Brown Envelopes

[Natai Beach]

Good morning, nice blue sky morning here on beautiful Natai Beach.

 

Since I joined this forum I don’t think a day has gone by where I haven’t read about the “brown envelopes”.

 

I have lived in Thailand for a while and have paid “smoothing over” or “fast track” fees four times that I can recall, not including traffic infringements and “petrol money” which have only been small amounts and always cash with no brown envelope.
 

I have never used a brown envelope. 
 

Once I have used cash, twice was just a one off bank transfer and the other was a monthly fee also paid by simply a bank transfer. I find the transfer to be very convenient and it is also a good way of proof of payment if any issues arise. 
 

Do any of you blokes still use brown envelopes or is just an outdated, but often repeated myth? 
 

Also, does anyone know why it has to be “brown”. Is white ok?
 

[tonray]

I prefer a diplomatic pouch....looks more professional in a 'spy vs spy' sort of way

[colinneil]

Just now, Natai Beach said:

Good morning, nice blue sky morning here on beautiful Natai Beach.

 

Since I joined this forum I don’t think a day has gone by where I haven’t read about the “brown envelopes”.

 

I have lived in Thailand for a while and have paid “smoothing over” or “fast track” fees four times that I can recall, not including traffic infringements and “petrol money” which have only been small amounts and always cash with no brown envelope.
 

 

So you admit there is corruption going on, and you are aiding and abetting it, not good.

[ezzra]

Brown envelope journalism (BEJ) is a practice whereby monetary inducement is given to journalists to make them write a positive story or kill a negative story. The name is derived from cash inducements hidden in brown envelopes and given to journalists during press briefings...

[BangkokReady]

I don't think the term originated in Thailand.  So it's kind of a phrase used to refer to a bribe or pay-off.  Doesn't need to actually be in a brown envelope.

[BangkokReady]

4 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Brown envelope journalism (BEJ) is a practice whereby monetary inducement is given to journalists to make them write a positive story or kill a negative story. The name is derived from cash inducements hidden in brown envelopes and given to journalists during press briefings...

 

Apparently the term "brown envelope" predates that.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Quote

The term "brown envelope" was first coined in 1994 after the cash-for-questions-affair, a political scandal in the United Kingdom (UK). The Guardian alleged that the owner of Harrods department store, Mohamed Al-Fayed, had paid a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons to ask a question using a brown-colored envelope for the transaction.^[2][3]

 

[PatOngo]

22 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

I have lived in Thailand for a while

Stick around a while longer, you'll get it eventually! Maybe!

[Natai Beach]

19 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

The term "brown envelope" was first coined in 1994 after the cash-for-questions-affair, a political scandal in the United Kingdom (UK). The Guardian alleged that the owner of Harrods department store, Mohamed Al-Fayed, had paid a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons to ask a question using a brown-colored envelope for the transaction.^[2][3]

 
Ah. 
It is an English term description from their corrupt system. 
That makes sense, I have never heard a Thai asking for a brown envelope or even refer to one. 
 

So it is basically a Thai Visa Forum often repeated myth. 
 

interesting link to one of Princess Di’s boyfriends.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Natai Beach

[KannikaP]

17 minutes ago, BangkokReady said:

 

Apparently the term "brown envelope" predates that.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

 

Ezzra did not state when BEJ started.

[soi3eddie]

 

Forget brown envelopes. A stuffed suitcase has better effect on sorting any issues or smoothing permissions etc.

 

[CharlieH]

Post removed.

 

DO NOT make personal remarks.

 

[worgeordie]

I use Airmail envelopes ,much more colourful,.....and they are the

only ones I have.????

regards Worgeordie

[madmitch]

In my early days in Thailand when I made the probably unwise decision to buy a condo in Bangkok, the person handling the transaction put a few thousand baht in a brown envelope that was includeded with all the papers at the land office. This had the effect of reducing the tax and speeding up the process. That was in 2003 and I've never passed a brown envelope since that day.

 

But it's a general English term for a bribe, not to be taken literally

[Crossy]

Surely in the Far East the envelope should be red.

[Natai Beach]

So we have established that the “brown envelope” is indeed a complete myth, and something you will never hear Thais use.

 

The thai phrase mostly used informally is “jai dai doh” literally “pay under table” or more formally in newspapers “dtit sin bon” which translates to English as “graft”.

 

On reflection it does seem to be a much used phrase by the English  forum members, from where the term originates.

[petermik]

No such thing as corruption here anymore..the PM promised following the coup it would be eradicated....

[KannikaP]

23 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

So we have established that the “brown envelope” is indeed a complete myth, and something you will never hear Thais use.

 

The thai phrase mostly used informally is “jai dai doh” literally “pay under table” or more formally in newspapers “dtit sin bon” which translates to English as “graft”.

 

On reflection it does seem to be a much used phrase by the English  forum members, from where the term originates.

Sorry Mr Beach, YOU have established that point.

Most of us here know exactly to what brown envelopes refer. We in the UK also use 'pay under the table' for the same thing. Or a back-hander.

So are you really saying that the phrase originated here on Thai Visa Forum by the English members, drinking our high tea? Sounds just weird to me.

Edited January 18, 2021 by KannikaP

[CharlieH]

Another personal reference removed. If this continues the topic will be CLOSED.

[cdemundo]

27 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

So we have established that the “brown envelope” is indeed a complete myth, and something you will never hear Thais use.

 

The thai phrase mostly used informally is “jai dai doh” literally “pay under table” or more formally in newspapers “dtit sin bon” which translates to English as “graft”.

 

On reflection it does seem to be a much used phrase by the English  forum members, from where the term originates.

I have had to pay bribes and kick backs before, but I have never actually passed the money "under the table".  This confuses me.  Is this just some TVF myth or propaganda.  I have always just handed the person the money or sometimes just include it with the payment for the rest of the transaction.  Sometime it was at a counter, in a car, or even in a parking lot where no table was near.  I just don't understand this expression "under the table".  Maybe it is a symptom  of rampant corruption in the English speaking nations.  I would appreciate any clarification so I can sleep at night without wondering about this.

 

[KannikaP]

6 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

I have had to pay bribes and kick backs before, but I have never actually passed the money "under the table".  This confuses me.  Is this just some TVF myth or propaganda.  I have always just handed the person the money or sometimes just include it with the payment for the rest of the transaction.  Sometime it was at a counter, in a car, or even in a parking lot where no table was near.  I just don't understand this expression "under the table".  Maybe it is a symptom  of rampant corruption in the English speaking nations.  I would appreciate any clarification so I can sleep at night without wondering about this.

 

The phrase únder the table' was coined well before cars, counters or parking lots were invented.    LOL

In English speaking nations, we have lots of phrases which originated many centuries ago and are still used and there are many dictionary sites which will explain those which you do not understand. Únder the table' is pretty obvious, but maybe someone is 'pulling your leg' about it. Look it up as it did not mean then what it does now.

Edited January 18, 2021 by KannikaP

[faraday]

Here ya go Natai. Note the word Australia.

 

https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/bribery-and-corruption-cash-in-brown-paper-envelop-gm598792724-102730415

 

 

[Dagfinnur Traustason]

Seems to me that you have missed the point totally! Brown envelope is just an expression made to point out it´s a bribe. I do not think it´s meant to be taken litterally.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Dagfinnur Traustason

[Natai Beach]

25 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Sorry Mr Beach, YOU have established that point.

Most of us here know exactly to what brown envelopes refer. 

I thought it might have been based on some sort of fact the way that it is repeated multiple times on this forum daily. 
 

So far nobody has admitted to using one. 
 

Pre 2017 it was always cash. But since then transfers are readily accepted with a name and bank account number and a bank record of the recipient. 
Which leaves a “paper trail” or something that could be used in evidence which surprises me a bit. 
 

[Natai Beach]

4 minutes ago, faraday said:

Here ya go Natai. Note the word Australia.

 

https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/bribery-and-corruption-cash-in-brown-paper-envelop-gm598792724-102730415

 

 

Thanks for that mate.
 

i am pretty sure I never paid any while living in Australia, though I did see my father pay a policeman way back in the 80s to “forget” some evidence in a court case.

i have seen reported cases in Australia but that was the only one I personally witnessed.

[Natai Beach]

22 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

I have had to pay bribes and kick backs before, but I have never actually passed the money "under the table".  This confuses me.  

 

Ah, the old “kick back”! 
Similar to the Thai phrase for the same thing which is “Kick the pig into the dogs mouth” 

 

Another one that is popular with Chinese Thais in the south is “Gow Jia” which is “The dog take it”  
 

Under the table is the Thai term, we are in Thailand, on a Thai forum so you might think the Thai terms would be used more, than the English one.

 

 

[CrunchWrapSupreme]

In most teaching jobs for foreigners, the brown envelope process is behind the scenes. They simply get their salary, originating as a higher amount up the tree, which then comes down to 30-40k after many hands had come out for a cut.

 

But at my first jobs, haha, it was out in the open. I was told there had been an error, they had included the "administrative fees for my position" in my paycheck, which I had to pay back each month.

 

That's how they justify it. They aren't getting paid enough. Then here comes this new guy they have to support, so they should be compensated.

[nikmar]

A certain ex PM allegedly used a box of donuts. ????

[ballpoint]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

Surely in the Far East the envelope should be red.

Bringing a new meaning to the term "red letter".

[KannikaP]

3 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

Bringing a new meaning to the term "red letter".

And in France?

[BangkokReady]

4 hours ago, Natai Beach said:

So it is basically a Thai Visa Forum often repeated myth.

Not really a myth.  More of a turn of phrase.

 

Like most figures of speech, it simply explains something easily while creating a visual image.  People could just as easily say "bribes", but I guess they prefer the words "brown envelopes".

Edited January 18, 2021 by BangkokReady