Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[2530Ubon]

51 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

It's got plenty to do with Scottish independence. One vote against Scotland joining and its bye bye Scotland. Spain have already stated, many times, that they will vote against. How straight forward that.

That's to do with Scotland potentially joining the EU - not Scottish independence from England/UK.

 

Spain has already said they would not object, and has NEVER said they would reject it - didn't you read the source? Here's another one;

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-membership-spain-scotland/

Quote

 

What was claimed

The Spanish government hasn’t said that it would veto an independent Scotland joining the European Union.

Our verdict

Correct, although it has said that Scotland would have to leave the EU and re-apply from the outside.

 “No other EU member state has said that it would veto an independent Scotland’s membership... The Spanish have not said that. Go home and Google this evening, the Spanish government have not said that they would veto.”

Joanna Cherry MP, 16 March 2017

We’ve done some Googling so you don’t have to. Long story short: Ms Cherry has a point.

The independence movement in Catalonia, a region of Spain, means that Madrid doesn’t like encouraging nationalist movements in other countries. That’s why it’s often assumed that the Spanish government is committed to vetoing an independent Scotland’s EU membership.

But there’s a possible misunderstanding here. There’s a difference between staying in the EU and rejoining it.

Essentially, Spain says that Scotland would have to exit the EU in the event of an independence vote, and then apply to join as a new member. (That’s also what the central EU bodies say.)

“Were Scotland to become independent... the country would be treated as a third state and would have to get in line to join the EU.” That’s from Spanish newspaper El País, summarising the position taken by the country’s foreign minister this week.

 

 

[vogie]

15 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

That's to do with Scotland potentially joining the EU - not Scottish independence from England/UK.

 

Spain has already said they would not object, and has NEVER said they would reject it - didn't you read the source? Here's another one;

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-membership-spain-scotland/

 

The article you provided is over 4 years old and I'm sure a lot of water has passed under that proverbial bridge since then. I don't take much credence in anything I read these days, here is another link that contradicts what you posted. I think it would be safe to say that no-one really knows, but it would be strange for a country like Spain who is adamant that Catalonia will remain in its domain to veto another countrys decision to leave the UK, would that be a fair comment?

 

 

"One of Madrid’s top diplomats in Scotland has been fired after saying that Spain would not block an independent Scotland’s accession to the EU, according to Spanish media.

In a letter obtained by pro-independence Scottish daily the National, Spanish Consul Miguel Ángel Vecino Quintana wrote: “Spain will not block Scotland’s entry into the European Union if independence is legally achieved and such has always been the intention of the Spanish Government.”

“Entry into the European Union does not depend at all in waiting in a queue like waiting in a shop for your turn to arrive,” he wrote.

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-fires-diplomat-in-scotland-over-eu-membership-letter/

 

[Neeranam]

One of my dreams has been fulfilled recently, to get a Thai passport; next on my list is to get a Scottish one and I can die a happy man, retiring to the highlands for a few months a year. 

[herfiehandbag]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

One of my dreams has been fulfilled recently, to get a Thai passport; next on my list is to get a Scottish one and I can die a happy man, retiring to the highlands for a few months a year. 

I'd quite like to have an English Passport - after all I am English!

[tebee]

4 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

It's got plenty to do with Scottish independence. One vote against Scotland joining and its bye bye Scotland. Spain have already stated, many times, that they will vote against. How straight forward that.

Scotland doesn't need to join the EU. All it needs is a Swiss type agreement with SM and CU membership.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

One of my dreams has been fulfilled recently, to get a Thai passport; next on my list is to get a Scottish one and I can die a happy man, retiring to the highlands for a few months a year. 

 

Which might decide to remain part of the UK

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Scotland doesn't need to join the EU. All it needs is a Swiss type agreement with SM and CU membership.

 

Just like that!

[mommysboy]

23 hours ago, Mavideol said:

how can it affect the UK, is that you and some others with similar ideas, who said not long ago, while talking about fishing rights, the UK doesn't need Scotland, so what is it,  need or no need, let the Scots be Scots (and not a province of England) they deserve it and they have the right to it

 

So many people from independent countries, who no doubt support the integrity of their own borders, rule of law, sovereignty, etc, seem to think it's wrong for the UK to have the same.

[vinny41]

Nearly 40% of Flemish would vote for independence

 

Nearly 40% of Flemish would vote to split up Belgium if a referendum were to be officially organised, as opposed to only 14% of Walloons and 17% of Brussels residents.

https://www.brusselstimes.com/belgium/84230/nearly-40-of-flemish-would-vote-for-independence-referendum/

 

It took nearly 500 days of political horse-trading for Belgium to welcome in a new coalition government, led by Alexander De Croo. And it's the second time in 10 years that Belgians have seen that happen.

The deal was done only by excluding the two main Flemish separatist movements N-VA and Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest) - the top two parties in the May 2019 election.

Their exclusion could increase pressure for the break-up of Belgium's Dutch-speaking north and French-speaking south. And yet the seeds of doubt were sown from the moment Belgium was born in 1830.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54378950

 

Doesn't seem to be much support on this forum for an independent Flanders

[IvorBiggun2]

For all you SNP supporters.

 

 

[2530Ubon]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

I think it would be safe to say that no-one really knows, but it would be strange for a country like Spain who is adamant that Catalonia will remain in its domain to veto another countrys decision to leave the UK, would that be a fair comment?

It's a fair comment, but the difference is that Scotland was an independent country prior to joining the UK.

Catalonia on the other hand, has never been an independent country, and has always been a part of Spain, ever since Spain was created.

https://www.quora.com/How-did-Catalonia-become-a-part-of-Spain

Quote

Catalonia has been for thousands of years a significant part of Spain. Spain without Catalonia cannot be understood and neither Catalonia without Spain. They have been inseparable throughout their entire history.

 

Very different circumstances. The Spanish would have no reason to object for this very reason, Catalonia was never an independent country. Scotland was an independent country only 300 years ago.

[Hi from France]

If Catalonia leaves Spain, a EU member, it leaves the EU at the same time. Same thing if Flanders leaves Belgium: they have to choose to leave the EU at the same time. 

 

 

Scotland is a very different situation: they were made to leave the EU while they voted for keeping EU membership.

 

They want a closer relationship, being unsatisfied that English nationalism caused them to loose EU membership.

 

Spain or indeed Belgium, understood this after a while, that is why they won't used their veto to prevent Scotland getting "back in" with us. 

 

 

 

Should Scotland have chosen independence at the previous referendum, they would have had to leave the EU at the same time as leaving the UK.

.. Then there would have been a problem analog to Spanish/Belgian separatism. 

 

This is not the case now

 

. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by Hi from France

[IvorBiggun2]

26 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

They want a closer relationship, being unsatisfied that English nationalism caused them to loose EU membership.

 

800,000 Scots live in England. The majority I'd imagine voted to leave the EU. I don't think you can label those as 'English Nationalists'. So who/what did they vote for? If Scotland was to gain independence would England have the right to ship those 800,000 back across the border? And why does a fifth of the Scottish nation live outside of Scotland?    

Edited January 16, 2021 by IvorBiggun2

[bkkcanuck8]

23 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

800,000 Scots live in England. The majority I'd imagine voted to leave the EU. I don't think you can label those as 'English Nationalists'. So who/what did they vote for? If Scotland was to gain independence would England have the right to ship those 800,000 back across the border? And why does a fifth of the Scottish nation live outside of Scotland?    

You have a wild imagination... how can you imagine that just because a Scot is in England that they voted to leave the EU?   There is nothing in your post that shows any correlation between the two....  Wouldn't a majority of those be attracted to work in London?  Did not London vote overwhelming to stay in the EU.  Even if the Scots in England were distributed equally, Brexit overall one by a few percentage points... so just because a Scot is in England in no way indicates which way they voted....

 

I would expect that after Scotland voted for independence that anyone resident in other parts of the UK would be able to chose one or the other citizenship (but not both; dual citizenship may be allowed but at time of separation it should be one or another and then if they want dual they have to follow the process in the other country).  [something that should have been part of the UK withdrawal agreement]

Edited January 16, 2021 by bkkcanuck8

[mommysboy]

56 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

If Catalonia leaves Spain, a EU member, it leaves the EU at the same time. Same thing if Flanders leaves Belgium: they have to choose to leave the EU at the same time. 

 

 

Scotland is a very different situation: they were made to leave the EU while they voted for keeping EU membership.

 

They want a closer relationship, being unsatisfied that English nationalism caused them to loose EU membership.

 

Spain or indeed Belgium, understood this after a while, that is why they won't used their veto to prevent Scotland getting "back in" with us. 

 

 

 

Should Scotland have chosen independence at the previous referendum, they would have had to leave the EU at the same time as leaving the UK.

.. Then there would have been a problem analog to Spanish/Belgian separatism. 

 

This is not the case now

 

. 

 

Yet in 2014, Scottish Nationalists were not so bothered at the prospect of leaving the EU, isn't that so?

[mommysboy]

17 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

You have a wild imagination... how can you imagine that just because a Scot is in England that they voted to leave the EU?   There is nothing in your post that shows any correlation between the two....  Wouldn't a majority of those be attracted to work in London?  Did not London vote overwhelming to stay in the EU.  Even if the Scots in England were distributed equally, Brexit overall one by a few percentage points... so just because a Scot is in England in no way indicates which way they voted....

 

I would expect that after Scotland voted for independence that anyone resident in other parts of the UK would be able to chose one or the other citizenship (but not both; dual citizenship may be allowed but at time of separation it should be one or another and then if they want dual they have to follow the process in the other country).  [something that should have been part of the UK withdrawal agreement]

 

Yes. Nevertheless I would imagine that most of them would vote for Scotland to remain in the UK.

[IvorBiggun2]

37 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Did not London vote overwhelming to stay in the EU.

May be we should also allow Londoners to have a referendum as well? There is in fact an SNP based in London. It has 18 members in 2014 and they never meet other than on the internet. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by IvorBiggun2

[Hi from France]

19 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yet in 2014, Scottish Nationalists were not so bothered at the prospect of leaving the EU, isn't that so?

It is, and I think that was a mistake. 

[IvorBiggun2]

42 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

Did not London vote overwhelming to stay in the EU

May be so but they never asked for a referendum. 9 million people in London denied EU membership. Are they kicking up?  

[bkkcanuck8]

2 minutes ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

May be so but they never asked for a referendum. 9 million people in London denied EU membership. Are they kicking up?  

London was always always part of England... there is no separate identity (or if there is it would amount to fractions of a percent).  Scotland has been independent, and the 'home rule' movement has been in existence for more than 100 years (if not from the very beginning; which many Scots viewed as a betrayal by their elites).   EU is in many ways a state (so called super-state), each country effectively becoming more of a state in a United States (of Europe).   The benefit or risk (depending on the side of the equation you are on), is that former countries that have never fully accepted the union.... would see less benefit to having three levels of government in a federal united states system....  You have a federal government responsible for currency, trading standards between states and regulation harmony between the states.  The state level would be responsible for their own social programs, education, etc. (with little overlap between the two levels)... so the question in such a system is what use is the third level of government.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

London was always always part of England... there is no separate identity (or if there is it would amount to fractions of a percent).  Scotland has been independent, and the 'home rule' movement has been in existence for more than 100 years (if not from the very beginning; which many Scots viewed as a betrayal by their elites).   EU is in many ways a state (so called super-state), each country effectively becoming more of a state in a United States (of Europe).   The benefit or risk (depending on the side of the equation you are on), is that former countries that have never fully accepted the union.... would see less benefit to having three levels of government in a federal united states system....  You have a federal government responsible for currency, trading standards between states and regulation harmony between the states.  The state level would be responsible for their own social programs, education, etc. (with little overlap between the two levels)... so the question in such a system is what use is the third level of government.

 

There is absolutely no logic or cogency here.

[StreetCowboy]

7 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

There is absolutely no logic or cogency here.

I think perhaps his point was that Scotland would have more self-rule as one of many states within Europe than as a minority country within a United Kingdom perpetually ruled by a government elected by their neighbour despite Scotland's opposition.

 

I am trying to open a sweepstake on when England will seek to rejoin the European Union.

 

SC

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, IvorBiggun2 said:

800,000 Scots live in England. The majority I'd imagine voted to leave the EU. I don't think you can label those as 'English Nationalists'. So who/what did they vote for? If Scotland was to gain independence would England have the right to ship those 800,000 back across the border? And why does a fifth of the Scottish nation live outside of Scotland?    

 

 

Why would the majority of Scots living in England vote to leave the EU when the majority of English people in England didn't vote to leave the EU.

 

Barely 1 in 3 of the electorate voted to leave the EU so it is somewhat fanciful to suggest that Scots bucked the English trend. 

[RuamRudy]

4 hours ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yet in 2014, Scottish Nationalists were not so bothered at the prospect of leaving the EU, isn't that so?

 

It would have been a necessary step which would be reversed in time. You can't make an omelette etc. 

[talahtnut]

The Scots need a Sturgenite rebellion, sack Westminster, and rule England and Scotland from Holyrood, lets face it, it couldn't be worse than the English bumbling political idiots.

[mommysboy]

13 hours ago, StreetCowboy said:

I think perhaps his point was that Scotland would have more self-rule as one of many states within Europe than as a minority country within a United Kingdom perpetually ruled by a government elected by their neighbour despite Scotland's opposition.

 

I am trying to open a sweepstake on when England will seek to rejoin the European Union.

 

SC

 

Yes, The UK (or maybe it will just be England by then) will very likely have a referendum at some point in the future.  If the Scots establish the right of a referendum every 7 years (unlikely imo) it could even happen in a few years.

[mommysboy]

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

It would have been a necessary step which would be reversed in time. You can't make an omelette etc. 

 

So the same argument can be applied to UK leaving EU.  It will cause some hardship at first.

 

In my opinion, actually leaving the UK will crack a heck of a lot more eggs for Scotland, some big ones too.  That's not to say it can't or shouldn't be done, but it's going to be very disruptive to both Scotland and the UK. 

[RuamRudy]

45 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

So the same argument can be applied to UK leaving EU.  It will cause some hardship at first.

 

In my opinion, actually leaving the UK will crack a heck of a lot more eggs for Scotland, some big ones too.  That's not to say it can't or shouldn't be done, but it's going to be very disruptive to both Scotland and the UK. 

The big difference being, however, if Scotland leaves the UK it will be in line with the majority view of the Scottish people. In that case, we WOULD get what we voted for. 

[KarenBravo]

As Leopold Amery said to Neville Chamberlain "In the name of God, go". 

 

If you let only the English vote on Scots independence, you would get 99% supporting it.

[IvorBiggun2]

What's a Scot, Irish person etc? Over the years we've lived as one and therefore I doubt you'd find a true national in any of the UK. Is Sturgeon a full blooded Scot?  

Quote

 Her family has some roots in North East England; her paternal grandmother was from Ryhope in what is now the City of Sunderland.^[6]