UK state pension: Canada and Australia condemn the UK's failure to protect overseas payments

[jesimps]

6 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

I was raised to not rely on government welfare or charity. My dad would disown me if I had ever got on the dole or pension. Dole bludgers and pensioners are always complaining that their handouts are not enough in Australia.

They should get a job and save and fund their own retirement if they think they are not being given enough. Leaners  complaining the lifters are not giving them enough. 

 

 

Great attitude if you aren't forced to contribute all your life by NI contributions and income tax so that the couch potatoes and feckless single mums having babies all over the place are supported. I feel no guilt about receiving my meagre state pension, I've paid for it. Mine being frozen at the rate it was in 2007 while said bludgers are getting their annual increases goes against the grain somewhat. I'm glad some other countries are making a stink about it.

[BusyB]

6 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

I was raised to not rely on government welfare or charity. My dad would disown me if I had ever got on the dole or pension. Dole bludgers and pensioners are always complaining that their handouts are not enough in Australia.

They should get a job and save and fund their own retirement if they think they are not being given enough. Leaners  complaining the lifters are not giving them enough. 

 

 

 

Pensions are not handouts - they are deferred earnings. Every penny paid for with blood sweat and tears. In my case over 50 years. How rude you are. Yet how superior you think you are. 

[billd766]

32 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

This is true. For those among us who are not from the UK and especially those that think the UK pension is a gift from the government to the elderly who didn't make provision for their retirement, let me clarify. It is an insurance scheme run by the government into which all working people pay a percentage of their income. On reaching retirement age pensioners get some of that back not because they are poor or sick or disabled, but because it is what they have payed for over the last thirty or forty years. I, and I'm sure other UK pensioners, feel let down by successive UK governments because we are not paid our index linked increases the same as other UK citizens who reside in the UK.

I paid in for 44 years and my state pension has been frozen since 2009.

Edited December 26, 2020 by billd766
Bad spelling

[Jonnapat]

6 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

I was raised to not rely on government welfare or charity. My dad would disown me if I had ever got on the dole or pension. Dole bludgers and pensioners are always complaining that their handouts are not enough in Australia.

They should get a job and save and fund their own retirement if they think they are not being given enough. Leaners  complaining the lifters are not giving them enough. 

 

 

We paid for our pensions through national insurance contributions all are working lives so why should we living in Thailand be an exception. No one is asking for charity, just parity with everyone else. 

[ThaiFelix]

7 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

Well I dunno about others I just ended up looking out for myself and was truculent if I had to be at any given time..

 

I made plans for retirement when I was 40 years old as I recall then people on a govt pension just scraped through in the UK, so I arranged to pay into a private pension..

 

I was born and bred in England and worked for 41 years and lived through the ups & downs and tough times I just got on with it..

 

When Maggie was PM that's I made my wealth she also she did things to split my private pension and help it increase in value, haven't got a clue what but it worked. 

 

As for ended up in Thailand I decided that over 20 years ago and came with savings, for the last 8 years I've been on a UK govt pension I don't need to touch any of my 2 small private pensions only if needed.

 

I really don't understand why people go on about inflation in Thailand,  in comparison to living in the UK it can only be considered as a joke.

 

Finally I am treated well as a whole in Thailand it's a pity UK didn't have same immigration rules if you were to ask me.

As for the UK couldn't care less about their pensioners and are a the disgrace of the western world I totally agree and they will carry on doing so, that's why I did something about it.

Happy New Year. ????

 

 

 

 

You did right making your own plans......DONT trust your government!  I always thought I would be right for the pension from Australia.  I did my 35 years minimum, helped to build my country, paid my taxes and thought I was safe.  I did make some contingency plans by putting my money into real estate.  I moved to Thailand after a back injury knowing I wouldnt get work in Oz with my back condition and I could live cheaply here.  I should have gone for a disability allowance which I regret now.  Anyhow the next thing I know the government changed the law and wont pay my pension because I have lived away for so long.  The real estate situation in my state went down the drain, I sold one of my properties and the tax department hit me real hard.  I appealed (after having to pay) but all I get after 9 months is "we are still progessing with your appeal"!   I am very disappointed with my country.

 

Dont trust your government!

[Dave0206]

3 hours ago, peterpop said:

Maybe Thai Visa with their connections could suggest to the Thai Government that British pensioners in Thailand would contribute more to the economy if their pensions were not frozen.  I am not holding my breath.

Of course another way to look at it is the old age pensioners that have left the. Uk to live in Thailand have taken a great burden off the national health service as we age we are in general more dependent on the medical profession to help us in our later years.

Or care homes with assisted living so the few pennies the government save by depriving the selected pensioners of the 2% usual increase per year that is given to everyone else is petty to say the least.

As many have said more eloquently than I can this is not charity this is our own money paid into a national pot only when it comes to getting some back rules for us are rather biased.

Imagine having you,re private pension telling you of course you paid in but we prefer to reduce you’re money because you have chosen to live abroad 

[ThaiFelix]

12 minutes ago, Dave0206 said:

Of course another way to look at it is the old age pensioners that have left the. Uk to live in Thailand have taken a great burden off the national health service as we age we are in general more dependent on the medical profession to help us in our later years.

Or care homes with assisted living so the few pennies the government save by depriving the selected pensioners of the 2% usual increase per year that is given to everyone else is petty to say the least.

As many have said more eloquently than I can this is not charity this is our own money paid into a national pot only when it comes to getting some back rules for us are rather biased.

Imagine having you,re private pension telling you of course you paid in but we prefer to reduce you’re money because you have chosen to live abroad 

Exactly!  Because I live abroad I am considered a non-resident for tax purposes.  This rule was brought in to tax overseas investors in Oz but someone decided to throw the long term expats into it as well.  I therefore pay more tax as well as losing my consesions...for what?  I dont use any services, I'm not eligible for medicare....the govt is saving heaps already by me living abroad??  And then deny me a pension?

[Natai Beach]

1 hour ago, Jonnapat said:

We paid for our pensions through national insurance contributions all are working lives so why should we living in Thailand be an exception. No one is asking for charity, just parity with everyone else. 

I can’t remember paying any “national insurance contributions”. I was talking about in Australia.
 

The people who paid the most tax and saved and invested for their future don’t  get a pension in Australia. Get nothing for their hard work and saving. And get taxed on their self generated income ironically to pay for.....
 

The people who sat on the dole, or wasted all their money on booze, ciggies and pokies and DIDNT save or invest get a government hand out pension. Tax free. And all sorts of other perks, discounts on electricity, rent assistance, free medical etc that the lifters don’t receive. 
 

That is how it is in Australia. The Robbing Hood system.
 

 

[maxcorrigan]

And does'nt it seems strange that these so called reciprocal agreements with a few  countries in the world has never been taken up by any other countries in the seventy odd years this frozen UK pension theft has been running!

[hansnl]

12 hours ago, Tanlic said:

BUT why the hell should you have to make such plans? If you worked all your days, paid your stamps, then you are as entitled as the guy living in Hackney.....Are you British or not?

 

49th highest paid pension in the world Brits are from the 6th richest country on the planet

 

There are probably countries where less is required to live there........A person on a full pension can afford to stay there of it, in the sun, for health reasons. In 20 years he/she will barely afford a postage stamp because of inflation.

 

No doubt living in Thailand you are treated like  <deleted>....in the UK if your pension is due on Xmas day they get paid early around the 23rd but if you live in Thailand........its a  big <deleted> and you'll probably get it around the 28th or 29th and too bad if it was going to pay for your 80 year old Mother''s xmas lunch.

 

The UK couldn't care less about their pensioners and are a the disgrace of the western world

 

The worst thing is the public accept it in the USA millions take to the streets for less.......

Pensioners are third rate citizens in most western countries, and when they go to live abroad........

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, ThaiFelix said:

 I am very disappointed with my country.

 

Dont trust your government!

That's so sad, I hope you will be OK.

Hope 2021 is a good year for you.

[Grundy1927]

Due to the frozen pension the uk has no idea how many pensioners are overseas with many thousands just recieving there winter fuel payment which no doubt will help with the aircon bill

[wavodavo]

Australia has a different Pension system to the U.K. Everyone who meets the criteria gets a Pension automaticly and you dont have to pay into any government  fund.Yes you pay your taxes all your working life but they brought in compulsory superanuation contributions from your employer which is paid into your own private account into which you can add your own money.The idea of this according to the gov is that you will live off your own money when you retire and you wont need their pension saving them $$$$$ They insist that in Australia a Pension is a  a priviledge not a right .If you dont  have enough in your fund they will supplement your income so you dont go hungry. 

[wavodavo]

17 hours ago, Lacessit said:

There's a bit of hypocrisy going on with the Australian complaint about UK pensions. When the Australian government paid out the COVID stimulus cheques to pensioners, I did not get one. AFAIK no-one deemed to be living overseas did.

I would say that the reason you didnt get your cheque was that the whole idea was to stimulate the economy by spending the money Australia so if you are living Thailand you cant do this. Does that sound fair ??

[Farang99]

On 12/17/2020 at 10:52 PM, dabhand said:

Now, if the noted condemnation were to manifest itself during trade negotiations, that could possibly have an impact. But, given the past intransigence on the subject by HMG, a more likely response would be 'we are looking into the matter'!!

Though the injustice is obvious - not only do we not receive annual increments but we are at no cost to the UK health and social services, it would be financial ruin to the UK to try and remedy the situation - after all think of all the elderly British pensioners here and multiply that by the increment due. The UK economy is in sufficient trouble without seeking more.

A few years ago there was an attempt to pursue this that got as far as the House of Lords before being rejected

[brianthainess]

13 hours ago, ThaiFelix said:

I appealed (after having to pay) but all I get after 9 months is "we are still progessing with your appeal"! 

This happened to my ex in OZ she was stung by a tax bill, she had to pay it, she was not even in the country when said earnings were taxed, as proved by her passport. To cut a long story short, she understood how these offices worked, she got to talk to the woman's superior  she dealt with got her name and rang her nearly every day, so her file would come to the top, they paid money back after a couple of weeks, IMO to stop the continued annoying phone calls inquiring on the progress. 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

19 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

Yes they are leaners also. 
All leaning on other people like me to pay their way. 

Where do you think Centrelink gets their money from? 
A. Me 

Steady on guys. As a public servant myself believe me we work for our money. The money I bring in, or save the Commonwealth, is a large multiple of what my pay is. Other workers contribute to the economy directly but I feel good about the contribution many public servants make to the economy and to a fair Australia. 

The superannuation is generous if you joined before 2003  as it is a defined benefit but for public servants after that it's pretty much normal superannuation i.e. just based on shares or whatever. I did join before 2003 thankfully. 

By all means you can argue taxes are a bit high but I am sure you enjoy or have enjoyed all the infrastructure, national parks, hospitals  etc that taxes have paid for. 

 

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

12 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

I can’t remember paying any “national insurance contributions”. I was talking about in Australia.
 

The people who paid the most tax and saved and invested for their future don’t  get a pension in Australia. Get nothing for their hard work and saving. And get taxed on their self generated income ironically to pay for.....
 

The people who sat on the dole, or wasted all their money on booze, ciggies and pokies and DIDNT save or invest get a government hand out pension. Tax free. And all sorts of other perks, discounts on electricity, rent assistance, free medical etc that the lifters don’t receive. 
 

That is how it is in Australia. The Robbing Hood system.
 

 

I know where you are coming from but what is the alternative to this. You could not argue the average age pensioner on a full pension is living it large and the pension age is now 67. Some are as you describe but many worked hard in average paid jobs bringing up families. Some hit difficult times for a range of reasons. The current pensioners lived in a time when superannuation was not paid for much of their career. It's easy to complain but harder to find a better outcome.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Fat is a type of crazy

[Natai Beach]

11 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I know where you are coming from but what is the alternative to this. You could not argue the average age pensioner on a full pension is living it large and the pension age is now 67. Some are as you describe but many worked hard in average paid jobs bringing up families. Some hit difficult times for a range of reasons. The current pensioners lived in a time when superannuation was not paid for much of their career. It's easy to complain but harder to find a better outcome.

compulsory super is a good idea and the answer. Rewards those who worked hard and probably paid a lot of tax.

 

My grandmother, who was widowed at 43 and brought up 3 kids under 11 solo in the 1950s and paid into super all her life, went without. Then was refused a pension. 
 

I realize i have to pay for these self entitled leaners, but it is annoying to hear their ungrateful whingeing that I am not giving them enough. 

[maxcorrigan]

5 hours ago, Grundy1927 said:

Due to the frozen pension the uk has no idea how many pensioners are overseas with many thousands just recieving there winter fuel payment which no doubt will help with the aircon bill

Can you point out to me then where i can apply for these winter fuel payments in Thailand as i never received a penny in the years i have lived here on my frozen pension, this would help out financially as i'm sure others would agree and apply for, thanks for the news (sarc.)

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, keith101 said:

I dont think Thailand has agreements with any country but could be wrong i know they dont with the US and Australia .

That should be irrelevant. If a UK national living abroad can be deemed as "resident" and have to pay income tax then that "residency" should apply in all matters.

[Natai Beach]

27 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

By all means you can argue taxes are a bit high but I am sure you enjoy or have enjoyed all the infrastructure, national parks, hospitals  etc that taxes have paid for. 

Totally agree, the people claiming pension welfare ignore the benefits of all that and that they are entitled to all of the measly tax they paid and it should be paid back to them as a pension.
People on the dole have the same attitude 

[Saltire]

OK so I left the UK in 2012 and my UK pension will start in Feb 2021.

 

Will I get the 2021 rate which will then be frozen or will I get the going rate at the time I left the UK?

 

I have almost enough years of paying NI to qualify for close to a full pension, and the official estimate from the DWP looks about right, but not sure what I will actually get till they write to me.

 

 

 

[Scott]

Stay on topic, please.  It's not about UK pensions.  

 

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, Jonnapat said:

We paid for our pensions through national insurance contributions all are working lives so why should we living in Thailand be an exception. No one is asking for charity, just parity with everyone else. 

Although I agree with the sentiment, that is not strictly true.

The contributions that you and I paid were paid out immediately to the pensioners of the day, unlike a private pension there is no fund to draw upon. The agreement, although never provided by the government was that by paying the pensioners at the time, workers of the future would pay your pension when it was due.

Unfortunately they grossly miscalculated on how things would change and there are insufficient contributions from the current workforce to meet the state pension liability. In recent years about 12% of income tax revenue has been used to meet the shortfall between NI contributions and state pension payments.

For those of us that pay income tax it means we are partially funding our own frozen pensions, effectively legalised fraud.

Over the past years the government has tried to address the shortfall problem with the most significant changes coming in 2016. Those reforms drastically reduced future pensions for everyone with the intention of trying to get people to make their own provision for old age.

The government can find money for any problem that arises as long as it is not for state pensions, after all that would be seen as petty cash in their retirement.

[dabhand]

3 hours ago, Farang99 said:

Though the injustice is obvious - not only do we not receive annual increments but we are at no cost to the UK health and social services, it would be financial ruin to the UK to try and remedy the situation - after all think of all the elderly British pensioners here and multiply that by the increment due. The UK economy is in sufficient trouble without seeking more.

A few years ago there was an attempt to pursue this that got as far as the House of Lords before being rejected

 

There was an interesting response to a FOI request of a couple of years back concerning the current surplus on the National Insurance Fund (NIF). This is the fund from which pensions are paid, being topped up by current NI contributions.

The balance at the end of the 2017-18 tax year was in excess of 24billion, an increase of 2.2billion over the previous year. I believe the cost of upgrading the frozen pensions has been calculated at approx 600m/year if fully up-rated, or in the region of 50m if only upgraded from the current frozen pension rate. 

Yes, the UK currently has serious budget issues but does that justify their long standing 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' policy?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/777605/FOI2018-22809_-_pdf_for_disclosure_log.pdf

[treetops]

19 hours ago, Chris.B said:

The UK State pension is not a benefit it is an entitlement.

 

Rightly or wrongly, it is classed in legislation as a benefit.

 

 

18 hours ago, Muhendis said:

It is an insurance scheme run by the government into which all working people pay a percentage of their income. On reaching retirement age pensioners get some of that back not because they are poor or sick or disabled, but because it is what they have payed for over the last thirty or forty years.

 

That is not how the UK State Pension is funded and current pensioners are being paid by current contributors.  When they were working, these current pensioners contributed for those drawing their pension at that time.

[dabhand]

2 hours ago, Saltire said:

OK so I left the UK in 2012 and my UK pension will start in Feb 2021.

 

Will I get the 2021 rate which will then be frozen or will I get the going rate at the time I left the UK?

 

I have almost enough years of paying NI to qualify for close to a full pension, and the official estimate from the DWP looks about right, but not sure what I will actually get till they write to me.

 

Luckily the UK state pension rate is based on when you first start being paid, not when you left the UK. I say luckily as I left the UK in 1979 and reached pension age in 2018 and was paid the rate as at that date, a rate that was then frozen. 

[Saltire]

4 minutes ago, dabhand said:

Luckily the UK state pension rate is based on when you first start being paid, not when you left the UK. I say luckily as I left the UK in 1979 and reached pension age in 2018 and was paid the rate as at that date, a rate that was then frozen. 

Excellent, just what I was hoping to hear. Thanks.

[Chris.B]

3 hours ago, Scott said:

Stay on topic, please.  It's not about UK pensions.  

 

Yes it is.