​​​​​​​Thai tourism industry will never be allowed to recover to pre-COVID levels

[KhunFred]

The Thai government has been doing whatever it could to decimate tourism and expat activity for almost five years, so none of this should be surprising.

[spidermike007]

17 hours ago, newnative said:on 12/21/2020 at 7:44 AM,  exparte said: 

on 12/21/2020 at 7:44 AM,  exparte said: 

Thailand’s tourist industry was suffering before COVID. 

 

No, it wasn't.  

Oh yes it was. Everyone I talked with who managed hotels, ran guest houses, had restaurants, gift shops, massage shops, travel agencies, or bars, said the same thing. The industry had been in decline for a decade. Sure, the numbers were up. But the quality of tourists was way, way down. Thailand is reduced to attracting lower to middle income Chinese and Indian tourists these days, for the bulk of their visitors. For a done good reasons. 

 

Quantity over quality is never a good thing, unless you are selling one dollar items at a swap meet. It just lowers the quality of the experience for all.

Edited December 22, 2020 by spidermike007

[Jeffr2]

9 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Oh yes it was. Everyone I talked with who managed hotels, ran guest houses, had restaurants, gift shops, massage shops, travel agencies, or bars, said the same thing. The industry had been in decline for a decade. Sure, the numbers were up. But the quality of tourists was way, way down. Thailand is reduced to attracting lower to middle income Chinese and Indian tourists these days, for the bulk of their visitors. For a done good reasons. 

 

Quantity over quality is never a good thing, unless you are selling one dollar items at a swap meet. It just lowers the quality of the experience for all.

I think they were also suffering from an increase in prices, strong Baht, coup, and way too many hotels.  IHMO.

[John Drake]

13 hours ago, aussienam said:

We have relied on a bully regime like stupid puppets, instead of being self reliant and having our own steel manufacturing industries, etc.  

Thailand is just doing the same sort of housekeeping now in respect to their over reliance on certain industries. 

 

Do you think Thailand will be more or less reliant on China post-Covid?

[spidermike007]

9 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I think they were also suffering from an increase in prices, strong Baht, coup, and way too many hotels.  IHMO.

 

Over development is an issue. I remember when I lived on Samui, one woman opened 14 fancy massage shops, within a three block radius on the beach road. It diminished the entire trade for nearly every other shop in Lamai. Nobody knows what she was thinking. Within two years, half of her shops had closed. Now, only one or two remain. When I moved there over 15 years ago, there were perhaps 15 massage shops in Lamai. At it's peak, before more than half closed due to Covid, and the tourism shutdown, there were over 70. Same goes for hotels. It was way overbuilt. Same applies to villas, many of which were built on spec, for resale. When they could not be sold, they were rented, and it brought down the entire market.

 

Remember when Thailand used to get alot of well heeled Western tourists? They brought real money into the country, and in exchange, were treated with utter and complete disregard, scammed, disrespected, and abused. The issues pertaining to the air, the environment, the road safety, the corrupt cops, the scammers, and others, were never addressed. Eventually, most said no more. Thailand thought the country was something very special, the center or the known universe, and that nobody would ever say no, or find alternative places to visit. The fact is that there are countless other spots, many in this region, that offer better service, more expertise in food and beverage (especially wine service and selection at fair prices, which rich tourists demand), reasonable import duties to sustain a luxury goods market, better training, and far better English skills.
 
Thailand simply lost sight of the big picture, and had very little vision, with regard to big spending tourists, who need to be catered to, instead of scorned.

So, what happened? The Western tourists started to decline in number, and the genius minds at the TAT decided it was time to "lure" the Chinese and Indians. They came. They came in droves. However, very few of the wealthy ones came, for so many good reasons. The ones who did come, they did not spend much money. Hotels, restaurants, gift shops, jewelers, galleries, spas, massage shops, bars, and countless other businesses suffered, from this extreme myopia, on the part of the officials in charge of tourism.
 
Oh well. Can't say they were not warned. Zero baht tourists are the vast majority who were visiting Thailand, prior to Covid. Sure, they spend some money in restaurants, at Tesco, and in 7/11. But, that is about it, for most of the super low budget Chinese and Indian tourists.

Edited December 22, 2020 by spidermike007

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Remember when Thailand used to get alot of well heeled Western tourists? They brought real money into the country, and in exchange, were treated with utter and complete disregard, scammed, disrespected, and abused. The issues pertaining to the air, the environment, the road safety, the corrupt cops, the scammers, and others, were never addressed. Eventually, most said no more. Thailand thought the country was something very special, the center or the known universe, and that nobody would ever say no, or find alternative places to visit. The fact is that there are countless other spots, many in this region, that offer better service, more expertise in food and beverage (especially wine service and selection at fair prices, which rich tourists demand), reasonable import duties to sustain a luxury goods market, better training, and far better English skills.
 
Thailand simply lost sight of the big picture, and had very little vision, with regard to big spending tourists, who need to be catered to, instead of scorned.

So, what happened? The Western tourists started to decline in number, and the genius minds at the TAT decided it was time to "lure" the Chinese and Indians. They came. They came in droves. However, very few of the wealthy ones came, for so many good reasons. The ones who did come, they did not spend much money. Hotels, restaurants, gift shops, jewelers, galleries, spas, massage shops, bars, and countless other businesses suffered, from this extreme myopia, on the part of the officials in charge of tourism.
 
Oh well. Can't say they were not warned. Zero baht tourists are the vast majority who were visiting Thailand, prior to Covid. Sure, they spend some money in restaurants, at Tesco, and in 7/11. But, that is about it, for most of the super low budget Chinese and Indian tourists.

Well put, especially this one:

Quote

They brought real money into the country, and in exchange, were treated with utter and complete disregard, scammed, disrespected, and abused. The issues pertaining to the air, the environment, the road safety, the corrupt cops, the scammers, and others, were never addressed. Eventually, most said no more.

 

[ftpjtm]

21 hours ago, katatonic said:

Should have chosen something a little less mickey-mouse then.. Hospitality management degree!! ????

What a ridiculous statement. 

 

So you wouldn't consider a career in the hospitality business. That doesn't mean it's not an attractive option which has made some extremely well off, and offered many a way to earn a living in a beautiful environment. 

 

Tells a lot about you to mock kids who have had their career path sabotaged by events completely out of their control. 

[Jeffr2]

26 minutes ago, ftpjtm said:

What a ridiculous statement. 

 

So you wouldn't consider a career in the hospitality business. That doesn't mean it's not an attractive option which has made some extremely well off, and offered many a way to earn a living in a beautiful environment. 

 

Tells a lot about you to mock kids who have had their career path sabotaged by events completely out of their control. 

Yeah, hard to make money in the hospitality business here!

 

https://www.forbes.com/profile/william-heinecke/?sh=75454f19453a

 

Quote

 

#23 William Heinecke

$1.4B

 

 

And that's down by a lot this past year.  Fantastic success story.

[metisdead]

Some troll posts and replies have been removed.

[newnative]

1 hour ago, spidermike007 said:

Oh yes it was. Everyone I talked with who managed hotels, ran guest houses, had restaurants, gift shops, massage shops, travel agencies, or bars, said the same thing. The industry had been in decline for a decade. Sure, the numbers were up. But the quality of tourists was way, way down. Thailand is reduced to attracting lower to middle income Chinese and Indian tourists these days, for the bulk of their visitors. For a done good reasons. 

 

Quantity over quality is never a good thing, unless you are selling one dollar items at a swap meet. It just lowers the quality of the experience for all.

       Sorry, I disagree.  When you were out talking to hotel managers, did you ask the Amari manager why they built the second hotel with suites for families?  Did you ask the Centre Point Hotel manager why they are still building the massive Centre Point 2 in Wong Amat, with quality tourism in decline?  Did you ask the manager of the nice, new Ozo Hotel why they spent money to build a new hotel?  Or, Discovery Beach Hotel on Pattaya Beach Road why they are building the third wing? Or, Mytt Hotel?  Brighton?  Did you ask all of them where they will find 'quality tourists' since Thailand is, apparently, attracting only 'lower to middle income Chinese and Indian tourists these days'?  Did you go to the hotel construction site across from Central Festival and ask why they were building a fancy, new hotel?  Or, how about the new one going up in Naklua?   Did you ask the restaurant manager at  Chocolate Factory why they needed a second restaurant?   Or, the restaurant manager at the fancy new Beach Quarters Restaurant near Amari? 

      Did you venture to the auto dealers and ask Mercedes why in the World did they ditch their old dealership and build a fancy new bigger dealership in dying Pattaya?  Ditto for Mazda and its new dealership.  Or, did you ask Audi, Subaru, MG, Mini, and BMW why they set up shop in the Pattaya area since nobody in the tourist business in Pattaya is going to be able to afford a new car.  How about Home Pro with its two new stores?  Or, Boonthavorn with its second store?   Why are they all building in a dying tourist area?

     You can say you talked to so and so and they said things were bad, pre-covid. I can say I talked to so and so and they said things were good, pre-covid.  In both cases it doesn't mean much.  I prefer more concrete evidence--which was on display everywhere you looked in the Pattaya area, pre-covid.  Were there some businesses suffering, pre-covid?  Of course there were.  Nobody disputes that.  The demographics are shifting.  26 million Asian tourists in 2019. 7 million European and American tourists in 2019.  Are some of the Asian tourists 'budget' tourists?  Yes.  Are they all budget tourists?  No--which is why Pattaya is getting nice, new hotels and restaurants--and an Audi dealership.    

[aussienam]

3 hours ago, John Drake said:

 

Do you think Thailand will be more or less reliant on China post-Covid?

I don't know to be honest.  Thailand does not have the same issues as Australia does.  But I just wanted to highlight the point of being over reliant on a particular customer base - whether that it importer, or within an industry sector.  I don't see any issues that have come to the fore between Thailand and China.  If I was to be a betting man though, I'd be hedging bets on Thailand increasing reliance on China for investment and other sources of wealth generation.  

I just hope Thailand remains a friendly state for Western nations and is not influenced by China to de-couple from the West.  Because, it seems we are entering a Cold War era now with China and China will be influencing those who want to benefit from it. 

WWII saw Thailand accept Japan moving in, with the subsequent many deaths of Western coalition allied forces that suffered at the hands of the Japanese Imperial force.  The railroad building and torture, starvation and many deaths is a scar lingering and mentioned yearly in Remembrance Days across the world. 

The West has always helped out Thailand and seen it as a friendly allied nation post WWII. 

The West has always offered a hand in disasters such as the Tsunami, trapped Thais in the cave, economic assistance and supported trade agreements.  I truly hope that things do not deteriorate because of China ruling and dictating with their iron fist.  Only time will tell.  

[nausea]

Thailand has had a problem with China for a long time. I understand the draconian residency laws are down to China, not, as you may think, any particular bias against Farangs. Like, the chances of Farangs taking over this country is something between nought and zero.

[Blumpie]

9 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Oh yes it was. Everyone I talked with who managed hotels, ran guest houses, had restaurants, gift shops, massage shops, travel agencies, or bars, said the same thing. The industry had been in decline for a decade. Sure, the numbers were up. But the quality of tourists was way, way down. Thailand is reduced to attracting lower to middle income Chinese and Indian tourists these days, for the bulk of their visitors. For a done good reasons. 

 

Quantity over quality is never a good thing, unless you are selling one dollar items at a swap meet. It just lowers the quality of the experience for all.

I don't doubt what you are writing at all.  

Tourism is an interesting industry.  Generally it's recession proof, but this black swan has completely destroyed what was left of it earth wide.

Thailand used to be something different.  It's morphed into something else and many have chosen to go elsewhere.  That may or may not be a bad thing long term - in my case, I just don't care.  It's more of a second world tourism place, overcrowded, and not that interesting anymore.  At least to myself.

There are plenty of places to visit that are like Thailand, but well, the food isn't quite as good and it's fun, cheap, and more authentic.  

[connda]

Of course not.  Instead implement draconian totalitarianism.  Most Thais can embrace that anyway.  Anyway, the political and government class won't care.  They have lifetime salaries and benefits.  And the commoners?  Let them eat rice husk with the ox and buffalo. 

[Mike k]

16 hours ago, tomauasia said:

My gf showed this to 6 Thais..All furious and this mafia gov made up of the 1% club. Won't be allowed to be reelected ????

He wasn't elected this time his crony hand picked generals picked him 

[sydneyjed]

Nobody will be travelling at least for another year..just look around the world and see what a train wreck this pandemic is causing right now!UK..what a disaster..US..even worse..Europe(Germany,Italy ,Spain and now Sweden)..South Korea..reeling from a spike in outbreaks in the last two weeks!All I can say is these vaccines had better deliver what's on the label otherwise I shudder to think what lies ahead in 2021 for many!

[Histavia]

Vaccines will deliver but those in the public who believe they shouldn't have one will extend the Covid pandenic for months. There is no guarantee that we wont be still waiting to come to Thailand this time next year.

[Histavia]

17 hours ago, KhunFred said:

The Thai government has been doing whatever it could to decimate tourism and expat activity for almost five years, so none of this should be surprising.

 

17 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Over development is an issue. I remember when I lived on Samui, one woman opened 14 fancy massage shops, within a three block radius on the beach road. It diminished the entire trade for nearly every other shop in Lamai. Nobody knows what she was thinking. Within two years, half of her shops had closed. Now, only one or two remain. When I moved there over 15 years ago, there were perhaps 15 massage shops in Lamai. At it's peak, before more than half closed due to Covid, and the tourism shutdown, there were over 70. Same goes for hotels. It was way overbuilt. Same applies to villas, many of which were built on spec, for resale. When they could not be sold, they were rented, and it brought down the entire market.

 

Remember when Thailand used to get alot of well heeled Western tourists? They brought real money into the country, and in exchange, were treated with utter and complete disregard, scammed, disrespected, and abused. The issues pertaining to the air, the environment, the road safety, the corrupt cops, the scammers, and others, were never addressed. Eventually, most said no more. Thailand thought the country was something very special, the center or the known universe, and that nobody would ever say no, or find alternative places to visit. The fact is that there are countless other spots, many in this region, that offer better service, more expertise in food and beverage (especially wine service and selection at fair prices, which rich tourists demand), reasonable import duties to sustain a luxury goods market, better training, and far better English skills.
 
Thailand simply lost sight of the big picture, and had very little vision, with regard to big spending tourists, who need to be catered to, instead of scorned.

So, what happened? The Western tourists started to decline in number, and the genius minds at the TAT decided it was time to "lure" the Chinese and Indians. They came. They came in droves. However, very few of the wealthy ones came, for so many good reasons. The ones who did come, they did not spend much money. Hotels, restaurants, gift shops, jewelers, galleries, spas, massage shops, bars, and countless other businesses suffered, from this extreme myopia, on the part of the officials in charge of tourism.
 
Oh well. Can't say they were not warned. Zero baht tourists are the vast majority who were visiting Thailand, prior to Covid. Sure, they spend some money in restaurants, at Tesco, and in 7/11. But, that is about it, for most of the super low budget Chinese and Indian tourists.

Practically 100 % incorrect. Western tourists have not declined their share of an exponentially increasing market had reduced... they ate not the big spenders... oer diem the Chi see are overall the biggest spenders...inevitably UAE and neighbours can exceed this but only in small numbers 

 

I dont agree in the unregulated way Thai tourism has been run...they have been pooping in their own nest for years and allowed the business to become a much too big a part of the economy.

 

This has made them very vulnerable to such world events as pandemics.... the recession that will follow may bring about a similar crash  to the 1990s.

The west will not save tourism in Thailand, it will be China and Asian countries who are nearby.

[simon43]

[quote]

Thailand’s tourist industry was suffering before COVID. 

No, it wasn't.  

[/quote]

 

I recall myself building the first, semi-decent airport hotel for travellers at Phuket International Airport around 2002.  Business was very good, always busy.  So I built additional small hotels/guesthouses, all dedicated to serving the needs of single, overnight stays.

 

Then slowly, slowly, business started a downturn.  The primary reason was oversupply of competing properties, many of them illegally-built, without operating licences.  Year on year, the guest room average rate reduced, due to a 'race-to-the-bottom', even though the quality of the product was improved by me.

 

Today, there are more than 100 guesthouses and hotels listed on booking websites at the airport.  It's unsustainable, especially when a licenced property that's paying all taxes has to compete against a fly-by-night business.

 

I got out of the hospitality sector in Phuket years ago. I sold the original hotel, the second was run into the ground by one of my Thai ex-wives who hadn't got a clue, a third was 'acquired' by Thai drug sellers, with the help of the local police and threats of extreme violence.  The fourth (owned by my other ex) is on it's last legs due to Covid-19.

 

I left Thailand years ago and have since done (and continue to do) business in Myanmar and Laos.  In both of these countries, I have never experienced the level of corruption and deceit that I found in Thailand.

 

IMHO, Thailand is a spent force, largely due to an illegal, corrupt and xenophobic government and 'other, high-level problems' that I can't mention here.  I think things will get much worse in that country before there's any chance of an improvement.

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, Histavia said:

 

Practically 100 % incorrect. Western tourists have not declined their share of an exponentially increasing market had reduced... they ate not the big spenders... oer diem the Chi see are overall the biggest spenders...inevitably UAE and neighbours can exceed this but only in small numbers 

 

I dont agree in the unregulated way Thai tourism has been run...they have been pooping in their own nest for years and allowed the business to become a much too big a part of the economy.

 

This has made them very vulnerable to such world events as pandemics.... the recession that will follow may bring about a similar crash  to the 1990s.

The west will not save tourism in Thailand, it will be China and Asian countries who are nearby.

Incorrect. While it is true statistically that the Chinese are the biggest spenders when it come to worldwide travel, those Chinese rarely come to Thailand. Those wealthier Chinese spenders want quality, great service, fair prices on luxury goods and wine and top end F & B service. They demand it, and Thailand rarely offers it. 

 

So, the general overall model does not apply. 

[Brera]

What is going on here ? Millions unemployed. Me personally  i think they've got more chance of flying to the moon than surviving without Tourism 

 

 

 

[khunkarl]

Just impose another lockdown and international tourism will never return. Except the Chinese maybe, and these are the only ones they want anyway. Great future, Thailand will end up being a Chinese colony or amusement park for the Chinese, or maybe both. No point for them to learn any English, they made like zero progress on that one the last three decades anyway. Better learn mandarin instead. 

[Visarghhhh]

Why build solar power plants in Laos?  I don't understand that one.  Who can explain that logic?

[J Town]

7 minutes ago, Visarghhhh said:

Why build solar power plants in Laos?  I don't understand that one.  Who can explain that logic?

Perhaps because they receive a lot of sun?

[Histavia]

7 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

Incorrect. While it is true statistically that the Chinese are the biggest spenders when it come to worldwide travel, those Chinese rarely come to Thailand. Those wealthier Chinese spenders want quality, great service, fair prices on luxury goods and wine and top end F & B service. They demand it, and Thailand rarely offers it. 

 

So, the general overall model does not apply. 

Talking about Thai tourism.....and you want to check the figures for China worldwide last few years. You are just making assumptions.

[Stargeezr]

My Thai family are regular people and not all that rich. Most of them only travel out of Thailand

once every 5 years as it is too expensive for them to do that more often. They do travel around by vehicle and most do not stay at any touristy hotels. They pic cheaper guest houses, or rent a furnished house for a weekend for less than 2000 baht.  They are not big spenders that the tourism businesses need. 

 

If the international tourists do not return to Thailand in the next year or so, those big hotels may not be open very long if at all.  Because Thailand is a tropical country and they get many travellers from Europe, Russia, China and other northern countries

that have cold snowy Winters, as well as Australia, New Zealand and some other southern countries that have people who want to see Asia at least once, or in Australia and NZ, a cheap holiday abroad but close by, they will get international travellers when the present pandemic is over.

 

That goes for all tropical countries.  The location is what is their saving grace for future business. My Vietnamese and other friends from other Asian countries, all tell me that the corruption is 

pretty much the same in most Asian countries, so I will not throw mud at the corruption in Thailand.  I do plan to go to Thailand to see my Thai family and to have a cheaper vacation than I can have in Canada, in the future. 

 

 I guarantee that I will go to Thailand at least twice

before I ever consider going to America again.  They will take at least 5 years to get this virus

under control, so that where ever you travel in that country you will not be risking in contacting

someone who may have Covid 19, or worse. 

 

Happy New Year Thailand, I hope that 2021 is

a start of some sort of recovery from Covid 19.

Geezer

[Mark mark]

Very VERY sensible I think. This Virus IS Real <Deleted> ... but I do think in the end ? Like after the end of next Year ? Or there abouts ? ... Things MIGHT just start to get a LOT better !!! … Like the "Too Many Rats In The Box" Logy, is just a result of just that, and environmental destruction, and Greed !!! …

 

Like David Attembougher puts the Mutation, in the Bat in China, that Jumped over to Humans and caused all of this <Deleted>,  down to the destruction of the Species !!! … The extermination of the bigger Grass Eaters and Predator Species d/t Habitat destruction !!! ...  Like the smaller species then get over Populated as they have no controls, things get out of control, and Viruses that would not exist before !!! Now DO !!! ... And here we are !!! Over Populated as well !!! … And behaving badly I think !!! ….

 

...  But well, I DO see a better period for Human Beings out of all of this .... IF we do learn !!! ...  And this Thai guy here is on to it also I think.  (And I WILL back him also) ...

[JP canada]

On 12/21/2020 at 5:53 PM, Jack Cook said:

Ah the daily dose of delusional humour. ????????????????????????????????

My thoughts exactly. ???? 

[TheFreqFlyer]

On 12/21/2020 at 7:44 AM, exparte said:

Thailand’s tourist industry was suffering before COVID. 

 

Only in your parallel universe.

 

It was BOOMING before Covid. 

[TheFreqFlyer]

On 12/23/2020 at 6:21 AM, simon43 said:

[quote]

Thailand’s tourist industry was suffering before COVID. 

No, it wasn't.  

[/quote]

 

I recall myself building the first, semi-decent airport hotel for travellers at Phuket International Airport around 2002.  Business was very good, always busy.  So I built additional small hotels/guesthouses, all dedicated to serving the needs of single, overnight stays.

 

Then slowly, slowly, business started a downturn.  The primary reason was oversupply of competing properties, many of them illegally-built, without operating licences.  Year on year, the guest room average rate reduced, due to a 'race-to-the-bottom', even though the quality of the product was improved by me.

 

Today, there are more than 100 guesthouses and hotels listed on booking websites at the airport.  It's unsustainable, especially when a licenced property that's paying all taxes has to compete against a fly-by-night business.

 

I got out of the hospitality sector in Phuket years ago. I sold the original hotel, the second was run into the ground by one of my Thai ex-wives who hadn't got a clue, a third was 'acquired' by Thai drug sellers, with the help of the local police and threats of extreme violence.  The fourth (owned by my other ex) is on it's last legs due to Covid-19.

 

I left Thailand years ago and have since done (and continue to do) business in Myanmar and Laos.  In both of these countries, I have never experienced the level of corruption and deceit that I found in Thailand.

 

IMHO, Thailand is a spent force, largely due to an illegal, corrupt and xenophobic government and 'other, high-level problems' that I can't mention here.  I think things will get much worse in that country before there's any chance of an improvement.

What a bunch of absolute nonsense.

 

I do business in all three countries and all of them are corrupt. Thailand is actually slightly LESS corrupt than the other two. 

 

OK I've never been in the business you're in, but unless you've tried doing business with Burmese warlords then you can't say you've experienced threats of violence, corruption or not being allowed to do anything because you're a FARANG.

 

Signs are up in Chinese run Shwe Koko, Myanmar stating that foreigners (by this WHITE FARANG) are meant, are BANNED. Nothing of the sort can be found in Thailand.