Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Arun Mai]

15 hours ago, rsskga said:

Hello Arun Mai, please see above for where you referenced being asked for additional docs.

 

Thanks to all for relaying your experiences and helpful tips!

 

I have an appointment at the US Embassy March 7. I'll report back after as to what they will/won't sign.

It seems the link doesn't work well.  When I click it it takes me to the post shown in the image file.   With respect to the driving licence, I don't recall the specifics, but what I can say is that it certainly wasn't one of the essential documents for my application.

 

Good luck at the Embassy with your documents.

[ecline]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:13 PM, DrJoy said:

MOI has not conducted any citizenship interviews since Sep 2022.

 

Definitely things are slow.

This is really discouraging :-(  My docs went to the MOI 8 months ago. I had hoped I would get my interview this year, but I guess that ain't gonna happen. Does anyone know how many times per year they conduct interviews normally?

[onthemoon]

2 hours ago, ecline said:

This is really discouraging ???? My docs went to the MOI 8 months ago. I had hoped I would get my interview this year, but I guess that ain't gonna happen. Does anyone know how many times per year they conduct interviews normally?

8 months? My documents were sent to MOI in April 2021. Still waiting.

[Neeranam]

 

2 hours ago, ecline said:

This is really discouraging ???? My docs went to the MOI 8 months ago. I had hoped I would get my interview this year, but I guess that ain't gonna happen. Does anyone know how many times per year they conduct interviews normally?

I would expect to wait about 18 months minimum from when your docs were sent to MoI until interview. This is by far the longest wait -  Jai yen yen.

[Arkady]

A friend sent me this list of documents required by the NIA for his upcoming video interview.  They want scans by email.

 

Nearly all the documents are of course already in the file that they have from SB and he was not told to update them, e.g. salary letter.  So presumably they just want more copies of what they already have for reasons unclear. I was asked to produced some of the same documents in my face to face interview with NIA.  I didn't have advanced warning but had brought them anyway.

 

The request for a driving licence by the NIA now seems a permanent feature.  Perhaps they want to check if the address on it is the same as on the tabien baan.  Under the new points system, perhaps they will be able to check, if any points have been deducted, as in the UK, but somehow I doubt that.

 

I am guessing that the corporate tax receipt for last year is only required where the applicant is a shareholder in their employer company, as in the general requirements. But it doesn't actually say that.

 

[yankee99]

26 minutes ago, Arkady said:

A friend sent me this list of documents required by the NIA for his upcoming video interview.  They want scans by email.

 

Nearly all the documents are of course already in the file that they have from SB and he was not told to update them, e.g. salary letter.  So presumably they just want more copies of what they already have for reasons unclear. I was asked to produced some of the same documents in my face to face interview with NIA.  I didn't have advanced warning but had brought them anyway.

 

The request for a driving licence by the NIA now seems a permanent feature.  Perhaps they want to check if the address on it is the same as on the tabien baan.  Under the new points system, perhaps they will be able to check, if any points have been deducted, as in the UK, but somehow I doubt that.

 

I am guessing that the corporate tax receipt for last year is only required where the applicant is a shareholder in their employer company, as in the general requirements. But it doesn't actually say that.

 

I guess the DL is only required if you have one?

[rsskga]

I made some YouTube playlists of each of the anthems. I find the official versions hard to learn from because the background instruments and chorus of voices muffles the pronunciation. Would love to collect additional recommendations if anyone has (a) favorite performance(s). Based on the difficulty I had finding soloists singing the National Anthem it seems the Thais have much less of a tradition of performers singing it in public than Americans, for instance, have of singing their anthem.

 

เพลงชาติไทย

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRHNDpJM_kWjQhNCHROJxfk-Hab6as2S8

 

สรรเสริญพระบารมี

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRHNDpJM_kWjHPmYspOjVIbTGIGlQcvxj

 

[onthemoon]

11 minutes ago, rsskga said:

I made some YouTube playlists of each of the anthems. I find the official versions hard to learn from because the background instruments and chorus of voices muffles the pronunciation. Would love to collect additional recommendations if anyone has (a) favorite performance(s). Based on the difficulty I had finding soloists singing the National Anthem it seems the Thais have much less of a tradition of performers singing it in public than Americans, for instance, have of singing their anthem.

 

เพลงชาติไทย

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRHNDpJM_kWjQhNCHROJxfk-Hab6as2S8

 

สรรเสริญพระบารมี

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRHNDpJM_kWjHPmYspOjVIbTGIGlQcvxj

 

These transcriptions helped me personally to pronounce the words correctly.

Sansoern Pre Barami Lyrics.docx Thai National Anthem Current lyrics.docx

Edited March 2, 2023 by onthemoon

[ecline]

19 hours ago, onthemoon said:

8 months? My documents were sent to MOI in April 2021. Still waiting.

Oh boy. I guess I will stop whinging now...

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, rsskga said:

I made some YouTube playlists of each of the anthems. I find the official versions hard to learn from because the background instruments and chorus of voices muffles the pronunciation. Would love to collect additional recommendations if anyone has (a) favorite performance(s). Based on the difficulty I had finding soloists singing the National Anthem it seems the Thais have much less of a tradition of performers singing it in public than Americans, for instance, have of singing their anthem.

 

เพลงชาติไทย

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRHNDpJM_kWjQhNCHROJxfk-Hab6as2S8

 

สรรเสริญพระบารมี

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRHNDpJM_kWjHPmYspOjVIbTGIGlQcvxj

 

Good stuff but you are lucky that you will not be asked to sing it. It is only required by applicants not married to Thais applying on the basis of PR.  For those that do have to sing, it is definitely one of the most challenging (and rewarding) aspects of the application.  Also challenging for SB and the interviewers at the MOI, as most applicants are pretty awful singers.

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, onthemoon said:

These transcriptions helped me personally to pronounce the words correctly.

Sansoern Pre Barami Lyrics.docx 15.52 kB · 5 downloads Thai National Anthem Current lyrics.docx 46.97 kB · 2 downloads

This is useful because some applicants have been asked the meaning of lines they have just sung in the MOI meeting. So its worth knowing the vocab, some of which is rather obscure and can't be found in Thai-English dictionaries, not even in the Mary Haas dictionary.

 

If you can read music, it is worth studying the vocal scores.  That helped me a lot in learning the phrasing.

[onthemoon]

27 minutes ago, Arkady said:

This is useful because some applicants have been asked the meaning of lines they have just sung in the MOI meeting. So its worth knowing the vocab, some of which is rather obscure and can't be found in Thai-English dictionaries, not even in the Mary Haas dictionary.

 

If you can read music, it is worth studying the vocal scores.  That helped me a lot in learning the phrasing.

You will be asked the meaning? OK, with the National Anthem that's not so difficult, but the Sansern Baramee uses Ratchasap, so that's a lot of vocabulary I'm not familiar with. Thanks for pointing this out.

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, onthemoon said:

You will be asked the meaning? OK, with the National Anthem that's not so difficult, but the Sansern Baramee uses Ratchasap, so that's a lot of vocabulary I'm not familiar with. Thanks for pointing this out.

I wasn't asked the meaning and I don't know how common this question is but I do know two people who were asked the meaning of one of the lines in the song they had just sung. One was actually asked what it meant and what feelings it evoked in her which was a real curved ball. They had already asked her to sing the songs 4 or 5 times because her singing and pronunciation were so poor. So she was virtually a driveling wreck by then and ready to withdraw her application to put an end to the torture. In my interviews there was a Chinese couple applying together who had really lousy Thai and they were also subjected to repeated singings which drove the officials in the room crazy. So best to have the singing down pat and know what the songs mean.

[ubonr1971]

3 hours ago, Arkady said:

Good stuff but you are lucky that you will not be asked to sing it. It is only required by applicants not married to Thais applying on the basis of PR.  For those that do have to sing, it is definitely one of the most challenging (and rewarding) aspects of the application.  Also challenging for SB and the interviewers at the MOI, as most applicants are pretty awful singers.

May I ask. you to confirm that if Im married to thai and applying for Citizenship then I dont have to sing at all?? Only conversational thai? What about reading or writing? 

[rsskga]

32 minutes ago, ubonr1971 said:

May I ask. you to confirm that if Im married to thai and applying for Citizenship then I dont have to sing at all?? Only conversational thai? What about reading or writing? 

It's not required for foreign wives applying through their Thai husbands. I believe all foreign men need to be prepared to sing as part of the application, unless they don't need the points associated with that requirement.

 

If memory serves me correctly, one of the wives who previously applied and was already granted citizenship was asked if she could sing the anthems... not because she was expected to but because the interviewer was simply curious. That's partly why I'm learning them even though I don't technically need to.

[Arkady]

35 minutes ago, rsskga said:

It's not required for foreign wives applying through their Thai husbands. I believe all foreign men need to be prepared to sing as part of the application, unless they don't need the points associated with that requirement.

 

If memory serves me correctly, one of the wives who previously applied and was already granted citizenship was asked if she could sing the anthems... not because she was expected to but because the interviewer was simply curious. That's partly why I'm learning them even though I don't technically need to.

I believe you are right that one of the female applicants applying as the wife of a Thai was asked if she could sing the songs - properly a searching question to assess willingness to assimilate, since all Thais should be able to sing the songs. Anyway, it is certainly a good idea to learn them from that perspective, even if you don't have to get them perfect.

 

You are also right in that male applicants married to Thais also don't need to sing but might need/want to offer to sing at SB but not the MOI to get more points.  Even though the songs are only worth 2 points, that could make all the difference to a borderline candidate. However, SB usually do their utmost to discourage married applicants from singing because they feel it's very difficult for foreigners and find it excruciating having to listen to most of them.  I insisted on singing at SB, despite their efforts to persuade me not to and later found I had to sing at the MOI as my marriage had not be registered long enough to qualify for the exemption. When I was sent up to the director who has an office upstairs at SB he spent about 15 minutes interviewing and chatting. Then he suddenly looked at his watch and apologised that he would not have time to hear me sing as he had to go to a meeting but expressed confidence my singing was good and he would approve it unheard. He obviously had an extreme aversion to listening to foreigners singing the anthems.  Luckily at the MOI all went well and I actually got a round of applause which I thought make it clear that the average standard of singing must have been extremely poor.

 

Hint: the Royal Anthem requires a rather broad vocal range, so the key is to start it off almost growling in a low enough key that you have enough range left to reach the highest notes without squeaking or having to drop an octave.

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, ubonr1971 said:

May I ask. you to confirm that if Im married to thai and applying for Citizenship then I dont have to sing at all?? Only conversational thai? What about reading or writing? 

The singing question has already been adequately addressed.

 

Reading and writing are not currently required by anyone but there are voluntary reading and writing tests which give 3 points for reading only and another 2 points for being able to write as well. Passing Thai language is only required for male or female applicants without Thai spouses applying with PR but male applicants with Thai wives have the option to do any of the tests and sing to boost their points. Generally speaking an intermediate knowledge of spoken Thai and no reading or writing is enough to get you through without a Thai spouse under existing regulations. I think only a small percentage of applications actually take the reading and writing tests.  I did and managed to get a perfect score in Thai language including singing which suggests the standard wasn't very high at all.

 

But here's the rub for those planning to apply with PR  in a couple of years time and those whose points may be borderline. The law doesn't actually specify the requirements for Thai language.  It just says in Section 10.5 "having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations". The current 1967 regulations are being revised and new ministerial regulations are due to be published this year. One of the things the MOI said needed to be more rigorous in the new regulations was language testing which is planned to be upgraded with assistance from Chulalongkorn University.  It is as yet unknown how rigorous the new testing will be or when it will come into effect. 

[qualtrough]

Married to a Thai so I wasn't required to sing the anthem. I have a terrible singing voice, so if I had been required to sing the anthem I  probably would have been rejected and expelled from the country for damaging the national identity.

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, qualtrough said:

Married to a Thai so I wasn't required to sing the anthem. I have a terrible singing voice, so if I had been required to sing the anthem I  probably would have been rejected and expelled from the country for damaging the national identity.

I had to wait for several hours for my turn to sing at the MOI and during that time the interviewers went off and had lunch but there was nowhere for us to have lunch in the old building but we were given some cakes. Of course this was fairly nerve wracking but the staff in the office I was waiting in were very considerate and tried to calm my nerves saying the committee was very jai dee and I should have no problem as I could speak Thai keng, unlike most of the others (mainly Chinese and Indian with pretty fruity accents that were difficult to understand).  It is supposed to be a test of Thai language ability, not of musical ability, and they gave me the impression that most of those failed were more for appalling pronounciation rather than for bad singing. But getting the phrasing right is also important with perfect pitch being the least important criteria. Few Thais seem able to sing these songs unaccompainied without hitting some bum notes each time, including Mrs Dog, although she denies that vehemently. Listening to the applicants singing must be a truly horrible job for anyone with a gram of musical sensitivity. 

[Arun Mai]

On 3/1/2023 at 1:16 PM, ecline said:

This is really discouraging ???? My docs went to the MOI 8 months ago. I had hoped I would get my interview this year, but I guess that ain't gonna happen. Does anyone know how many times per year they conduct interviews normally?

My docs went to MOI on 1st July 2022.  Maybe we're on the same list?

[ecline]

16 hours ago, Arun Mai said:

My docs went to MOI on 1st July 2022.  Maybe we're on the same list?

Could well be. I think mine went closer to the middle of July

[DrJoy]

On 3/4/2023 at 9:04 AM, ecline said:

Could well be. I think mine went closer to the middle of July

Documents are sent in a batch of 20 -30 people.

They are not sent one by one, so you both must be in the same batch.

[Arun Mai]

12 hours ago, DrJoy said:

Documents are sent in a batch of 20 -30 people.

They are not sent one by one, so you both must be in the same batch.

Yes, I think that is very likely also.

[Thomas KH]

On 10/10/2022 at 3:23 PM, qualtrough said:

If push came to shove I can see giving up my US citizenship.

Oh the joys of applying for visas for travel to most first world countries. A once in a lifetime experience. Moments to cherish and treasure.

 

Seriously, don't.

[yankee99]

10 minutes ago, Thomas KH said:

Oh the joys of applying for visas for travel to most first world countries. A once in a lifetime experience. Moments to cherish and treasure.

 

Seriously, don't.

Im sure some people dont have a desire to travel the world 

[OJAS]

7 hours ago, yankee99 said:

Im sure some people dont have a desire to travel the world 

But they might nevertheless need to make an emergency trip back to their home country at short notice because of (e.g.) a seriously ill relative there. I'm sure that they wouldn't welcome having to overcome the bureaucratic hurdles placed in the way of visiting Thai nationals by their home country in such circumstances! So definitely best to hang on to your home country citizenship if at all possible IMHO, no matter how unlikely such a situation might appear in your case - until you're faced with it, of course!

Edited March 6, 2023 by OJAS

[Dogmatix]

4 hours ago, OJAS said:

But they might nevertheless need to make an emergency trip back to their home country at short notice because of (e.g.) a seriously ill relative there. I'm sure that they wouldn't welcome having to overcome the bureaucratic hurdles placed in the way of visiting Thai nationals by their home country in such circumstances! So definitely best to hang on to your home country citizenship if at all possible IMHO, no matter how unlikely such a situation might appear in your case - until you're faced with it, of course!

A 1st world passport is a nice thing to have in your back pocket, even if you don't feel an imminent need for it.

[qualtrough]

On 3/6/2023 at 9:44 AM, Thomas KH said:

Oh the joys of applying for visas for travel to most first world countries. A once in a lifetime experience. Moments to cherish and treasure.

 

Seriously, don't.

I said 'If push came to shove', meaning that if I was forced to make a choice. I have no home, no job, no friends, nothing in the US save my siblings. It would make no sense for me to sacrifice my Thai passport for the US. YMMV

[GarryP]

1 minute ago, qualtrough said:

I said 'If push came to shove', meaning that if I was forced to make a choice. I have no home, no job, no friends, nothing in the US save my siblings. It would make no sense for me to sacrifice my Thai passport for the US. YMMV

I'm the same as you. Lived here for 40 years so no longer any real ties back to the UK. A no brainer really. 

[Arkady]

UK nationality, unlike US nationality, can be renounced and theoretically then recovered at a cost but no idea how straightforward the process would be. The home office delights in keeping Brits and their dependents out of the UK these days.