Denmark, Norway and Iceland suspend AstraZeneca COVID shots after blood clot reports

[placnx]

Since SARS scientists have been working on mRNA technology. Emergency authorization is an ethical decision. Eventual licensure will follow.

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, onthedarkside said:

Several off-topic Brexit-related posts have been removed. The topic here is coronavirus vaccines, not Brexit.

It is about vaccines but with respect, do you not think that some of the EU's 'problems' with the AZ vaccine are Brexit related?  They firstly complained that the UK was getting more than its fair share of the AZ vaccine and made threats. Then they said there was not enough research to recommend it for over 65's, creating suspicion and generally bad PR about the AZ product.

Now their clinicians have given the AZ vaccine the OK for over 65's we have scare stories from their politicians that the AZ vaccine may be dangerous - even though their own regulator says it should still be used. That seems to be politically motivated to me and I was not a Brexiteer.

In theory, no matter where you live it should be that:

You vote in politicians to run your country.

You take note of what medical experts state in relation to vaccines.

Here we have politicians going against the advice of their own medical experts - considering the above facts and what is happening at the moment, I don't think its possible to completely separate the AZ vaccine and Brexit. Sour grapes come to mind.

[onthedarkside]

Another vaccine misinformation post has been removed.

Posts that discuss vaccine issues as they relate to the UK and EU are on-topic.  Posts that divert off into exclusively Brexit discussions are not.

 

[mommysboy]

12 minutes ago, onthedarkside said:

Another vaccine misinformation post has been removed.

Posts that discuss vaccine issues as they relate to the UK and EU are on-topic.  Posts that divert off into exclusively Brexit discussions are not.

 

The crazy thing here is that the countries involved prefer a small amount of unchecked, over the real world data in the UK, where the AZ has been in 11 million arms already. Currently 100- 250k of AZ shots given every day.

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, Hi from France said:

The UK went full steam ahead injecting this vaccine to its own population but this was not prudent... 

Have you looked at the latest figures on deaths and infections from the UK - compared to pre-vaccine? Not prudent?

The scare mongering in the EU has created significant suspicion - so much so that Germany has only used 10% of its AZ stock - that's what I would say is 'not prudent'.

The UK's response to the Pandemic was at best, poor but its administration of the vaccine has been beyond all expectations.

Last time I looked - vaccine uptake in the UK was running at over 90% - in France its what? 70%?

Edit: Possibly less than 70% and here's one of the reasons why.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2021/02/why-france-getting-covid-19-vaccination-so-wrong

[Boomer6969]

17 hours ago, LazySlipper said:

How will these vaccines affect our DNA long term?

I am 68 and had a vasectomy, so it must be quite safe for me. 

[KhaoYai]

In my opinion there's only one consideration when deciding on whether to have the vaccine or not. 

Results to date show that the AZ vaccine is 100% effective at preventing hospitalisation or death - that'll do for me.

There are many sources giving that information but its in the link I posted above and here also.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2021/02/why-france-getting-covid-19-vaccination-so-wrong

I have to say though that I'd have been happy to have either the AZ or Pfizer vaccines.

[Hi from France]

25 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Have you looked at the latest figures on deaths and infections from the UK - compared to pre-vaccine? Not prudent?

The scare mongering in the EU has created significant suspicion - so much so that Germany has only used 10% of its AZ stock - that's what I would say is 'not prudent'.

The UK's response to the Pandemic was at best, poor but its administration of the vaccine has been beyond all expectations.

in retrospect yes, but I consider going full steam injecting the AstraZeneca was more of a gamble because it was untested with older people. Likewise the single-dose strategy went against test and medical advice

 

now it seems to have worked, fine. But it was a gamble.

[impulse]

I view the vaccines kind of like seat belts.  Every once in awhile, I read about someone burning up in a flaming wreck because their seat belt didn't release.

But I still fasten mine.

I'm due for my 2nd Pfizer jab on Monday.

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Likewise the single-dose strategy went against test and medical advice

 

now it seems to have worked, fine. But it was a gamble.

The UK doesn't have a single dose strategy - I presume you are refering to the extension from 3 weeks to 12 weeks for the second dose?

That was not a gamble, the UK medical experts reviewed the data that was available and concluded that there would be no disadvantage to extending the period between doses. That allowed the UK to vaccinate more people with the first dose and therefore increase the amount of people protected.

What they didn't know was that extending the dosage period would actually give a higher rate of protection against death or hospitalisation - that wasn't a gamble, it was luck.  AZ hadn't tried that approach in their trials - probably because the were focused on making the vaccine available as fast as was safely possible.

It wasn't that there was no data available on over 65's, there was some. The UK experts decided that in an emergency situation, the available data was sufficient, the experts in some EU countries decided it wasn't.  None of the available data showed any danger to over 65's.

Given that the situation was and is urgent, I think it was the EU that took the gamble, not the UK.

[bangon04]

21 hours ago, ukrules said:

If the EU no longer require the Oxford/AZ vaccine then I'm sure they will not mind the UK using all available allocations to speed up the already quite advanced vaccination roll out.

 

 

It would certainly reduce the cross border red tape and whingeing - the Pfizer can stay in Belgium and the AZ can be used in the UK.

[irishman25]

22 hours ago, lkv said:

Prayuth was scheduled later on today for a jab of this, he'd better take some Aspirin before. ????

they should jab it in the unmentioned area for the body then he could complain and show the results. 

[irishman25]

47 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

The UK doesn't have a single dose strategy - I presume you are refering to the extension from 3 weeks to 12 weeks for the second dose?

That was not a gamble, the UK medical experts reviewed the data that was available and concluded that there would be no disadvantage to extending the period between doses. That allowed the UK to vaccinate more people with the first dose and therefore increase the amount of people protected.

What they didn't know was that extending the dosage period would actually give a higher rate of protection against death or hospitalisation - that wasn't a gamble, it was luck.  AZ hadn't tried that approach in their trials - probably because the were focused on making the vaccine available as fast as was safely possible.

It wasn't that there was no data available on over 65's, there was some. The UK experts decided that in an emergency situation, the available data was sufficient, the experts in some EU countries decided it wasn't.  None of the available data showed any danger to over 65's.

Given that the situation was and is urgent, I think it was the EU that took the gamble, not the UK.

As a Irishman the UK is leading the way to quickly control and stop this covid 19 virus. they were right to lengthy the does;s to 9 to 12 weeks more people can get vaccinated and SAVE LIVES other country's should do the same   

[daveAustin]

17 hours ago, Phoenix Rising said:

When the UK applies for reentry into the EU (and let's be honest, it's not a matter of if, but when) your level of cooperation during the pandemic will surely factor in.

lol Dream on. As for level of cooperation... how's making a cheap, viable vaccine that will save millions of lives figure for you? Likely coincidence, but even if it did kill a few (same for Pfizer et al), which would be totally expected, what would be the big deal out of MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS administered with no ill-effect?

Just at total overreaction by bureaucrats of some feeble nations, where annual flu jabs kill all the time with no news.

[daveAustin]

Of Thailand suspending AZ jabs, am not surprised. Waiting for any excuse to scupper a western made jab so the army's masters can roll out the china jab. Carry on. 

[donnacha]

3 hours ago, irishman25 said:

As a Irishman the UK is leading the way to quickly control and stop this covid 19 virus. they were right to lengthy the does;s to 9 to 12 weeks more people can get vaccinated and SAVE LIVES other country's should do the same   

Ireland and the UK are taking essentially the same approach. Ireland just has far fewer vaccines because, tragically, we were ordered to stop making our own arrangements and cancel the existing contracts we had made.

In both the UK and Ireland, the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) are mostly being allocated to older folks. They receive their second shot about 4 weeks later.

Most younger folks getting early access (frontline workers, care workers etc) are getting AstraZeneca and receiving their second shot 12 weeks later. It is a good strategy but, unfortunately, it does not make up for the ridiculous shortages. Ireland is at almost 11% first shot received, slightly above the EU average of 10%, while over the border in Northern Ireland half the population have received at least their first shot.

To put this into perspective, current projections suggests that any Irish citizen under 50 but not in a special job or health category will receive their first shot in November.

My hope is that the current hysteria on the continent  (which, under various guises over the past few months, has essentially always been about Brexit) will result in a million or so extra AZ shots being redirected to Ireland, allowing us to reach general availability by the summer.

The greatest pity is that Europeans will not simply be allowed to buy the shots privately. Some need to travel for family and business reasons. Many members of this forum are currently trapped outside Thailand. The various vaccination passport schemes will emerge over the coming months. Once the most vulnerable have been inoculated, people willing to pay €1000 or whatever to be able to get those shots and that certification, so they can travel without quarantines, testing, and special insurance, should be allowed to do so.

 

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, donnacha said:

In both the UK and Ireland, the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) are mostly being allocated to older folks. They receive their second shot about 4 weeks later.

I can't speak for Ireland but you're not quite correct about the UK. To the best of my knowledge, the only people to have the second jab early are those that had it before the change to 12 weeks and those who were with some GP's who went against the grain. The appointment for the second dose is booked at the same time as you book the first and is approximately 12 weeks after the first. My first was on 7 March and my second is booked for 25 May.

Everybody I know that has had their vaccination has either had the AZ of the Pfizer product - mostly AZ. There doesn't seem to have been any preference for any particular age group.  I haven't heard of anyone having the Moderna vaccine yet but it was the last one to receive approval and may not have been delivered yet.

People in groups 1-4 had all either had their vaccination or been offered one a few weeks back and most of groups 5 to 7 have again, either had theirs or been invited to.  Group 8 (over 55's) began getting their vaccine as of 8 March and group 9 (over 50's) is expected to begin by mid April. That will conclude Phase 1.

The remaining age groups - Phase 2 may take a little longer as people come forward for their second dose but the programme is targeted to be complete by 31 July.

Uptake in England has been very good in all groups over 60 years old but varied by area between 82% and 91%.

[donnacha]

31 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I can't speak for Ireland but you're not quite correct about the UK. To the best of my knowledge, the only people to have the second jab early are those that had it before the change to 12 weeks and those who were with some GP's who went against the grain. The appointment for the second dose is booked at the same time as you book the first and is approximately 12 weeks after the first. My first was on 7 March and my second is booked for 25 May.

I'm surprised to hear that, I have a vague recollection of Pfizer being insistent that their vaccine should only be used in same timeframes as it was tested, but thanks for letting me know.
 

31 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

The remaining age groups - Phase 2 may take a little longer as people come forward for their second dose but the programme is targeted to be complete by 31 July.

That is a monumental achievement on the single most important task so far in this decade for any country. It is not an exaggeration to say that the UK economy's early emergence from lockdown is going to be a game-changer, at a crucial time, in terms of how the world perceives the new UK and the confidence the British people feel about themselves.
 

31 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Uptake in England has been very good in all groups over 60 years old but varied by area between 82% and 91%.

Straightforward, sensible people when it really matters, with no leaders stirring up hysteria for geo-political purposes. Impressive. The Irish are much the same but, sadly, we trusted other people to organize the supply.

 

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, donnacha said:

Ireland and the UK are taking essentially the same approach. Ireland just has far fewer vaccines because, tragically, we were ordered to stop making our own arrangements and cancel the existing contracts we had made.

Nonsense. The EU doesn't have the authority to order Ireland to make independent arrangements for purchasing a vaccine.

[donnacha]

58 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Nonsense. The EU doesn't have the authority to order Ireland to make independent arrangements for purchasing a vaccine.

Once, just once, I would love to see you post something in this forum that wasn't completely <deleted>-backwards.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/health/covid19-vaccine-oxford-ireland-brexit-19672792
 

Quote

Belgian Prime Minister Alexander De Croo told broadcaster VRT News last month: “In the UK, they have started vaccination earlier, that's correct.

“But they have used their population as guinea pigs over there, and they have opted not to do these extra tests.”

Irish diplomat, Ray Bassett, told Express.co.uk: “Our Minister for Health, Stephen Donnelly, has just been rebuffed publicly when he suggested that Ireland should bring in some supplies of the AstraZeneca/Oxford COVID vaccine in anticipation of its approval by the European Medicines Agency.

“The Irish Government was sharply told by the Commission that this would not be permitted.

“It is hard to see how any democratic Government should allow itself to be overruled by an unelected body like the Commission especially when the health of its citizens is involved in a pandemic.”

 

[mommysboy]

11 hours ago, Hi from France said:

in retrospect yes, but I consider going full steam injecting the AstraZeneca was more of a gamble because it was untested with older people. Likewise the single-dose strategy went against test and medical advice

 

now it seems to have worked, fine. But it was a gamble.

It wasn't a gamble in terms of safety.  There had also been a separate study on old people confirming efficacy was likely. 

Vaccines don't stop working the moment someone turns 65.

Yes it was lucky that the AZ vaccine turns out to be the very best for older people- nobody saw that coming.

[mommysboy]

8 hours ago, impulse said:

I view the vaccines kind of like seat belts.  Every once in awhile, I read about someone burning up in a flaming wreck because their seat belt didn't release.

But I still fasten mine.

I'm due for my 2nd Pfizer jab on Monday.

Yes, as a youngster I remember being told prior to a vaccine that there was a 1 in a million chance of something going badly wrong.  I took that in my stride, after all I'd never been struck by lightning- and I still haven't, or won the lottery either.

But seriously, I think we all know that a tiny proportion of reported deaths are very likely connected to the vaccines, even though there is no proof. Unfortunately it's a gamble we need to take as a society imo.

[stevenl]

8 hours ago, donnacha said:

 

Deleted.

[7by7]

18 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

It is about vaccines but with respect, do you not think that some of the EU's 'problems' with the AZ vaccine are Brexit related?  They firstly complained that the UK was getting more than its fair share of the AZ vaccine and made threats. Then they said there was not enough research to recommend it for over 65's, creating suspicion and generally bad PR about the AZ product.

Now their clinicians have given the AZ vaccine the OK for over 65's we have scare stories from their politicians that the AZ vaccine may be dangerous - even though their own regulator says it should still be used. That seems to be politically motivated to me and I was not a Brexiteer.

In theory, no matter where you live it should be that:

You vote in politicians to run your country.

You take note of what medical experts state in relation to vaccines.

Here we have politicians going against the advice of their own medical experts - considering the above facts and what is happening at the moment, I don't think its possible to completely separate the AZ vaccine and Brexit. Sour grapes come to mind.

You should check the facts before posting propaganda. The EU does not have any problems with the AstraZeneca vaccine: Oxford-AstraZeneca: EU says 'no indication' vaccine linked to clots

Quote

There is no indication that the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine is linked to an increased risk of blood clots, the EU's medicines regulator says.

It said the number of cases in vaccinated people was no higher than in the general population.

Something you, yourself, admit!

You say "In theory, no matter where you live it should be that: You vote in politicians to run your country."

It is the politicians, i.e. the governments, of individual countries who have made the decisions. Seven European countries, all EU members, have suspended use of a particular batch of the virus. Three have suspended all use of it. Of those three, two, Norway and Iceland, are not EU members!

So nine EU members out of 27 have taken some form of suspension. If the EU is controlling this as some sort of pay back for Brexit, what about the other 18? Why aren't the big players, France and Germany, taking part?

You also say "You take note of what medical experts state in relation to vaccines."

As the article says, the above countries' governments have acted on the advice of their own medical experts.

 

 

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

You should check the facts before posting propaganda. The EU does not have any problems with the AstraZeneca vaccine: Oxford-AstraZeneca: EU says 'no indication' vaccine linked to clots

And you sir, should read posts properly before posting blurb.  If you read my post fully you will note I state the politicians are going against their own (the EU's) medical regulators advice.

There's no propaganda in what I wrote, its all factual.  I accept that not all EU members have banned the AZ vaccine but the EU is a group is it not? A UNION? The EU's problems with the AZ vaccine go back further than this latest matter relating to blood clots - you may remember their spat with AZ which they caused themselves by ordering the vaccine late. They also approved it later than the UK.

You write that Germany hasn't banned the AZ vaccine over the blood clot matter, maybe not but they were one of the main reasons for the public's suspicion of the AZ vaccine because of their previous stance on 0ver 65's.

To go further in relation to the EU's 'Union' and its current actions would take us off topic - which the moderators here have made clear, is not allowed.

I have nothing to gain by posting 'propaganda' against the EU - I wanted the UK to remain. However, what I've seen recently in relation to the Pandemic/AZ/Vaccines in general has illustrated to me at least, that the EU is not really a Union, they can't get their act together so individual countries go it alone.

Overall, it seems clear that all of the EU's problems with the AZ vaccine are politically motivated.  If you read through this thread and other sources, you will see that having read the reports, many people suspect the same.

I sincerely hope the EU stops this behaviour and gets their vaccination programme going for the sake of their citizens. The world's vaccine manufacturers have done an incredible job at providing effective protection against Covid 19 in record time.  Rather than get their lip down because the UK has done far better than them in rolling out their vaccine programme, the EU would be better off learning from it.

I criticise where criticism is due, I have no political allegiance that prevents me from speaking the truth. The UK made a complete mess of their response to the pandemic which has cost thousands of lives. Our Track and Trace programme has been nothing short of a very expensive joke (£37 Billion). However, the UK's vaccination programme so far, has been an outstanding success.

[KhaoYai]

9 hours ago, donnacha said:

I'm surprised to hear that, I have a vague recollection of Pfizer being insistent that their vaccine should only be used in same timeframes as it was tested, but thanks for letting me know.

Got to be honest, I don't know about Pfizer, I should have made it clear on that - I was referring to the AZ vaccine.

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

But seriously, I think we all know that a tiny proportion of reported deaths are very likely connected to the vaccines, even though there is no proof. Unfortunately it's a gamble we need to take as a society imo

There is probably truth in what you say and it may be that no actual connection is ever found.  Taking that into account, I wonder how many of the vaccinated people would have died from Covid 19 if they hadn't had the vaccine - a lot more than the 2 deaths from blood clots reported so far.

[7by7]

13 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

And you sir, should read posts properly before posting blurb.  If you read my post fully you will note I state the politicians are going against their own (the EU's) medical regulators advice.

There's no propaganda in what I wrote, its all factual.  I accept that not all EU members have banned the AZ vaccine but the EU is a group is it not? A UNION? The EU's problems with the AZ vaccine go back further than this latest matter relating to blood clots - you may remember their spat with AZ which they caused themselves by ordering the vaccine late. They also approved it later than the UK.

You write that Germany hasn't banned the AZ vaccine over the blood clot matter, maybe not but they were one of the main reasons for the public's suspicion of the AZ vaccine because of their previous stance on 0ver 65's.

To go further in relation to the EU's 'Union' and its current actions would take us off topic - which the moderators here have made clear, is not allowed.

I have nothing to gain by posting 'propaganda' against the EU - I wanted the UK to remain. However, what I've seen recently in relation to the Pandemic/AZ/Vaccines in general has illustrated to me at least, that the EU is not really a Union, they can't get their act together so individual countries go it alone.

Overall, it seems clear that all of the EU's problems with the AZ vaccine are politically motivated.  If you read through this thread and other sources, you will see that having read the reports, many people suspect the same.

I sincerely hope the EU stops this behaviour and gets their vaccination programme going for the sake of their citizens. The world's vaccine manufacturers have done an incredible job at providing effective protection against Covid 19 in record time.  Rather than get their lip down because the UK has done far better than them in rolling out their vaccine programme, the EU would be better off learning from it.

I criticise where criticism is due, I have no political allegiance that prevents me from speaking the truth. The UK made a complete mess of their response to the pandemic which has cost thousands of lives. Our Track and Trace programme has been nothing short of a very expensive joke (£37 Billion). However, the UK's vaccination programme so far, has been an outstanding success.

 

I did read your post, which is why after my quote from the EMA in the linked to article I said "Something you, yourself, admit!" 

You chose to exclude that from your quote of my post. Maybe that means you didn't read it?

The politicians in the countries concerned are acting on their own health department's advice; as is their right as sovereign nations; whether they be EU members or the two who are not!

Despite your lengthy self justification, you are trying to blame the EU for something which is patently not their fault.

[KhaoYai]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Despite your lengthy self justification, you are trying to blame the EU for something which is patently not their fault.

As I have already said - I believe this matter goes far deeper than the latest blood clot matter. The problems began when the EU claimed that the UK was getting more favourable treatment from Astra Zeneca.  That wasn't individual countries, that was the EU as a whole.

We are all in this together and we should all learn from each other.  Political differences and sour grapes should be set aside.

[7by7]

16 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

As I have already said - I believe this matter goes far deeper than the latest blood clot matter. The problems began when the EU claimed that the UK was getting more favourable treatment from Astra Zeneca.  That wasn't individual countries, that was the EU as a whole.

We are all in this together and we should all learn from each other.  Political differences and sour grapes should be set aside.

The facts prove it has nothing to do with EU sour grapes.

The manufacturers told the EU that due to production problems they could only supply less than half of the contracted doses; despite the EU paying AstraZeneca hundreds of millions of euros in advance in order to expedite production ahead of the vaccine's official approval.

Meanwhile, despite their claimed production problems, we were receiving all of our contracted supplies from the company's factory in Germany.

Little wonder that the EU were annoyed!

See Fact check: Is AstraZeneca in breach of its EU contract?