for that.  It's your free will. 

Three stages of clinical trials involving six figures of volunteers plus data analysis and peer reviewing isn't "no study at all".

 

People who are reluctant to have the vaccine are in the same bracket as those who refuse to wear masks, selfish, illogical and just plain nuts.

[Sudarut]

Thank God there are many anti nutters and sane people posting here, so hopefully I can get a non conspiracy theory answer to my question: Do vaccines have a long "shelf life" or do they require some type of preservative? 

[J Town]

5 minutes ago, polpott said:

Three stages of clinical trials involving six figures of volunteers plus data analysis and peer reviewing isn't "no study at all".

 

People who are reluctant to have the vaccine are in the same bracket as those who refuse to wear masks, selfish, illogical and just plain nuts.

No. I wear a mask, stay home unless necessary to go somewhere, practice safe distancing, and will not receive the vaccine until I've seen the actual results throughout the masses. As I previously wrote, all news outlets have described this quick 95% efficacy vaccine as "incredible" or "unbelievable." If a thing is too good to be true . . .

 

Remember: "I'm here from the gubmint and I'm here to help."

[Sudarut]

3 hours ago, J Town said:

No. I wear a mask, stay home unless necessary to go somewhere, practice safe distancing, and will not receive the vaccine until I've seen the actual results throughout the masses. As I previously wrote, all news outlets have described this quick 95% efficacy vaccine as "incredible" or "unbelievable." If a thing is too good to be true . . .

 

Remember: "I'm here from the gubmint and I'm here to help."

What if the vaccine is like crack? Short term smiles followed by long term tears?

[patman30]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

Its quite simple people should be free not to vaccinate. But government should be free to not let people who havent vaccinated enter their countries. Choices have consequences. Many of the anti vax want free travel ect while not wanting to be vaccinated. That is not being pro choice. That is selfish. You either accept to be vaccinated or accept that there will be things you cant do if your not vaccinated.

 

If they would accept that I would have a far better opinion of anti vaxers. 

That is called discrimination (illegal in most countries) and coercion
you might want to read the nuremburg code

and again, you are mis labeling people, and advocating for mandatory vax (just as i stated)
this is a line which should not be crossed
punishing those for not doing as you do is wrong and immoral

maybe i would have a different mindset if "pro mandatory vaxxers" like yourself
lived healthy lives IMO, but your life choices are your life choices
my life choices are mine.

[Sudarut]

6 hours ago, robblok said:

 

 

Its quite simple people should be free not to vaccinate. But government should be free to not let people who havent vaccinated enter their countries. Choices have consequences. Many of the anti vax want free travel ect while not wanting to be vaccinated. That is not being pro choice. That is selfish. You either accept to be vaccinated or accept that there will be things you cant do if your not vaccinated.

 

If they would accept that I would have a far better opinion of anti vaxers. 

It's a slippery slope, for example. Do you trust your Government?  Your talking about forcing people to receive an injection just so they can enjoy freedoms that their Fathers, Mothers and Grandparents most likely sacrificed much for.  This goes beyond a yellow star on your jacket.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Sudarut

[robblok]

Just now, Sudarut said:

It's a slippery slope, for example. Do you trust your Government?  Your talking about forcing people to receive an injection just so they can enjoy freedoms that their Fathers, Mothers and Grandmothers most likely sacrificed much for.  This goes beyond a yellow star on your jacket.

I am sure the Jews that died in those camps would have chosen to be vaccinated. Jews had no choice you can choose to be vaccinated. Its actually a big shame that you even make that comparison. But it shows you got a weak case why else bring WW2 in it.

 

Its not my government that would force me to vaccinate, it would be the government from countries you visit. You don't have much rights there. I do wonder if you even thought it through what you were posting. Its not your own government that will restrict you but other governments and that is their good right.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, patman30 said:

That is called discrimination (illegal in most countries) and coercion
you might want to read the nuremburg code

and again, you are mis labeling people, and advocating for mandatory vax (just as i stated)
this is a line which should not be crossed
punishing those for not doing as you do is wrong and immoral

maybe i would have a different mindset if "pro mandatory vaxxers" like yourself
lived healthy lives IMO, but your life choices are your life choices
my life choices are mine.

 

 

There is nothing against the law of all of this countries can set rules to entry. Vaccination against certain things has long been done

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel

 

This is basic knowledge come on. 

 

[Sudarut]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

No wonder you are an anti vaxer.

I'm not an anti vaxer, I could care less how many vaccines you pump into yourself and your children.

Edited December 22, 2020 by onthedarkside
personal comment removed

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 hours ago, patman30 said:

why bold credible as if to imply my words are not true, just because they do not satisfy your beliefs ?
GOOGLE is your friend.

is the CDC still considered credible on here ?

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2020-12/slides-12-19/05-COVID-CLARK.pdf

 

 

A couple of things about that chart and info:

 

1. It's pertaining to UK vaccine administrations, not anything from the U.S., even though the document is a U.S. CDC one.

 

2. Whenever you have adverse impacts like those reported, it's never certain whether whatever happened is specifically caused by the vaccine or other issues.

 

3. From everything I've read on the issue, most of the CV vaccine adverse reactions that have occurred have been very temporary, lasting maybe a day or two before they disappeared -- fatigue, soreness/aches, nausea, etc etc. Nothing much in the way of lasting symptoms.

 

Though after the initial issues with adverse anaphalactic reactions, I believe the U.S. and the U.K. did both caution against giving the vaccine to those with a history of those kinds of reactions.

 

 

[patman30]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

There is nothing against the law of all of this countries can set rules to entry. Vaccination against certain things has long been done

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel

 

 

This is basic knowledge come on. 

 

you followed " just that those who don't should live with the consequences of it. Like higher insurance costs, no travel" with "ect." (etc.)
possible restrictions stated by gov's have included entranace to venues etc.
which is what was assumed you meant by "ect"

dont forget the tin foil hatters as you call them
said in March

this would not end with 2 weeks to flatten the curve
this would lead to Covid passports and mandatory vax
this would destroy economies and livelyhoods

 

those pesky tin foil hatters with their crystal balls


 

[Scott]

Post with unusually small font has been reported and removed.   Please make sure that if you take a screenshot it is credited to the original source and formats correctly.  

 

[patman30]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

A couple of things about that chart and info:

 

1. It's pertaining to UK vaccine administrations, not anything from the U.S., even though the document is a U.S. CDC one.

 

2. Whenever you have adverse impacts like those reported, it's never certain whether whatever happened is specifically caused by the vaccine or other issues.

 

3. From everything I've read on the issue, most of the adverse reactions that have occurred have been very temporary, lasting maybe a day or two before they disappeared -- fatigue, soreness/aches, nausea, etc etc. Nothing much in the way of lasting symptoms.

 

1. i never stated which country just figures????
2. i only used CDC figures that state they had a "Health Impact Event" from the vaccine (nothing to dispute)
3. short term reactions, trials are still ongoing till end 2022, long term effects and damage are completely unknown, and these people would have also more likely remained symptom free if not taking it????‍♂️

[tgw]

I would like to know how many anti-vaxxers are also anti-lockdown and anti-mask

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, patman30 said:

you followed " just that those who don't should live with the consequences of it. Like higher insurance costs, no travel" with "ect." (etc.)
possible restrictions stated by gov's have included entranace to venues etc.
which is what was assumed you meant by "ect"

dont forget the tin foil hatters as you call them
said in March

this would not end with 2 weeks to flatten the curve
this would lead to Covid passports and mandatory vax
this would destroy economies and livelyhoods
those pesky tin foil hatters with their crystal balls


 

Not sure why you think that only tinfoil hatters could see that a pandemic destroys economies. I mean to claim credit for that how low can you sink. 

 

In Europe there is no mandatory vaxination will never get through no government dares to make those rules, it wont happen in the US either. It will just mean that certain countries (Thailand perhaps they mentioned they would) will require you a vaccination before you can enter. That is not the same as a mandatory vax because you only need it if you want to get into the country. Its a choice nothing more.

 

Mandatory countrywide vaccinations wont happen, guess your crystal ball did not work good.

[tgw]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

Not sure why you think that only tinfoil hatters could see that a pandemic destroys economies. I mean to claim credit for that how low can you sink. 

 

In Europe there is no mandatory vaxination will never get through no government dares to make those rules, it wont happen in the US either. It will just mean that certain countries (Thailand perhaps they mentioned they would) will require you a vaccination before you can enter. That is not the same as a mandatory vax because you only need it if you want to get into the country. Its a choice nothing more.

 

Mandatory countrywide vaccinations wont happen, guess your crystal ball did not work good.

 

seems you aren't properly informed, there are 11 mandatory vaccinations in France, for example.

[Sudarut]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

What is a shame is the lack of a proper response to my post, I know you cant because what I am saying is legally correct that other governments can require vaccination. It will never be your own country that forces you. Can't be done in Europe. 

 

It will be the countries you want to visit. You lack knowledge and simple reasoning. No wonder you are an anti vaxer.

 

Then you come up with some random WW2 fact that again has nothing to do with what you posted. 

 

 

Why do you think that mandatory vaccination can't be done in Europe?

Edited December 22, 2020 by onthedarkside
off topic trolling comment removed

[patman30]

4 minutes ago, robblok said:

Mandatory countrywide vaccinations wont happen

i know Denmark overturned their ruling after protests
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/denmarks-flirtation-with-mandatory-vaccination
lets see how Brazil will do now the courts have ruled it can be
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/18/brazils-supreme-court-rules-covid-vaccine-can-mandatory/
the coercion is just as bad, also prophecised by the tin foil hatters
i should have been more specific for you and there is still time
 

[robblok]

36 minutes ago, Sudarut said:

 

Why do you think that mandatory vaccination can't be done in Europe?

 

 

Why I think that mandatory vaccination can't be done is because there is too much freedom. The people won't go for it just wont happen. In my country we have religious people who don't vaccinate and are always at the center of new outbreaks of infectious diseases. 

 

In my country vaccinations are not mandatory. The government can't force you. (Netherlands). Government in the Netherlands already said they won't make it mandatory. I doubt its different in other countries.

Edited December 22, 2020 by onthedarkside
quote of hidden comment removed

[Joinaman]

curious

around 500 people die each week on the roads, and nobody bothers or cares, either about the dead or about the high volume of hospital patients

Yet every Thai and an awful lot of ex pats are running scared from something that would probably never bother them , and have more chance of dying or getting badly injured driving to the shops than to catch this virus, 

[onthedarkside]

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[polpott]

47 minutes ago, Joinaman said:

curious

around 500 people die each week on the roads, and nobody bothers or cares, either about the dead or about the high volume of hospital patients

Yet every Thai and an awful lot of ex pats are running scared from something that would probably never bother them , and have more chance of dying or getting badly injured driving to the shops than to catch this virus, 

Maybe they've watched the world news. US 320k dead. UK 67k dead and counting, a smaller population than Thailand with 3 times the annual morbidity from Covid than deaths on Thailands roads. There but for the grace of God go we......yet.

[VBF]

1 hour ago, tgw said:

I would like to know how many anti-vaxxers are also anti-lockdown and anti-mask

I'll stand up and be counted here (in UK):

 

PRO Vax - the sooner I get invited, the better!

ANTI Lockdown - do far more harm than good, IMO and however you cut it, not really enforceable.

MASKS - PRO in crowded areas or on public transport, otherwise ANTI.

[robblok]

I think anti vaxers are in general a bit uneducated or strange. 

 

If you look back at the history of vaccination and the lives that have been saved its enormous. How can something that saves so many be bad. 

 

Also when the vaccination levels got less in the Netherlands combined with immigration previous eradicated diseases came back. That shows that high levels of vaccination are needed and that we can't let our guard down.

 

Some vaccinations like the one against cervical cancer for woman are linked to dangers. As long as the dangers are understood I think it is a parents choice. I do hate the anti vaxers with their misinformation campaign. You can see it even in this topic. Backing a guy up that has been convicted of making up research (falsifying having a bias) for anti vax. Its been clearly shown the guy was a fraud but you still get mentions of  him as a hero.

 

I do think vaccinations should be free choice. Most of Europe this is the case (not in Italy France and Greece and some Eastern European countries. However people who don't take a covid vaccine should understand that they might not be let into certain countries.

 

I see them then moaning in this topic about discrimination, but not letting unvaccinated people into countries has been going on for years and its perfectly legal. No Neurenburg or rights of humans apply. Still people bring it up

 

People seem to forget its a choice, discrimination is never a choice. You cannot change your religion or color of your skin you can take an vaccination. Its freedom of choice and living with the results of that choice.

 

Seem anti vaxers want to not take it but dont accept that other countries then have the freedom to decide not to let them in.

[tifino]

What's today's vaxx negative reaction victim count up to in your vicinities now as we speak?

Facts are better to follow than here say 

[sezze]

10 hours ago, VBF said:

I'll stand up and be counted here (in UK):

 

PRO Vax - the sooner I get invited, the better!

ANTI Lockdown - do far more harm than good, IMO and however you cut it, not really enforceable.

MASKS - PRO in crowded areas or on public transport, otherwise ANTI.

everybody is anti lockdown : we want it because we want to stop the virus . Is it difficult to do , yes and no , depending how much force a government is willing to use . Does it work , sure , if inforced strong enough , plenty of countries as example where you can see the date of lockdown and the curve going down 1-2 weeks later .

masks : nobody likes masks . I work chemical industry and thinking ohh gas bottles and chemical suit ... nice , no not at all . Doctors and nurses will also not say oohh nice . They do it because it is needed . Because it is a proven technique . It works to bring infections down , it does not make you feel better .

But think of it the other way , if infections go up and up , what do you think will happen ? Nothing ? but they go up more ... remember R value in March had numbers like 4 . Meaning every single person infects 4 others . So 1 -5 -20- 80- 160 - 700- 2800- ( i rounded the figures ... ) . Not following rules does not make your life easier in any way . Today , yes prob ... in the longer run , not at all . Like said before , nobody cares there is a asymptomatic infection . But some people ( 10%? ) are symptomatic and 10% of them end up in hospital . The hospital , most not stay for 1 day , they stay 1w-3w or much longer . Some might die but those aren't the issue . Their numbers are hard but do not mean anything . It is the hospital which is full , it is the nurses and doctors who cannot take care of everybody the way they should . It is long time aftercare which is needed . ...

[Peter Denis]

10 hours ago, VBF said:

I'll stand up and be counted here (in UK):

 

PRO Vax - the sooner I get invited, the better!

ANTI Lockdown - do far more harm than good, IMO and however you cut it, not really enforceable.

MASKS - PRO in crowded areas or on public transport, otherwise ANTI.

Indeed, depending on your stance re the various measures that are enforced to address the covid-19 issue, you can be Pro-Measure, Anti-Measure or Pro-Choice.

- Re VAX > I am neither Pro nor Anti-Vax, but am definitely Pro-Choice allowing me to decide whether I take it or not (I will most certainly do not), but have no problem that other people opt to take it (I will do an effort to inform them about risks, but it is their body - their decision);

- ANTI Lock-down > Except in very specific cases and for very specific areas where it is obvious that authorities will not be able to cope with the amount of new real infections with symptoms (not an increase in 'cases' due to a dodgy PCR-test).  But absolutely NO province or nation-wide lock-down, as it is already proven from many studies by now that lock-downs do much more harm than good and it is telltale of authorities at their wits end to impose them.

- Re MASKS > Pro-choice allowing me to decide whether to wear one outdoors.  I have read enough about the subject to question their usefulness indoors, but I am not a fanatic and will wear one indoors when it is policy at that place (no need or desire to heighten the stress-level of those that believe in masking by provoking them and me not wearing them when it is policy).

[Peter Denis]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I think anti vaxers are in general a bit uneducated or strange. 

 

If you look back at the history of vaccination and the lives that have been saved its enormous. How can something that saves so many be bad. 

 

Also when the vaccination levels got less in the Netherlands combined with immigration previous eradicated diseases came back. That shows that high levels of vaccination are needed and that we can't let our guard down.

 

Some vaccinations like the one against cervical cancer for woman are linked to dangers. As long as the dangers are understood I think it is a parents choice. I do hate the anti vaxers with their misinformation campaign. You can see it even in this topic. Backing a guy up that has been convicted of making up research (falsifying having a bias) for anti vax. Its been clearly shown the guy was a fraud but you still get mentions of  him as a hero.

 

I do think vaccinations should be free choice. Most of Europe this is the case (not in Italy France and Greece and some Eastern European countries. However people who don't take a covid vaccine should understand that they might not be let into certain countries.

 

I see them then moaning in this topic about discrimination, but not letting unvaccinated people into countries has been going on for years and its perfectly legal. No Neurenburg or rights of humans apply. Still people bring it up

 

People seem to forget its a choice, discrimination is never a choice. You cannot change your religion or color of your skin you can take an vaccination. Its freedom of choice and living with the results of that choice.

 

Seem anti vaxers want to not take it but dont accept that other countries then have the freedom to decide not to let them in.

I thought we agreed to let the subject of mandatory covid-19 vaccination rest until there is clear evidence that such vaccination prevents the vaccinated one from still being infectuous and transmitting the virus to others. 

To your credit you stated that if that is the case then there would be no reason for making such vaccination mandatory and also forcing it on those that do not opt for it.  And that is the Pro-choice many are advocating, and are then branded as  loony anti-vaxxers who 'are in general a bit uneducated or strange'.  I resent and object to the term 'anti-vaxxer' as it implies that vaccinations should be forbidden, the same intolerant mindset as the pro-vaxxers who want to enforce it on everybody.